Pharoah, LSTR or Box of War??

[lareplus]

All so incredible, all have top connectors, I can't make up my mind!

What is your opinion?

[smoss469]

Save and get all 3

[mexidev]

+1 ^

[lareplus]

no room for all of them and i like them all. .

[damaged]

Out of the 2 bats I would say its a question of how much gain do you want. The pharaoh can get pretty smooth but I wouldn't say it's overly gainy like the lstr. I have not played the other pedal you mentioned.

[11 Gauge]

Originally Posted by lareplus

no room for all of them and i like them all. .

If they are all great and no singular one has an edge over the other two (price, availability, etc.), just put names in a hat, and draw one out.

Or have some kid pick one. That's always fun. I have my daughter do that when it's any product that the choices have a "dead heat."

I go thru this about 2X a year with pickups and speakers - a lot of good equivalent choices, so I just look for a deal breaker of any type.

If you haven't already, email all 3 companies with just a generic query about the pedal, and see how they respond. Maybe there will be something in the responses that you will end up favoring one over the others.

[smoss469]

2 out of the 3 are made by the same company though. But I agree with the pick at random idea!

[dog fart]

Originally Posted by 11 Gauge

If you haven't already, email all 3 companies with just a generic query about the pedal, and see how they respond. Maybe there will be something in the responses that you will end up favoring one over the others.

Excellent advise, I do this all the time. You can learn a lot about a company by how quickly and courteously they answer an e-mail.

[11 Gauge]

Originally Posted by dog fart

Excellent advise, I do this all the time. You can learn a lot about a company by how quickly and courteously they answer an e-mail.

You can also get a feel for things like "genuine enthusiasm," which generally makes for a product with an edge. Emphasis on generally.

It's also nice to get a response from a person with a little bit of...personality. If the response is kind of cut and dried/by the textbook, it could be something to have you leaning towards the other one (now that I know that two of these are made by the same company - sorry).

And I really like when there is a little insight as far as what was trying to be accomplished, even if it's as simple as something like "we wanted to make a Big Muff based off the ____ era Muffs, just with a bit less saturation, and more midrange."

[lareplus]

excellent wise advice, as usual 11 Gauge. . .I am please to have this forum with a bunch of great guys with great ideas! I think I will write some letters!

[JesterR]

Personally, I would prefer Pharaoh and LSTR. I did not tried BoW, but:
1)Pharaoh. Definitely worth to stay. Very different, from classic "muffy" tone, wich LSTR and BoW has.
2)LSTR, because it has some extras and sounds really huge. But it depends, if you prefer classic muff mojo, I would think, that you can prefer BoW

[richpjr]

Interesting timing - just ordered the Pharaoh today taking advantage of the 15% off at Prymaxe (not affiliated in any way).

[lareplus]

let us know how you like it, how it stacks and what you are doing with it. . .that would be great to read.

I hope you enjoy that pedal, it sure looks great on youtube. .

[Zounds Perspex]

I've had a Pharoah and I currently use a Box Of War.
People heap praise on the Pharoah and cite its versatility,
but I couldn't really get a sound that wowed me from it.
maybe user error, maybe just didn't gel with the rest of my rig-
something that's hugely important when finding the right fuzz.

on the other hand, Box Of War delivered just what I want from a Muff-
lots of low end, scooped but not TOO scooped, and big fat single notes up the neck.
I'm a sucker for pedal aesthetics, too, and the BOW looks GREAT.

If you want a more tweakable Muff-style pedal, btw, I greatly preferred the Earthbound Audio Supercollider to the Pharoah, and it also has top-mounted jacks.

[damaged]

I found the pharaoh to be a bit fiddly but when you find the right settings it really blooms well. I use 2 main settings for 2 different sounds. One is more of a bluesy od sound the other is all out war with the dirty channel on my amp. It also stacks well with others.

[11 Gauge]

Originally Posted by JesterR

Personally, I would prefer Pharaoh and LSTR.

I just found out they are both built with the same exact circuitboard. You can see that it says "PharaohLSTR." in the included pics.

Differences between the two (visible):

- LSTR obviously doesn't have the clipping diode switches. In the picture, you can see there are only 4 of the stock style Big Muff diodes, and the switched ones for the Pharaoh (D5/D6/D7) are obviously not included on the circuitboard.

- Pharaoh replaces the stock silicon style at the second clipping stage with 1N4004 epoxy rectifier diodes. They have a lower forward voltage than the stock silicons, so will conduct/compress sooner. In the lower right, there are 3 germanium clipping diodes, which will conduct/compress even faster than the epoxy rectifier types, and that was first done in Muff-like pedals like the Cornish Soft Sustain.

- See the two "yellow match head" caps in the Pharaoh? They are probably the bigger value 1uF or even 10uF versus the primarily .1uF caps in a Big Muff. The ram's head in particular went to 1/10uF caps, particularly at the input, and one at the 2nd clipping stage. The triangle used only .1uF caps.

It looks like 3 of the signal caps in both are the same .1uF size. The clipping band caps look bigger - the "hot value" these days is .22uF - Skreddy put that in the Mayo, so it's become very popular. Those are the 2nd to the left, top, and the center lower "horizontally oriented" cap that is a little taller than the surrounding ones. The horizontal cap just above it is the bass cap. Looks to be the same in both.

Lastly are the two smaller/thinner red (or yellow green) caps that are the Muff tone control caps. The Pharaoh gets a bigger value than stock .0039uF "treble cap," possibly same size as stock Muff bass cap (.01uF). It will give the perception of flatter mids, and is better for softer and less traditional Muff tones.

...The little yellow/green cap on the right side of the LSTR is no doubt a stock value Muff treble cap, so you get the perception of deep/heavy intense Muff sound.

Oh yeah - "clipping softening caps" - the 3 disk caps. All 3 look to be the same ram's head value of 560pF. The triangle used smaller 390pF caps.

I also see a handful of differences in resistor values that would give the P less distortion than the LSTR. The L has bigger transistor collector resistors, and smaller emitter resistors. The P's smaller 10K collector resistors will make it clean up better and make it less fuzz-like. The L has the 15K ones that decrease the transistor's headroom. It looks like the L also uses the little 100 ohm emitter resistors for max distortion/fuzz.

...Given the resistor differences, both pedals probably use the same transistors, not that I think the choice is super critical in many Muff variations, with the exception being the old green Russian Muffs and civil war Muffs, but companies who build those are usually quick to point out that they've done that.

So if you wanted specifics on how these two differ, there it is! Good to see that BATW is getting their own pcbs made, as some folks were mad to find a General Guitar Gadgets board in theirs (in earlier ones). Pics below.

Pharaoh on the top or left (you can see the two switches red "bodies), and LSTR on the bottom or right.

[JesterR]

11 Gauge, I know, that 95% pedals are the same pedals, based on classic designs (Tube screamer, Big Muff, fuzz face etc), but with little tweaks. But when it makes difference and sounds right, I do not care about that things. And I would say, that Pharaoh sounds differently very much against any other muffs (I tried not a lot, but some of them with different features). And LSTR also sounds different, when done side-by-side with other muffs.
I do not think, that pedal should have some original or drastically different from any other. Since it SOUNDS different, and sounds good, that's it. I believe, that many Barber pedals has pretty same basic design, but I love them, and I have two of them on my board.

I mean, thanks for your post, and it really gives much for many guys. But related to my post, I know about their guts, but still think, that LSTR + Pharaoh is a good combo in terms of the sound.

[11 Gauge]

Originally Posted by JesterR

I would say, that Pharaoh sounds differently very much against any other muffs (I tried not a lot, but some of them with different features). And LSTR also sounds different, when done side-by-side with other muffs.

That's not surprising, as the recipe is somewhat different. The biggest factor will be the "extra" tone control on these two, and it will require altering the fundamental frequency range that gets adjusted. Most of the Muff sound is determined by the tone circuit and the two clipping band capacitors. This is verifiable even if you lined up 50 different original EHX Muffs, since there was no consistency when they were made.

That is why I refer to the term "recipe" with Muff variants. My point is not to say that these are EHX copies, as they clearly are not. I pointed out the differences. At the same time, if you get rid of some standard things to the Muff circuit, it would make the sound completely unfamiliar, and much less popular.

Originally Posted by JesterR

I believe, that many Barber pedals has pretty same basic design, but I love them, and I have two of them on my board.

No - the Direct Drive is really fairly different from a Tube Screamer. It adds hard clipping, has a tone control like a Rat, and then has the bass/mid boost stuff. I think the addition of hard clipping alone pre-dates the OCD, so Barber was first (to use a dual op amp OD with the diodes in between the gain stages).

Then, Barber was clever with the LTD. He removed the clipping diodes to ground, reduced the gain range, went with a different tone circuit (from 99% of OD pedals), and put trimmers for BOTH the mid and bass boost on the second stage of the Silver/SR. Anyone who calls the DD/LTD a variation of a TS is flat out incorrect, IMO. And you can tell by the sound - nothing alike. Some folks even think the DD sounds like a Marshall!

Originally Posted by JesterR

I mean, thanks for your post, and it really gives much for many guys. But related to my post, I know about their guts, but still think, that LSTR + Pharaoh is a good combo in terms of the sound.

Again, my point isn't to say "X pedal = clone of Y." Even if it is, I don't care (for the most part) either. I'm just trying to elaborate on the specific recipe, and why you hear what you hear, and why someone may prefer one over the other. The Pharaoh deviates from the standard Muff circuit quite a bit more, especially with the toggles. If you could dial in either BATW pedal to sound just like an EHX Muff, I would be very surprised.

I think the LSTR was put in their line to be a bit closer to the standard Muff, for those who found the P to be a bit much of a variation.

I'm not knocking the Musket Fuzz, the Skreddy fuzzes, or so many of the other cool recipes to the EHX Muff. I think they are all really great. The other cool thing is that these companies are building consistent stuff - EHX never did that. And even with the NYC RI in its latest version, a lot of folks don't like Matthews' choices, and I don't blame them.

[Tarnisher]

11, even though I don't understand a lot of the technical stuff you share, I feel privileged to have access to it. Most of the time we gearheads talk in such subjective terms, especially about stomp boxes, those magical little devices which do so much to our sound, but reveal so little to our eyes. It's nice to know that someone here understands what's really going on inside them, and why two boxes sound similar or different.

You mentioned the Musket Fuzz. At the risk of getting off topic, could you tell me what it's doing differently from the other Muff clones? It has a certain quality on single note leads, a smoothness that I just love, and haven't heard in any of the other clones I've tried.

[11 Gauge]

Originally Posted by Tarnisher

You mentioned the Musket Fuzz. At the risk of getting off topic, could you tell me what it's doing differently from the other Muff clones? It has a certain quality on single note leads, a smoothness that I just love, and haven't heard in any of the other clones I've tried.

Hey - like I said, I really do love all of these different "Muff-like recipes." I think my "first favorite" was whoever came up with something that sounded like a "good" old green Russian. I had an old MIR greenie, and it was a stupidly great Muff.

The Musket is a really neat one, IMO. It "adds a 5th transistor" to help and control the input gain more. One of the controls also lets you sweep through a larger or smaller input cap - I don't remember if it is "the" input cap, or one in between the stages. Anyway, you sweep between something smaller than a stock Muff up to something as large or larger than a stock Muff.

...Between those two controls/flexibility alone, you get a lot of precision with the Musket Fuzz.

I believe the Musket Fuzz actually has separate bass and treble controls. The Pharaoh primarily just makes the amount of bass adjustable, which can give you flat mids or mid emphasis.

The Pharaoh also has that input switch, which toggles between the stock 39K Muff resistor and a huge 390K resistor. So the P does with a switch what the MF does with a knob - controlling your pre-gain/input gain. A stock Muff with the 39K can sound kinda muddy or woofy. Controlling the input signal can tighten things up, make it clean up better, and give you more treble/note detail in the distortion.

I also found out that the Pharaoh uses .47uF signal caps and clipping band caps for the two sets of diodes. Between the different tone control, the more mildly biased transistors, the input toggle, and the germanium diodes on the switch, the P should be a lot more mild/diffuse/un-fuzzy sounding compared to a more "traditional" Muff recipe.

Since the LSTR doesn't have the input switch (it's the "missing resistor" on the LH side of the pcb) or the other softening/smoothing tweaks, it will sound more Muff-like.

I think the Musket Fuzz is probably one of the most tweakable of the Muff recipes, because of the separate bass and treble, and both the input pre-gain and input cap controls. That adds 3 knobs to the stock 3 knobs.

There's so much variation with the recipes. If you start with a green Russian vs. ram's head vs. triangle vs. IC/op amp (the one that Billy Corgan uses), they will all sound very different. There used to be a web page with graphs of all the different variations of Muff's tone controls, and no two are the same. Even the Swollen Pickle (Mk I) is very different. If the two clipping band caps are different between any two, they will sound very different. Both the triangle and the green Russian use little .047uF caps, while most other Muffs use .1uF to 10uF. The bigger the cap value for the clipping band, the more bass gets clipped. The tone circuit on just the triangle/ram's head/green Russian are all different.