Robert Cray sound - why not so common?

[ramseybella]

Saw him at Janus Landing in St. Petersburg, FL 1980's Playing with a pair of Matchless club 30's I think, sounding stunning at this small gig.

[frogger]

A Strat is all about expression and it takes fine playing skills to make it sing. You can't hide behind a Strat or Tele if your chops aren't dead on. Robert Cray is a complete artist and plays what is needed for his songs and nothing else. A clean tone, thoughtful lyrics, and soul, is what it's all about. Robert is a refreshing player in this universe of effect laden, shred crazy, overdriven mayhem and I highly regard him as a major blues artist.

[bdam123]

I'm a fan of Cray's playing but his tone sucks. He's in the same category as Buddy Guy to me when it comes to tone. Thin.

[WYfish]

I've got tickets to see Cray here in town on Friday. I'm pretty excited. I've heard from others that he puts on a great show.

[ramseybella]

Originally Posted by WYfish

I've got tickets to see Cray here in town on Friday. I'm pretty excited. I've heard from others that he puts on a great show.

Yes he does!!

[Flashback]

Originally Posted by bdam123

I'm a fan of Cray's playing but his tone sucks. He's in the same category as Buddy Guy to me when it comes to tone. Thin.

I have to agree with this. Though his tone on "time makes two" is pretty full. LIVE his tone sounds very frail and thin. Not my favorite. Really love his style as a player and his singing is TOP NOTCH. He just needs to sit down and work on that tone!

[charlie chitlin]

I remember reading an interview with Jimmie Vaughan where he said, "If you don't like Robert Cray, you don't like Blues."
It kind of bummed me out, because I really like JV, and have been a Blues player for over 30 years, but Cray does nothing for me. Especially his guitar tone.
I guess it's all personal preference.
I'm not a big distortion guy, but I like a fat tone...I can't imagine picking behind the bridge pickup like in the 12-year-old boy clip.

[Tonemaster]

How can you love Frender's and not love Robert's tone??

T.

[tjalla]

Originally Posted by charlie chitlin

I'm not a big distortion guy, but I like a fat tone...I can't imagine picking behind the bridge pickup like in the 12-year-old boy clip.

Charlie... you can't have missed this in 30 years of blues playing?! Digging in behind or around the bridge pickup is where the fat's at! Ronnie Earl, Jimmie Vaughan, Duke Robillard - they all do it. Lay into it with a cranked amp, and you get a pure, strong fundamental tone with tons of fat attack. Bright yes, but the midrange punch that comes with it balances it out.

Granted, Cray does have extra penchant for the the treble-end of the spectrum, but I think its when he picks hard closer to the neck that he gets that signature quack, where the string moves away from producing the fundamental to producing more overtones.

[pullchord]

Robert Cray is an acquired taste. Took me awhile to 'get it', but when I did, I couldn't get enough. First time I heard him, I was disappointed. I was expecting the typical high energy, sweating, yelling, bluesman playing with the typical distorted Strat sound. This guy comes out and plays with the cleanest, purest tone I've ever heard, and sings like Sam Cook. Bought his CD. By the time I finished listening, I realized what had gone completely over my head. First, Cray could have made it as a singer without ever playing a note, his voice is so good. His songs are unlike anything else out there. But his playing....well, I found myself NOT going for the pedal when my solo came around on stage. Playing a Strat clean like that puts you in a whole new world. You have to pick every note for it to be heard, and that alone slows you down. You stop doing the gymnastics - the hammer-ons and the pull-offs - and start playing NOTES. You really have to work to make those notes sustain, but that effort makes for much more soulful and expressive playing. A short footnote about RC. I was playing rhythm for Coco Montoya at a show where we were opening for Cray and I got to meet him backstage. What a gentleman and a class-act he is!

[nosuch]

Love Robert Crays Playing and sound, but honestly I think it's the man, not the guitar that makes it. the strat and the amps seem to emphasize what his head and his hands are doing. IMHO.

[pullchord]

Amen, Nosuch. As Les Paul once said, "I'll get my sound...doesn't matter what mic or amp or guitar you give me...". In the 20 minutes I spent in Cray's company backstage, not once did the conversation ever include even a word about gear, amps, guitars, etc. It truly is all in the hands...and soul.

[tjalla]

Originally Posted by pullchord

not once did the conversation ever include even a word about gear, amps, guitars, etc. Ii truly is all in the hands...and soul.

[lupowitz]

Originally Posted by Tonemaster

Playing clean separates the men from the boys.

T.

You're wrong. Pubic hair does it.

[Roli]

Originally Posted by lupowitz

You're wrong. Pubic hair does it.

Tell that to my wife.

[tjalla]

Um... I hope this thread does end on that note, chaps!

Back to Robert, I've been meaning to pickup "Live from across the pond" - any thoughts on that CD? I've heard he stretches out alot more on that album than in studio.

[E5RSY]

I'm in the camp that, while a fan at one time, find his tone somewhat sterile and boring.

His best tone ever, in my opinion, is on "Showdown!" with Albert Collins and Johnny Copeland. It actually as some grit and balls to it. Love that record. Highly recommended!

Scott

[nosuch]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KjQNzCUYE9Y

he seems to change from totally clean to rather dirty without stepping on a pedal or something. I use to do that with my blues junior but does not have such a range (it's more just a bit of dirt to some dirt but there could be more, if you know what I mean). any idea how he sets up his controls to achieve that range?

[WYfish]

nosuch, after seeing him last week, I thought the same thing. I was expecting nothing but clean tones, but he had a lot of louder, slighly overdriven tone (which I like). Anybody know if he's got that midboost thing in his guitar that clapton and buddy guy use? Or maybe he's really using his volume knob?

[boris bubbanov]

I got this album from 2003, "Time Will Tell" the other day and the sounds are gorgeous.

I have a theory; that Robert Cray favors sweet, clean tones sometimes to take fuller advantage of his voice. Excellent singing voice, and he's not a shouter or a croaker and so the dirty guitar sounds we use to cover up the inadequacies of our voices - he does not do that (except on occasion) and should not do much of that.

I fully agree, his voice alone would carry him.

I find it weird that he pairs with Buddy Guy for touring purposes, in a way. Buddy is more and more showmanship and flurries of activity to drive up the energy level of the crowd. Mr. Cray is about relaxing and enjoying the ride.

[Tonemaster]

I think a lot of his tone comes from the fact that its a hardtail as well. His earlier tones were a regular vintage Strat bridge. Also the Vibroking in conjunctgion with the Matchless would give quite a bit of grit to the tone when you dig in. Most of it is definitely him tho.

T.

[nosuch]

while we're at it:

[Tonemaster]

Man, dig the Fro!! Is that a young Curtis Salgado with him on harp??

T.

[nosuch]

yep.
this is where I found it: http://content.cdlib.org/view%3Bjses...text&brand=oac

[tjalla]

This pic just made my day. The fro, the SG(!) and not to mention Richard Cousins looking uber

[68 Shovelhead]

Originally Posted by bdam123

I'm a fan of Cray's playing but his tone sucks. He's in the same category as Buddy Guy to me when it comes to tone. Thin.

I feel the same about Robert, outstanding player, excellent singer and his songs are top notch, but his tone also leaves me cold much of the time.
Buddy Guy sounds thin on record, but has killer tone live, in fact his live sound is about as good as it gets IMO.

[charlie chitlin]

Originally Posted by tjalla

Charlie... you can't have missed this in 30 years of blues playing?! Digging in behind or around the bridge pickup is where the fat's at! Ronnie Earl, Jimmie Vaughan, Duke Robillard - they all do it. Lay into it with a cranked amp, and you get a pure, strong fundamental tone with tons of fat attack. Bright yes, but the midrange punch that comes with it balances it out.

Granted, Cray does have extra penchant for the the treble-end of the spectrum, but I think its when he picks hard closer to the neck that he gets that signature quack, where the string moves away from producing the fundamental to producing more overtones.

I hear ya...I get back there occasionally...maybe over the bridge pickup, but I doubt behind it. More for an effect...a lick or a passage, or even a scratchy rhythm sound.
I couldn't live there for any length of time.

[fretbuzzard]

Definitely something to this. I imagine that if most of us spent as much time working on our musicianship as we spend turning knobs and chasing tone (oh, and posting on forums), then there would be a lot more great music in the world. I'm not saying tone is unimportant, I just imagine someone like Robert Cray spending about as much time fiddling with equipment as most of us spend on our playing, if you know what I mean

Originally Posted by pullchord

Robert Cray is an acquired taste. Took me awhile to 'get it', but when I did, I couldn't get enough. First time I heard him, I was disappointed. I was expecting the typical high energy, sweating, yelling, bluesman playing with the typical distorted Strat sound. This guy comes out and plays with the cleanest, purest tone I've ever heard, and sings like Sam Cook. Bought his CD. By the time I finished listening, I realized what had gone completely over my head. First, Cray could have made it as a singer without ever playing a note, his voice is so good. His songs are unlike anything else out there. But his playing....well, I found myself NOT going for the pedal when my solo came around on stage. Playing a Strat clean like that puts you in a whole new world. You have to pick every note for it to be heard, and that alone slows you down. You stop doing the gymnastics - the hammer-ons and the pull-offs - and start playing NOTES. You really have to work to make those notes sustain, but that effort makes for much more soulful and expressive playing. A short footnote about RC. I was playing rhythm for Coco Montoya at a show where we were opening for Cray and I got to meet him backstage. What a gentleman and a class-act he is!

[tjalla]

Originally Posted by charlie chitlin

I hear ya...I get back there occasionally...maybe over the bridge pickup, but I doubt behind it. More for an effect...a lick or a passage, or even a scratchy rhythm sound.
I couldn't live there for any length of time.

Fair enough. RC was pretty much as far back as he could go in that clip! Yea, I do tend to pick over, or just in front of, the bridge PU.

Way back *does* work good for a faux T-Bone using the neck PU.

Fretbuzzard - I think the difference is these guys know what they like to hear from their playing, and when they find a guitar and/or amp that brings that out best, and most naturally/intuitively, they stick with it. Their sound is not defined, but rather optimised, by the instruments they play.

Too often we are looking find that next piece of the 'tone-chain' that will get us our signature sound, whereas that's kinda putting the cart before the horse.

Just by .02

[TelZilla]

I'm glad this thread reappeared, just to watch tjalla's clip again. I don't spend a lot of time trying to figure out what he's doin' effects-wise, but I dig it the most. It might be thin, but sometimes thin is in.

All this talk about "my tone" sometimes confuses me. Why do I have to have one tone? I have a Tele, a Strat, and an LP, and I'd have something Gretschy and an ES if I had the dough.

Isn't it fun to play with all kinds of tones? Sometimes a song seems to call for the fattest neck pickup LP sound with tons of dirt, and sometimes I want thin, clean, and stingy. I don't ever want to have one sound all night.

[nosuch]

seems like some are looking for "their" sound, some look for all kind of sounds, some play in top 40 band and have to replicate what's on the record as good as they can.. IMHO RC uses a variety of sounds, too: from clean to semi-dirty, sometimes he utilizes some delay, some tremolo. He seems to have fun trying things just like all the rest of us.

[petebradt]

Why imitate someone else's sound? I can think of better things to do with a guitar and amp than imitate someone else.

[charlie chitlin]

Originally Posted by tjalla

Way back *does* work good for a faux T-Bone using the neck PU.

Yer givin' away my secrets!
Pick close to the bridge and do half-step bends.
Gives that old 'thick strings' sound.
I use the middle pickup on the 3 P-90 Epi, though.
Or the ONLY pickup on the ES-225.

[tjalla]

Heheh. Blame Duke and Ronnie for getting folks hip to that

Would love to hear any clips of RC playing something Gibson-esque... to see what that might sound like.

[Roli]

Originally Posted by tjalla

Heheh. Blame Duke and Ronnie for getting folks hip to that

Would love to hear any clips of RC playing something Gibson-esque... to see what that might sound like.

There used to be a video on youtube where he played a 335. He sounded great, but with less definition. Too bad it's no longer up there.

[Zillinois]

Originally Posted by Adam Waldron

The Cray sound is more than just the quack, its his attitude (Albert Collins a major influence on him) and right hand attack. He digs in big time!

Adam

Another aspect of his playing/tone is the picking position. When you have you gear setup properly, you can hear a big difference picking closer to the bridge or closer to the neck (or anywhere in between!), especially with each diffferent pickup, and it almost gives you a natural flanger like effect.

[Del Pickup]

Interesting that people are commenting on Mr Cray's tone being 'thin and sterile'. I seem to recall that this was also claimed about Jimmie Vaughan's tone in the past - and he's another player who I rate highly.

I think the thing is that everyone's attuned to searching for big fat tones rather than anything else and anyone who doesn't get the fat tones just isn't in the right tone field.

Did anyone ever compare BB King's Gibson tone to Albert Collin's ice pick tone and describe one as good and the other as bad? No, they were just different - and that's what Mr Cray has achieved for himself.

Good on him.........

[68 Shovelhead]

Originally Posted by Del Pickup

Interesting that people are commenting on Mr Cray's tone being 'thin and sterile'. I seem to recall that this was also claimed about Jimmie Vaughan's tone in the past - and he's another player who I rate highly.

I think the thing is that everyone's attuned to searching for big fat tones rather than anything else and anyone who doesn't get the fat tones just isn't in the right tone field.

Did anyone ever compare BB King's Gibson tone to Albert Collin's ice pick tone and describe one as good and the other as bad? No, they were just different - and that's what Mr Cray has achieved for himself.

Good on him.........

I would say Jimmy Vaughan is another good example of an excellent player who's tone is usually pretty uninspiring, at least to me. Though I have heard some recordings of Jimmy where he gets a fantastic tone.
Tone is very subjective, it doesn't have to be fat to be good, but I think it does need to have some dimension to it.
Clarence "Gatemouth" Brown is an example of someone who usually had a clear somewhat bright sound, often using capo's. His sound is very 3 dimensional to me, I think much of Gatemouths sound is the way he picks with his fingers, smooth but percussive. JV has a very plinky way of using his fingers that IMO doesn't usually compliment his gear settings. No offense intended by my opinions here, it's just my opinion.

[maxsmith]

I think part of the reason more players don't "come clean" with their tone in the blues is that, for a generation, SRV has pretty much defined what a blues player is supposed to sound like, for musicians and civilians alike - and a generation before that it was Clapton, Johnny Winter, Mick Taylor, Hendrix, and all the blues rockers of the '60s and '70s ,et all, who with their more cranked up, high wattage and (often aided by boosters and overdrive pedals) fat rich sustained tones defined the sound of the blues before most of white America ever heard of T-Bone Walker and Muddy Waters and Hubert Sumlin and Robert Lockwood and Buddy Guy - all of whom used very clean sounds relative to what passes as an "appropriate" blues tone today.

You can even hear the difference in the tones of Buddy Guy, Albert King, B.B. King, Freddie King and Otis Rush before and after the (mostly white) blues explosion of the late '60s/early '70s - they all played with cleaner tones in their earlier days and cranked it later when they found themselves on the bill with Cream or Santana or Hendrix.

But even more than the English fellows and Mr. Winter - I think the majority of guitarists and non-guitarists today still view SRV's TubeScreamer-driven lead tones as the definition of blues guitar tone. And most people don't dig back 25 to 30 years before Stevie (B.S.R.V.?) and really hear the players who inspired and educated him.

And you can't get much further from SRV's tone than Robert Cray, and that's why I have so much respect for RC - he plays it the way he hears it - I'll bet he doesn't even own an overdrive pedal, much less some $400 handwired TS808 clone.

Don't get me wrong - SRV is beautiful - but so was T-Bone - there's room for many tones in the blues tent.

I read a quote from Pat Metheny where he mentioned that Gary Burton came from the last generation of jazz musicians where having your own sound was a requirement, not an option, or words to that effect - and I think his point applies to the blues, too - back in the early days of electric blues, everyone was trying to find their own sound - their own identity - now it seems everyone's trying to scramble to sound as much as everybody else as they can - and most of those roads lead back to SRV, until someone new comes along (and I don't think we've seen him or her yet) to redefine and reinvigorate the blues the way he did in the '80s.

Max

[nosuch]

I got a video of Cray from the 2005/06 Tour (Robert Cray in Europe). He plays with a lot of "cranked" tones, those who remember his "über-clean" sound from the 90s should take a listen to his recent work. He ain't got a "400 bucks screamer" but he utilizes these 2000+ $ Matchless heads. ;-)

Max, you're right that the british blues explosion pretty much defined how most "blues"-guitarists would like to sound today (which IMHO is a bit old fashioned) - as soon as they take a solo they step on something (pedal, channel switching) to give them that super sustaining, midrangy, overdriven, loud sound. sometimes I wish they would not. To me it sounds very generic, lacks originality. Last night I played a session and invited a guitar player I did not know before. I asked him if he would like to sing a couple of songs to and when he mentionied "I'm walking" I thought: watch out. He sure knew how to play and played tasty and with feeling, decent timing and everything. But each time he took a solo he stepped on a switch and I could hardly hear anything else but him and as it goes, the band got louder and louder as we proceeded. I was using a SF Super, started on 6 and ended on 10 just to hear myself! Ouch!

I plead for cleaner sounds because:
You are hearing your fellow musicians better.
It leaves more space for the singer (saxophones, harps)
You are forced to play with an exact timing and give every note a "meaning"
Players sound more like themselves, different guitars can be distinguished.

I admit that I am pretty tired of all the old farts pretending to play the blues but never listened to anything original but clapton or (ouch!) gary moore. I am tired of the guys who disguise their poor timing and intonation by sheer distortion. I am tired of not hearing the band anytime these guys take a solo ...

Yesterday it was an nice guy and he sure knew to play (still his timing was better when he played clean rhythm and became somehow sloppy as soon as he switched to "drive"), but what happened when I played a slow blues and didn't cue him to solo (I just didn't want to hear a "rock-solo" in Muddy's Long Distance Call)?
Guess what? He complained, so I told him "dude, it's not about solos, it's communication, playing together, it's about groove". I let him play 3 choruses in the next song. Jesus!

;-)