Dual Discreet Effects Paths for a Dual Amp Setup??

[Sudsy100]

Hmm . . . this should be easy, but I'm not quite getting the solution in the ol' noggin.

Currently, I run a fairly large board into a dual amp rig. For smallish club gigs, I usually use a 65 Deluxe RI and an Orange Tiny Terror . . . but the amps don't really matter except that one is generally a "cleaner" amp (the Deluxe) and the other is a "dirtier" amp (the Tiny Terror). Right now, all my pedals are common to both amps. I use an LS-2 in conjunction with a NS-2 at the front to "send/return" the higher-noise gain/boost/distortion pedals and "in/out" the low-noise delays and mods. But the LS-2 is on most of the time anyway, so it's only handy to turn off the gain boxes. At the end of the chain I use a Radial Twin City to send two signals into two volume pedals, and each volume pedal goes out to each amp.

Anyway . . . what I'd like to do is be able to have two discreet paths for different effects to be used with only one amp or the other. Also, a "line-through" for effects common to both would be a good idea. For the Deluxe, I'd want more gain/distortion units in it's effects path . . . for the Tiny Terror, I'd want maybe one gain and one clean boost. In other words, I may want to use a RAH with both, but might only want to use a Barber Direct Drive for the Deluxe because the TT is already set for high-gain.

What I'm having trouble picturing is the path. I keep thinking I'd need at least one switcher/looper with two inputs and two outputs (and possibly a line through) to make the whole shebang work, but I'm not aware of one existing. Virtually everything I've seen only has one input and two outputs. BTW--the loopers/switchers I've got right now are the Twin City, the LS-2, and a Radial Loopbone. I've also got a Moen GEC-9, but seeing as it only has one input, I don't think that would help.

Maybe I'm just having a brain cramp because it should be easy to figure out. But I can't come up with a simple solution other than finding and using a hypothetical "two-in/two-out" switcher/looper somewhere in the chain.

I could simply put all the common pedals at the front, and then make a split mid-chain with the Twin City going to specific pedals for each amp, but that's totally back-assward from the way I'd want.

If the answer involves a pricey switcher/looper, I guess I don't mind. But, I'd like to keep the cost down to a dull roar if possible.

Any ideas or help would be greatly appreciated!

Suds . . .

[1955]

Switcher/Looper looks like a possibility, but truthfully I used to try complicated two-amp stuff, and I just couldn't find any time to play the guitar.

Simplify based on how often you use an effect, and if you get bogged down, jumper the two amps with just a tuner and a cord and give yourself time to just play to clear your head.

Not much help to your question, but I've been there, it's a nightmare of wires, custom building pedal boards, patch cables, power supplies, routing, etc.

My best advice is run in the opposite direction. But just my opinion. If you really enjoy having all that, it may be worth the work and time.

These days I'm working on complicated things like trying to stay in tune, there was a while there that I was playing pedals instead of my guitar, never learned how to play it!

[Sudsy100]

Originally Posted by 1955

Switcher/Looper looks like a possibility, but truthfully I used to try complicated two-amp stuff, and I just couldn't find any time to play the guitar.

Simplify based on how often you use an effect, and if you get bogged down, jumper the two amps with just a tuner and a cord and give yourself time to just play to clear your head.

Not much help to your question, but I've been there, it's a nightmare of wires, custom building pedal boards, patch cables, power supplies, routing, etc.

My best advice is run in the opposite direction. But just my opinion. If you really enjoy having all that, it may be worth the work and time.

These days I'm working on complicated things like trying to stay in tune, there was a while there that I was playing pedals instead of my guitar, never learned how to play it!

I hear ya, but I'm in the camp where I ride on my basic style (I'm 58, so that's pretty well set), but also really enjoy having a variety of sounds to pull from.

I've been using a dual rig for eons and wouldn't change it for a second. Only difference in 2012 as opposed to 1985 is instead of a 100W Marshall on one side and a DR 504 on the other, it's a 15W Terror and a 22W Deluxe.

Effects-wise, I don't have them on all the time . . . just a fair amount of options. A bit of delay and boost for Little Wing, a touch of snarl for Goin' Down, chunky for Superstition, something grittier for Messin' With The Kid. That kinda thing.

I think we're talking overkill vs underkill. In-between is where I like it (just MHO, of course). As long as people dig it, I'm having fun, and the sound I'm hearing gives me a smile . . . that's the main thing.

Anyway . . . digressing

My rig is basically as I like it. The one last thing on my "wish list" would be able to lightly boost the Terror while higher-gaining the Deluxe for certain songs (as an example). I used to have the whole RJM midi effect switching rackmount thing which was a pain to set up, but easy as pie once everything was in place. Not going there again, though.

You might be right that reversing the chain is the way to go, but I gotta think somebody, somewhere makes a simple "two-in/two-out" loop/switcher. That's all I want from Santa (in four months, or so).

[MojoMonster]

Originally Posted by Sudsy100

I could simply put all the common pedals at the front, and then make a split mid-chain with the Twin City going to specific pedals for each amp, but that's totally back-assward from the way I'd want.

Nope. That's your answer.

It could get complicated if you were using a stereo setup and/or stereo out effects, but what I'd do is:
Guitar -> NS2[dirt] -> time-based FX -> Twin City -> {A: Volume pedal -> NS2[dirt] -> time-based FX -> amp}{B: Volume pedal -> NS2[FX] -> time-based FX -> amp}.

Put your tuner and/or wah before the first NS2 and use the Twin City to select between amps. You could also play through both at the same time and use the volume pedals to adjust the balance.

[bbigd0]

Finally got a Pedalboard together that I like (fairly small). Just got a Radial A/B/Y and experimenting with a Deluxe Reverb and a DRZ Monza. I find it hard to not have Both on. It sounds so GOOD. Still have some balance issues though when popping in a bit of the Sparkle Drive which I have on the Del Rev only. Don't think I'll be going back.

[Sudsy100]

Originally Posted by MojoMonster

Nope. That's your answer.

It could get complicated if you were using a stereo setup and/or stereo out effects, but what I'd do is:
Guitar -> NS2[dirt] -> time-based FX -> Twin City -> {A: Volume pedal -> NS2[dirt] -> time-based FX -> amp}{B: Volume pedal -> NS2[FX] -> time-based FX -> amp}.

Put your tuner and/or wah before the first NS2 and use the Twin City to select between amps. You could also play through both at the same time and use the volume pedals to adjust the balance.

Appreciate the take on the path, and I agree. It's looking more & more like the only practical way to do things is to front-end the common pedals, and then make the split mid-chain. Your point about needing NS-2's for the front-end and each A/B split was something I hadn't thought through yet, but it is the optimum setup (if I'm reading your path properly). TTYTT, I don't use the NS-2 all that much (I prefer if off whenever possible), but there are times when adding that final OD pedal for a solo or a higher octane tune requires it.

1955 might have a good point in that it gets a bit more complicated than desirable when it's all said and done. There are things that I really like about my chain as it is:

1. Having the time-based stuff looped send/return via the NS-2 instead of being in the same in/out path as the dirt (no need to noise gate the mods and delays, and best to keep their signal as pristine as possible).
2. Having the Volume pedals at the end of the chain. I know there's general disagreement on where to put VP's, but I've found having a strong signal right through the path, and then controlling the output volume to the amps tends to work a bit better for me.
3. Some pedals are placed exactly where they sound best, but I don't see that as a huge problem. Most of those ones (Wah, Octaver) can go in the front-end where they're happy. Other pedals (foundation overdrives, some gain jobbies) sound good in a particular order, but I can't see that being a big issue either. As far as the fuzzes go, they like to be first in every path, so I'd probably dedicate them to the Deluxe's "clean side" of the chain (no use fuzzing a gained-out Orange).

Basically, I think the simplified overall idea that's being arrived at is: Guitar -> tuner --> Wah --> NS-2 --> all common pedals --> Twin City --> "A" going to anything you want specifically for one amp, and "B" going to anything you specifically want for the other --> outs of each Twin City path into volume pedals --> amps.

The reason I said 1955 might have a point is because I'm only talking about a difference of two or three dirt boxes to be discreet for each amp. For example, at the front before a split I can easily use all delays & mods, and also stuff like a RAH, EP Booster and other "Boost/Foundation/Light-OD" pedals. It's after the split where I'd only want individual dirt boxes or two so I can send a higher-gain sound to the Deluxe and a less distorted OD to the Orange. That's the rub . . . when I have things sounding right for both amps, but press on a fuzz or Direct Drive for both, it's too high-gain for the Orange, but perfect for the Deluxe (or vice-versa at times). I do have a pretty good kit of stuff, so even using two of the same pedals with lower or higher gain settings would be fine (I have a couple of RAHs, a couple of MIJ SD-1's that I like, two EP Boosters, and a bunch of other stuff I could toss in the stew).

BTW--I did find someone who makes a "two-in/two-out" box. But based on thinking it through so far, I don't think that's the answer. Even if it was, the box is made by Morley, and unless this one has some magic or better architecture than their other splitters I'd stay away. OTOH, I haven't looked up reviews yet, but IMHO, anywhere you split a signal, it's best to buy a really good unit. The Morley ABY was absolutely horrible, so I can't see the ABY Mix below being any better. You never know though . . .

http://www.morleypedals.com/dabymix.html


Suds . . .

[Sudsy100]

Originally Posted by bbigd0

Finally got a Pedalboard together that I like (fairly small). Just got a Radial A/B/Y and experimenting with a Deluxe Reverb and a DRZ Monza. I find it hard to not have Both on. It sounds so GOOD. Still have some balance issues though when popping in a bit of the Sparkle Drive which I have on the Del Rev only. Don't think I'll be going back.

Not to butt in at all, but I'd highly recommend getting something like the Twin City instead of the ABY Bigshot (if that's what you have now).

I had a Bigshot ABY previously (got it really cheap), and noticed the signal path coming out was really weak. I did some research on the Bigshot, and found that there was a -3db drop.

This is from the Radial Web Site FAQ:

"Q: When using two amps, will the original guitar signal be half strength to each amp or will each amp receive full signal from the guitar?

A: With passive devices like the BigShot ABY, the signal strength from the guitar will basically be reduced by 3dB which technically means half the power. The up side is that instead of having one amp playing you have two which should compensate nicely. For those that do not want the level to go down, but want more of a wall of sound... products like the Radial Bones Twin City and the Radial Tonebone Switchbone employ a buffer to retain the level so that it is maintained."

The Twin City does a great job, IHMO.

Suds . . .