I shimmed my neck...and I feel shame

DougF · August 23rd, 2008, 12:31 PM

My Strat body and neck are not"native" to one another and I just couldn't get the action down through truss rod and saddle adjustments. At a loss what to do, I stuck half a razor blade in as a shim, and man now the action is great and she sounds sweet. I'm just curious as to how prevalent shimming is, and do any Strats come from the factory that way. I liken it to buying my kids braces for their teeth.

MarkyMayhem · August 23rd, 2008, 12:36 PM

so friggin what? feel no shame buddy, tons of strats and teles come shimmed right from the getgo.. you've got plenty of neck/body contact with a thin razor blade shim, and I guess the hardness should be better than a hunk o' bizness card for 'transfering vibrations' between the body and neck..

I've always used business cards and never noticed a tonal change..

YMMV, but probablly won't

RodeoTex · August 23rd, 2008, 01:13 PM

No shame there. Since you've already done all other adjustments that is the only alternative left, and yes, I too have seen plenty of factory shims in guitars.
I'd never thought of a razor blade but that sounds like a good choice.

RodeoTex · August 23rd, 2008, 01:14 PM

Dang, I just noticed that that last post was 1000th. I really wanted to say something really profound on the 1000th...

refin · August 23rd, 2008, 01:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RodeoTex

Dang, I just noticed that that last post was 1000th. I really wanted to say something really profound on the 1000th...

Go back and edit.

wilkat1 · August 23rd, 2008, 01:43 PM

I've got a slice of business card under the neck of my '69 Tele and it plays just like I want it to. No shame whatsoever.

robt57 · August 23rd, 2008, 02:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RodeoTex

Dang, I just noticed that that last post was 1000th. I really wanted to say something really profound on the 1000th...

You actually have. When someone feels ashamed to make an instrument play properly at the expense of the vanity of not having a perfect situation as far as setup goes.

I was in a music store a when I first moved to TN 2002 and a kid had a tele with a old fender neck he landed and ASSEMBLED himself a guitar he was quite proud of. The fit was terrible, more space than I ever have seen.

He proudly asked me to play it and tell him what I thought. He had heard me Strat shopping, hopping from Strat to Strat amp to amp for probably 45 minutes. I played his guitar and could not put it down, felt great and sounded great.

Built my 1st tele shortly after. One of the reasons my Strat to Tele ratio is biased to Teles? Maybe.. One of the many. ;)

So if I may suggest: Keep your eye on the right ball!!

Ronkirn · August 23rd, 2008, 06:55 PM

Quote:

Keep your eye on the right ball!!

That about sums what I was gonna say... it's your guitar, it's your fingers, if one doesn't feel right in the other, somethings gotta happen... if it's a razor blade in the neck pocket...so be it. The only people that would diss such an improvement, really have nothing to say worth listening to I would think.
Ron Kirn

Telarkaster · August 23rd, 2008, 07:11 PM

You do that, you go to the box, 2 minutes by yourself, and ... you feel shame.

And then you get free.

thaus · August 23rd, 2008, 08:48 PM

Doesn't the little Fender manual that comes with all new Fender guitars say that you should shim the neck? No shame in that then.............

rjhalsey · August 24th, 2008, 02:26 AM

Hell! I use guitar picks, slices of business cards, strips of sand paper. What ever works. I have seen plenty of shims installed from the factory.

Stratsrgood · August 24th, 2008, 04:30 AM

I nearly always shim, when I first pick up the guitar I look at where the bridge saddles are and then decide which end of the neck pocket is going to get it!
I dont like the screws standing too high, and I dont like them going out the bottom either. No shame in shimming.

play_loud · August 24th, 2008, 04:35 AM

I think I feel more ashamed for not knowing what 'shimming' is.. I could just quietly Google it while no one is watching.. But for some reason I feel obligated to publically humiliate myself today.

Anyone care to explain?

morroben · August 24th, 2008, 04:42 AM

Ideally a guitar shouldn't need a shim, but if it does it does. No shame in making a guitar play better.

viking · August 24th, 2008, 07:09 AM

Play Loud , one of the greatest things when dealing with a bolt-on neck , is that you are able to put a shim under the neck in about 5 minutes. A shim will alter the angle of the neck related to the body. Some nit pickers claim that it gives the guitar less sustain , " perfect neck pocket fit " blah-blah-blah....Its a really neat way to get the angle of the neck perfect , and as others have said it is often done right from the factory.

Ronkirn · August 24th, 2008, 09:47 AM

Shimming is placing a small sliver of whatever in the neck pocket. I use maple veneer, in the neck pocket to create an angle as the neck meets the body.

The way Leo designed the guitar, the neck and body’s axis are parallel to each other. Or to visualize it, if the neck is perfectly straight, a straight edge placed down the frets would be parallel with the surface of the body. The shim creates a slight angle.

The angle has several advantages. It allows the bridge to be elevated, giving more relief over the pickguard, many prefer this additional space. On those guitars with a Tremolo it allows the trem unit to be raised giving more “room” for dive bombing. But the biggie.. it can be a valuable tool for tone modification.

As the strings meet the bridge, the angle at which they do so can be altered to increase, or reduce the downward force each string applies to the saddle. On a tremolo it’s not a major issue due to the way the overall tension is channeled into the body, through the tremolo posts. On a hard tail, or a Tele, the force enters the body directly downward from the string pressing down on the saddle, it in turn pressing down on the bridge, which is screwed directly to the body. Increasing the angle of the neck forces the downward force to be increased. This can influence the overall voice of the guitar, either way, good or badly.

The optimum angle is a crack less than one degree, but it’s all a matter of personal preference as it relates to what you want to hear and feel and no one should make you feel diminished simply because you used the same method so many have used for so many years to “fine tune” your instrument.

Ron Kirn

boris bubbanov · August 26th, 2008, 05:04 PM

I use chewing gum, or flower petals.

Driving yer geetar around with a sonic fence on it is like driving a car every day with one of those mini-donut spares on it. It is remedial, and it is an effort to compensate for pieces that don't fit like they should.

I saw some unfortunate day late dollar short lady driving a Saturn with not one, not two but three of those mini-spares on there.

I guess she thought she was saving gas or something.

If you must shim, please use what Mr. Kirn uses. Dissimilar materials damp out resonances going through the guitar. You get dead spots, you get a bland sounding guitar, IMO.

e-merlin · August 26th, 2008, 06:21 PM

Someone on this board has as his signature, "There's nothing wrong with a proper repair." A shim is a proper repair.

aznrambo481 · August 26th, 2008, 06:33 PM

Feel no shame about the razor blade repair... just feel the SHAVE

play_loud · August 26th, 2008, 09:25 PM

vking and Ronkirn, thank you so much! That's probably a better explanation then I was viable to find anywhere else!

Cheers.
Chris

Ron S · August 27th, 2008, 08:34 AM

I have probably 3-4 business cards worth of material in and around the neck of my '77 a) so I don't have to use the micro-tilt (creates a rising tongue) and b) so the neck doesn't move from side to side.

I have no shame! But then that's the story of my life

IMHO my guitar sounds great and certainly has enough sustain for me (I mean, how long do notes have to go on for exactly, Gary Moore has never really done it for me* LOL)

* Disclaimer: This is no way meant to instigate a debate on the merits of Gary Moore and/or his sustain, albeit challenging Nigel Tufnels.

z8894 · August 27th, 2008, 08:46 AM

Say it loud, I shim and I'm proud.

buddastrat · August 27th, 2008, 12:19 PM

That's the beauty of a strat or tele. Tweak 'em just right. Can't do that on a Gibson.

Telarkaster · August 27th, 2008, 11:01 PM

Dougf, better to have a guitar that's playable than a unshimmed guitar that you can't play.

I really doubt anyone can tell if a guitar has been shimmed or not in a blind test. At least not with bass and drums blasting in the same room...

Also, to answer your question: yes, I have heard of guitars coming from the Fender factory like that, but only anecdotally and not first hand.

A.B.Negative · September 3rd, 2008, 05:26 AM

Nearly every bolt-on neck guitar I've owned has needed a shim, usually because of the grub screws sticking out of the bridge saddles.

If you can put up with the side of your hand being lacerated every time you palm mute or you're prepared to shorten each grub screw so they don't protrude, that's up to you.

I've not noticed any difference in tone after shimming but the shimmed guitars are more comfortable to play and I do like some air under my strings so I've got room to dig in with my pick.

DougF · September 3rd, 2008, 10:56 PM

Thanks for all the replies. I think my neck might be a tad bit defective, I've turned the truss rod all the way clockwise but it doesn't seem to straighten quite enough to lower the action sufficiently. Compounding the problem was I bought a Callaham bridge, which is great, but has extra long grub screws that stick out a little farther than the stock fender ones, so lowering the action on the saddles really caused the screws to stick out. So besides the razor blade shim in the neck I also stripped the paint off of a saws-all blade,cut it down to size, and just as an experiment used it as a back plate on my bridge pickup (cs 54's). It sounded so good I left it on. I would die of embarrasment if a real guitar tech ever took my baby apart. But it sounds great and thats all I care about. And no jokes from you wags about how SHARP my guitar is...I've read enough posts to know the level of humor around here! :)

August 23rd, 2008, 12:31 PM	#1 (permalink)
DougF Tele-Meister Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Southern Minnesota Age: 43 Posts: 114	I shimmed my neck...and I feel shame My Strat body and neck are not"native" to one another and I just couldn't get the action down through truss rod and saddle adjustments. At a loss what to do, I stuck half a razor blade in as a shim, and man now the action is great and she sounds sweet. I'm just curious as to how prevalent shimming is, and do any Strats come from the factory that way. I liken it to buying my kids braces for their teeth.

August 23rd, 2008, 01:13 PM	#3 (permalink)
RodeoTex Tele-Afflicted Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 1,284	No shame there. Since you've already done all other adjustments that is the only alternative left, and yes, I too have seen plenty of factory shims in guitars. I'd never thought of a razor blade but that sounds like a good choice. __________________ Turn it on, turn it up, turn me loose.

August 23rd, 2008, 01:14 PM	#4 (permalink)
RodeoTex Tele-Afflicted Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 1,284	Dang, I just noticed that that last post was 1000th. I really wanted to say something really profound on the 1000th... __________________ Turn it on, turn it up, turn me loose.

August 23rd, 2008, 01:43 PM	#6 (permalink)
wilkat1 Tele-Afflicted Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: So. Illinois Age: 40 Posts: 1,554 20 Photos	I've got a slice of business card under the neck of my '69 Tele and it plays just like I want it to. No shame whatsoever. __________________ MySpace "That number don't mean nothing to me if the guitar don't sound right." - Buddy Guy on the year a guitar was manufactured.

August 24th, 2008, 09:47 AM	#16 (permalink)
Ronkirn Friend of Leo's Join Date: May 2003 Location: Jacksonville, FL Age: 62 Posts: 2,738	Shimming is placing a small sliver of whatever in the neck pocket. I use maple veneer, in the neck pocket to create an angle as the neck meets the body. The way Leo designed the guitar, the neck and body’s axis are parallel to each other. Or to visualize it, if the neck is perfectly straight, a straight edge placed down the frets would be parallel with the surface of the body. The shim creates a slight angle. The angle has several advantages. It allows the bridge to be elevated, giving more relief over the pickguard, many prefer this additional space. On those guitars with a Tremolo it allows the trem unit to be raised giving more “room” for dive bombing. But the biggie.. it can be a valuable tool for tone modification. As the strings meet the bridge, the angle at which they do so can be altered to increase, or reduce the downward force each string applies to the saddle. On a tremolo it’s not a major issue due to the way the overall tension is channeled into the body, through the tremolo posts. On a hard tail, or a Tele, the force enters the body directly downward from the string pressing down on the saddle, it in turn pressing down on the bridge, which is screwed directly to the body. Increasing the angle of the neck forces the downward force to be increased. This can influence the overall voice of the guitar, either way, good or badly. The optimum angle is a crack less than one degree, but it’s all a matter of personal preference as it relates to what you want to hear and feel and no one should make you feel diminished simply because you used the same method so many have used for so many years to “fine tune” your instrument. Ron Kirn __________________ A government big enough to give you everything you want, is strong enough to take everything you have. – Thomas Jefferson Just because you do not take an interest in politics doesn't mean politics won't take an interest in you! -Pericles (430 B.C.)

August 23rd, 2008, 12:36 PM	#2 (permalink)
MarkyMayhem TDPRI Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: St. Louis, MO Age: 26 Posts: 56	so friggin what? feel no shame buddy, tons of strats and teles come shimmed right from the getgo.. you've got plenty of neck/body contact with a thin razor blade shim, and I guess the hardness should be better than a hunk o' bizness card for 'transfering vibrations' between the body and neck.. I've always used business cards and never noticed a tonal change.. YMMV, but probablly won't

August 23rd, 2008, 07:11 PM	#9 (permalink)
Telarkaster Tele-Afflicted Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Montreal Quebec Canada Posts: 1,785	You do that, you go to the box, 2 minutes by yourself, and ... you feel shame. And then you get free.

August 23rd, 2008, 08:48 PM	#10 (permalink)
thaus Tele-Meister Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Canada Posts: 479	Doesn't the little Fender manual that comes with all new Fender guitars say that you should shim the neck? No shame in that then.............

August 24th, 2008, 02:26 AM	#11 (permalink)
rjhalsey TDPRI Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Ohio Age: 47 Posts: 93	Hell! I use guitar picks, slices of business cards, strips of sand paper. What ever works. I have seen plenty of shims installed from the factory.

August 24th, 2008, 04:30 AM	#12 (permalink)
Stratsrgood Tele-Meister Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Hampshire,UK Age: 57 Posts: 116	I nearly always shim, when I first pick up the guitar I look at where the bridge saddles are and then decide which end of the neck pocket is going to get it! I dont like the screws standing too high, and I dont like them going out the bottom either. No shame in shimming.

August 24th, 2008, 04:35 AM	#13 (permalink)
play_loud Tele-Meister Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Sydney Age: 19 Posts: 222	I think I feel more ashamed for not knowing what 'shimming' is.. I could just quietly Google it while no one is watching.. But for some reason I feel obligated to publically humiliate myself today. Anyone care to explain?

August 24th, 2008, 04:42 AM	#14 (permalink)
morroben Tele-Afflicted Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: california Age: 32 Posts: 1,861 18 Photos	Ideally a guitar shouldn't need a shim, but if it does it does. No shame in making a guitar play better.

August 24th, 2008, 07:09 AM	#15 (permalink)
viking Tele-Meister Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Denmark Age: 42 Posts: 403	Play Loud , one of the greatest things when dealing with a bolt-on neck , is that you are able to put a shim under the neck in about 5 minutes. A shim will alter the angle of the neck related to the body. Some nit pickers claim that it gives the guitar less sustain , " perfect neck pocket fit " blah-blah-blah....Its a really neat way to get the angle of the neck perfect , and as others have said it is often done right from the factory.

August 26th, 2008, 05:04 PM	#17 (permalink)
boris bubbanov Poster Extraordinaire Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: New Orleans, LA + in the past Posts: 8,510	I use chewing gum, or flower petals. Driving yer geetar around with a sonic fence on it is like driving a car every day with one of those mini-donut spares on it. It is remedial, and it is an effort to compensate for pieces that don't fit like they should. I saw some unfortunate day late dollar short lady driving a Saturn with not one, not two but three of those mini-spares on there. I guess she thought she was saving gas or something. If you must shim, please use what Mr. Kirn uses. Dissimilar materials damp out resonances going through the guitar. You get dead spots, you get a bland sounding guitar, IMO. __________________ Bubban0v

August 26th, 2008, 06:33 PM	#19 (permalink)
aznrambo481 Friend of Leo's Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: La Jolla, California Age: 17 Posts: 2,866 6 Photos	Feel no shame about the razor blade repair... just feel the SHAVE __________________ Check out my bands, and feel free to PM me comments on them! The Eclectics (guitar/vocals) SLIP (bass)

August 26th, 2008, 09:25 PM	#20 (permalink)
play_loud Tele-Meister Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Sydney Age: 19 Posts: 222	vking and Ronkirn, thank you so much! That's probably a better explanation then I was viable to find anywhere else! Cheers. Chris

August 27th, 2008, 08:34 AM	#21 (permalink)
Ron S Tele-Meister Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: UK Posts: 221	No Shame!! I have probably 3-4 business cards worth of material in and around the neck of my '77 a) so I don't have to use the micro-tilt (creates a rising tongue) and b) so the neck doesn't move from side to side. I have no shame! But then that's the story of my life IMHO my guitar sounds great and certainly has enough sustain for me (I mean, how long do notes have to go on for exactly, Gary Moore has never really done it for me* LOL) * Disclaimer: This is no way meant to instigate a debate on the merits of Gary Moore and/or his sustain, albeit challenging Nigel Tufnels.

August 27th, 2008, 08:46 AM	#22 (permalink)
z8894 Tele-Meister Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Alpharetta, Ga. Age: 43 Posts: 116	to mis-quote James Brown Say it loud, I shim and I'm proud.

August 27th, 2008, 12:19 PM	#23 (permalink)
buddastrat Tele-Meister Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 161	That's the beauty of a strat or tele. Tweak 'em just right. Can't do that on a Gibson.

August 27th, 2008, 11:01 PM	#24 (permalink)
Telarkaster Tele-Afflicted Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Montreal Quebec Canada Posts: 1,785	Dougf, better to have a guitar that's playable than a unshimmed guitar that you can't play. I really doubt anyone can tell if a guitar has been shimmed or not in a blind test. At least not with bass and drums blasting in the same room... Also, to answer your question: yes, I have heard of guitars coming from the Fender factory like that, but only anecdotally and not first hand.

September 3rd, 2008, 05:26 AM	#25 (permalink)
A.B.Negative Tele-Meister Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Scotland Age: 42 Posts: 100	Nearly every bolt-on neck guitar I've owned has needed a shim, usually because of the grub screws sticking out of the bridge saddles. If you can put up with the side of your hand being lacerated every time you palm mute or you're prepared to shorten each grub screw so they don't protrude, that's up to you. I've not noticed any difference in tone after shimming but the shimmed guitars are more comfortable to play and I do like some air under my strings so I've got room to dig in with my pick.

September 3rd, 2008, 10:56 PM	#26 (permalink)
DougF Tele-Meister Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Southern Minnesota Age: 43 Posts: 114	Thanks for all the replies. I think my neck might be a tad bit defective, I've turned the truss rod all the way clockwise but it doesn't seem to straighten quite enough to lower the action sufficiently. Compounding the problem was I bought a Callaham bridge, which is great, but has extra long grub screws that stick out a little farther than the stock fender ones, so lowering the action on the saddles really caused the screws to stick out. So besides the razor blade shim in the neck I also stripped the paint off of a saws-all blade,cut it down to size, and just as an experiment used it as a back plate on my bridge pickup (cs 54's). It sounded so good I left it on. I would die of embarrasment if a real guitar tech ever took my baby apart. But it sounds great and thats all I care about. And no jokes from you wags about how SHARP my guitar is...I've read enough posts to know the level of humor around here! :)