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Old April 13th, 2013, 02:08 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Lovepedal OD 11 anyone ?

Hi does anyone use a love pedal OD 11 it's supposed to be a clone of a timmy I'm curious to know how it is coz I'm after a good low gain transparant overdrive and this one sounds good on clips I've heard and is a good price .

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Old April 14th, 2013, 05:30 AM   #2 (permalink)
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I own the Amp 11.....can't say much except that it sounds great and ALWAYS gets compliments.
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Old April 14th, 2013, 07:35 AM   #3 (permalink)
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Unfortunately Paul has stopped making the Tim, so the Amp11 is your only option now. (Unless you want to pay a premium for a used one).
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Old April 14th, 2013, 07:52 AM   #4 (permalink)
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I own the Amp 11.....can't say much except that it sounds great and ALWAYS gets compliments.
I have one too. I agree. It makes your tone warmer and your notes sustain longer in a sort of semi-transparent way. The boost function is nice too. BTW I bought an Eternity Fuse but took it back. I liked the Amp11 better. One thing I like about Lovepedals is that they sound best in live playing conditions; it's as though he builds them and then uses them live and makes tweaks until they sound just right.
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Old April 14th, 2013, 11:39 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Is this the reason Paul stopped making the Tim?
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Old April 15th, 2013, 06:07 AM   #6 (permalink)
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I think he said it was so he could concentrate on getting Timmy's current. Plus he's hinted around that he has a new pedal in the works.
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Old April 15th, 2013, 07:40 AM   #7 (permalink)
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In this video it sounds pretty great

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MS2LSTUMKxY
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Old April 15th, 2013, 08:15 AM   #8 (permalink)
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Wow,
I love it!!! $99 for an OD that sounds like that?
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Old April 15th, 2013, 08:39 AM   #9 (permalink)
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Weazel666

Check your PM.

I am selling one and I just sent you the photo link.

$90 + Shipping to lower 48

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Old April 15th, 2013, 09:05 AM   #10 (permalink)
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Quote:
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it's supposed to be a clone of a timmy
There are a few differences that have folks concluding that it is "different," but most of them are minor.

The biggest difference is the change to the treble cut - it doesn't have the range with the Timmy. Sean with a different value tone pot.

The input impedance is higher than a Timmy, so this will make it overall brighter throughout the range.

Sean used linear taper pots throughout, so the "equivalent points" vs. the two are different.

There's a 4558 in Sean's pedal and a 4559 in Paul's. Possibly neither here nor there, but that's a difference.

The most glaring "issue" with Sean's copy is that he screwed up the resistor pair in the bias supply. The op amp requires "mid voltage" to properly bias. Most OD's just use a pair of the same value resistors - 10K in a TS, 33K in a SD-1, 47K in many of the old Marshall pedals...

Paul used an 8.2K resistor on "top" from the 9VDC in, with a 10K on the "bottom." This gives a little more headroom and/or gets closer to the "virtual mid rail voltage."

It's nothing new as a pedal like the Crowther Hot Cake has a 27K on "top" and a 33K on the "bottom."

But IMO, it's a really important design distinction. By Sean screwing up the orientation and putting the 8.2K on the "bottom," you actually lose headroom and sort of screw up the bias (albeit mildly) in the process.

You have to remember that we're only working with 9VDC here, so it becomes a little more important if you're trying to maximize the performance of the op amp. And the 2nd gain stage in the Timmy is a flat response boost only.

So the mid-rail bias in the Timmy is potentially closer to ~5VDC while the OD11 is closer to ~4VDC. Remember that Both have 9VDC in. So a bias voltage cannot double as a "sag" if this were purposeful, because the overall voltage isn't dropped.

Is it important? IMO inasmuch as it was IMO carried over from the Timmy, but implemented incorrectly. IMO, it's no different than when Joyo or Biyang (or whomever) copies something existing and screws something up in the process. It is indicative of a lack of circuit analysis and design that makes it all the way to production. Whether or not someone wants to get into issues of copying/cloning, but IMO it's more important to at least get the basic operating design correct.

For instance, Paul used a "crossover short" between the two series pairs of clipping diodes, and everyone who copies the Timmy leaves it out. Dano left it out, for instance. The difference with this one is not a deal breaker IMO, but again - very few other than Paul C. seem to understand what that bridge does.

But the bias supply thing is a deal breaker. If whomever is copying from the Timmy (or Hot Cake, or any other pedal that offsets the bias) doesn't understand the principle behind it, they should at least just revert back to how Maxon/Boss/MXR/ProCo/etc. have done it going back to the first OD's.

FWIW, it's (again) important to underscore that the Timmy has the boost stage, and with the gain at zero, the first stage is primarily boost too. The Hot Cake doesn't use clipping diodes, and the early ones in '77 used the dreadfully low fi 741 chip. And - the Hot Cake is a buffer in bypass. AND - batteries were the standard back then. So IMO, it's important.
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Old April 15th, 2013, 12:27 PM   #11 (permalink)
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I have a Timmy an amp 11 and an od11.
I had no idea they were supposed to be similar. They don't sound or react the same at all with my guits and amps - ?

I generally use the amp11 'direct' to rec desk.

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Old April 15th, 2013, 03:47 PM   #12 (permalink)
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^^^
If you read 11 Gauge's post you can get an idea why you think (and hear) so!
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Old April 16th, 2013, 04:42 AM   #13 (permalink)
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My Tim doesn't like my Blackface amps (Tweeds it does though) but the OD11 does. Just less harsh.
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Old April 16th, 2013, 09:58 AM   #14 (permalink)
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^^^
If you read 11 Gauge's post you can get an idea why you think (and hear) so!
Exactly. And my point being ... a Timmy and an Amp11 have - to my ears - so little in common sound and feel wise that I didn't think one was 'supposed' to be similar to the other. I'd also never heard the 'comparison' made until this thread.
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Old April 16th, 2013, 10:19 AM   #15 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by 11 Gauge View Post
There are a few differences that have folks concluding that it is "different," but most of them are minor.

The biggest difference is the change to the treble cut - it doesn't have the range with the Timmy. Sean with a different value tone pot.

The input impedance is higher than a Timmy, so this will make it overall brighter throughout the range.

Sean used linear taper pots throughout, so the "equivalent points" vs. the two are different.

There's a 4558 in Sean's pedal and a 4559 in Paul's. Possibly neither here nor there, but that's a difference.

The most glaring "issue" with Sean's copy is that he screwed up the resistor pair in the bias supply. The op amp requires "mid voltage" to properly bias. Most OD's just use a pair of the same value resistors - 10K in a TS, 33K in a SD-1, 47K in many of the old Marshall pedals...

Paul used an 8.2K resistor on "top" from the 9VDC in, with a 10K on the "bottom." This gives a little more headroom and/or gets closer to the "virtual mid rail voltage."

It's nothing new as a pedal like the Crowther Hot Cake has a 27K on "top" and a 33K on the "bottom."

But IMO, it's a really important design distinction. By Sean screwing up the orientation and putting the 8.2K on the "bottom," you actually lose headroom and sort of screw up the bias (albeit mildly) in the process.

You have to remember that we're only working with 9VDC here, so it becomes a little more important if you're trying to maximize the performance of the op amp. And the 2nd gain stage in the Timmy is a flat response boost only.

So the mid-rail bias in the Timmy is potentially closer to ~5VDC while the OD11 is closer to ~4VDC. Remember that Both have 9VDC in. So a bias voltage cannot double as a "sag" if this were purposeful, because the overall voltage isn't dropped.

Is it important? IMO inasmuch as it was IMO carried over from the Timmy, but implemented incorrectly. IMO, it's no different than when Joyo or Biyang (or whomever) copies something existing and screws something up in the process. It is indicative of a lack of circuit analysis and design that makes it all the way to production. Whether or not someone wants to get into issues of copying/cloning, but IMO it's more important to at least get the basic operating design correct.

For instance, Paul used a "crossover short" between the two series pairs of clipping diodes, and everyone who copies the Timmy leaves it out. Dano left it out, for instance. The difference with this one is not a deal breaker IMO, but again - very few other than Paul C. seem to understand what that bridge does.

But the bias supply thing is a deal breaker. If whomever is copying from the Timmy (or Hot Cake, or any other pedal that offsets the bias) doesn't understand the principle behind it, they should at least just revert back to how Maxon/Boss/MXR/ProCo/etc. have done it going back to the first OD's.

FWIW, it's (again) important to underscore that the Timmy has the boost stage, and with the gain at zero, the first stage is primarily boost too. The Hot Cake doesn't use clipping diodes, and the early ones in '77 used the dreadfully low fi 741 chip. And - the Hot Cake is a buffer in bypass. AND - batteries were the standard back then. So IMO, it's important.
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Old April 16th, 2013, 01:21 PM   #16 (permalink)
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Clipping is symmetrical in that pedal. If the offset is positive or negative by the same amount, there is less headroom on one phase of the signal or the other.

Is this not true? I've never tried it, just a sincere question.

It seems like if it matters, we should also be able to hear if a pedal is out of phase (with itself) or not. (I cannot)
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Old April 16th, 2013, 06:44 PM   #17 (permalink)
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Clipping is symmetrical in that pedal. If the offset is positive or negative by the same amount, there is less headroom on one phase of the signal or the other.

Is this not true? I've never tried it, just a sincere question.

It seems like if it matters, we should also be able to hear if a pedal is out of phase (with itself) or not. (I cannot)
It's not directly a matter of phase - it's a matter of bias. Op amp-based pedals (as well as some transistorized circuits like things that use the Orman minibooster) need a "half voltage" source. Why? Because they use what is called a "single supply" - in home audio and similar applications (like when an op amp is used in a guitar amp with SS circuitry, it's is a true dual supply - it's typically something like +12VDC/0VDC/-12VDC.

...A pedal "fakes it" by substituting 9VDC/4.5VDC/0VDC, because there are no negative voltages like with your home stereo or SS amp.

Now think about a mirror or reflection, and how it would be relatively easier to obtain this with a dual supply.

With the pedal's single supply, it's not entirely analogous. So tweaking the midpoint voltage becomes a bit important if you really don't want to introduce distortion.

Again, the second gain stage in the Timmy is simply a flat response boost - there is absolutely no tone shaping at all. The goal is only to boost and not introduce anything else to the situation.

While it's not completely analogous, look at the resistors in the phase inverter for something like a bigger Marshall (e.g. NOT the 18 watter or similar) - to "balance out" the two halves of the long-tailed phase inverter, one triode has an 82K resistor and the other has a 100K resistor. This is done to literally compensate.

Maybe a seesaw is a better analogy - think of your home audio's dual supply voltage as having equal weights on each side. Now - imagine you have to "fake the center point" of the seesaw, and it puts it off center one end by a couple of inches. How would you rebalance it? Easy - decrease the weight on the side that is longer to the center point.

...Imagine what would happen if you decreased the weight on the shorter side, because you were just imitating what someone else had done, but didn't understand the reason behind it. The problem in this case is that there is no visual indication of what was not done right. It's not until the boost stage clips that it becomes apparent. Some may never experience it as a shortcoming, but the bottom line is that it hinders the optimization of the design IMO.

Some folks might have noticed that there are some Boss pedals and such (almost never a dirt box) where there is a trimpot, maybe immobilized with some kind of glue on it. The voltage was measured to be set to a precise amount. Some circuit designs that are chock full of op amp stages or other multiple stages (think of something like a phaser) require a precisely balanced voltage.

...With something like a fuzz, it's not such a big deal. Most transistors in that application have horrible headroom figures, and the idea is generally to try and misbias a bit in some situations as well.

Some clipping is neither bad nor always readily detectable. But in the case of the Timmy specifically, Paul C. wanted an actual boost at the second gain stage with no clipping occurring there.
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Old April 16th, 2013, 09:07 PM   #18 (permalink)
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I like the seesaw analogy - like the first/second guitar amp stages, they are often not strickly Class A biased dead center because it's amplification is not great enough for the signal to go into saturation (clip the positive half cycle).

With our artificial ground bias exactly at 4.5V, we can move it up .5V or down .5V with the miss-balanced resistors. If the amplification is great enough, the positive half cycle will cut off first, or the negative half cycle will cut off first (straight amplifier, no diodes).

However, clipping diodes clamp each half cycle at equal amplitude (symmetrical clipping) at lets say 1.4V (two diode drops) on each half cycle. The amplification of the stage makes the signal anything from slightly clipped at 2.8Vp-p to really square at 2.8Vp-p. Now, offset that bias +.5V and the signal rides between 6.4V and 3.6V. Offset -.5V and the signal rides between 5.4V and 2.6V. It all fits easily within 0V-9V with bias offset or not.

There is plenty of distortion created without regard to bias at all, so how does this design feature matter if bias is shifted positive or negative (+/-0.5V) from center (4.5V)? And more importantly, if the positive half cycle or negative half cycle clips due to the supply rails, how does it matter which half cycle clips?
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Old April 17th, 2013, 08:54 AM   #19 (permalink)
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There is plenty of distortion created without regard to bias at all, so how does this design feature matter if bias is shifted positive or negative (+/-0.5V) from center (4.5V)? And more importantly, if the positive half cycle or negative half cycle clips due to the supply rails, how does it matter which half cycle clips?
If you aren't familiar with the Timmy circuit, check it out. Grab a schematic.

With the gain/drive at zero, there is essentially a network of other voltage dividing resistors (a pair of 3.3K's) that provide a 6dB boost, no clipping. These are tied into Vref or Vbias. The bass cut allows you to dial in or out a high pass filtering down to about 50Hz. That's essentially full range.

Long story short is that the diodes don't enter the picture at this point, even if using the dipswitches to give the higher clamping pair of 1N4148's only, which have a forward voltage of ~600mV.

But the Timmy derivatives use a quad of 1N4148's in a series/parallel config. only. So now you're jumping up to Vf of ~1200mV - less clamping for certain. The Dano and Lovepedal copies don't provide switches to do asym or just 2 diodes. So the op amp will definitely hit the rails earlier on with just the quad, and if a user doesn't cut the bass back more, it will exacerbate the issue.

The 2nd stage in the Timmy is like the first w/gain set @ zero, only there is NO HP filter - it's another pair of 3.3K's - one off the neg FB loop of ICB, and the other tied to Vref (or Vbias - you get the idea). There's no cap in there to set any EQ shelf at all - another 6dB boost.

It looks like while the Vemuram Jan Ray adds just a few more twists to the Timmy recipe, it also doesn't provide for any diode options other than just a quad. And again, no "crossover short" between the two series pairs like in the Timmy.

Paul Cochrane does a great job of explaining all the whys and hows of the Timmy's design, and it is a descendant of the the "evolved Tim." He kept it simple, and put effort on "proper design," like with the concept of "cut before boost." The bias supply tweak, the particular types of HP and LP filter adjustability chosen, and the peculiarity with the quad clipping diode arrangement are all purposeful to work with the configuration of the op amp stages. You could probably search around for some discussion of that at the DIY sites too.
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Old April 17th, 2013, 12:40 PM   #20 (permalink)
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Thanks 0.11
I realize we're in the wrong forum and this thread has been sufficiently derailed, so I'll leave it alone with basically the same unanswered question.

I realize that 6dB gain on a guitar signal is nothing really, as you point out the diodes are not in the picture at that point until more gain is added.

Switching in the dipswitch provides a lower clamping voltage, not higher (600mV compared to 1200mV). Typo, I understand.

'Hitting the rails' of the diode clamping voltage is expected; my point was that it never gets close to the power supply rails (+9V and 0V), so it can ride symmetrically or asymmertically on an arbitrary bias voltage of considerable range, positive or negative, which is the issue you have not addressed.

That is the very 'design feature' that I cannot wrap my heat around as being 'important'. I didn't think Paul described it any more technically than you did (the bias selection), but it's been a while since I came across it. I remember much of the discussion as pretty standard boiler plate stuff for overdrive/distortion.

I don't know about you, but these are the things that are interesting to discuss. Again... wrong forum...apologies to OP
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