I usually like gut shots of amps, but here is some pedals I like

[telefunken]

A Teese Picture wah and a Joe Bonamassa wah.

[Syclone879]

So...just out of curiosity as I have no knowledge of what I am looking at...the top pedal is hand wired where as the bottom is circuit board?

[telefunken]

Originally Posted by Syclone879

So...just out of curiosity as I have no knowledge of what I am looking at...the top pedal is hand wired where as the bottom is circuit board?

Pretty much,but the bottom one is simpler and has great components, and sounds better( slightly).

[mal paso]

Awesome pics!



I could look at this stuff all day long




(err, or at least for 20 minutes or so)

[Syclone879]

When I look at that picture this is what I see:

The bottom pedal, at first glance, did seem like a simpler design. I can see the switch, the gear mechanism that allows the pedal to move up and down, the input & output jacks, one pedal has battery operation. When it comes to the (components?) of the pedal, that's where I'm lost.

I always had this image in my head of hand wired pedals/amps but when I look at them, I don't understand how they are much different from PCB circuits. I can see the different color (caps/resistors?) and they always seem larger on hand wired electronics. Is it that the components of hand wired electronics are better or just that there is more care taken in hand-wired work as opposed to machine work?

[telefunken]

Originally Posted by Syclone879

When I look at that picture this is what I see:

The bottom pedal, at first glance, did seem like a simpler design. I can see the switch, the gear mechanism that allows the pedal to move up and down, the input & output jacks, one pedal has battery operation. When it comes to the (components?) of the pedal, that's where I'm lost.

I always had this image in my head of hand wired pedals/amps but when I look at them, I don't understand how they are much different from PCB circuits. I can see the different color (caps/resistors?) and they always seem larger on hand wired electronics. Is it that the components of hand wired electronics are better or just that there is more care taken in hand-wired work as opposed to machine work?

I'm sure 11 Gauge could elaborate, but my understanding of "Hand-Wire"(in amps) is a shorter signal path,better components, and easier to repair.

[11 Gauge]

Originally Posted by telefunken

Pretty much,but the bottom one is simpler and has great components, and sounds better( slightly).

For what it's worth, I don't think that necessarily because a circuit is more complex (even if it has had "calculated engineering" in its design) that it ever means it will sound better.

Look at amps that have withstood the test of time and are considered classics to the point where it cannot be denied. Other than something like a Dumble (which actually has a relatively simple circuit compared to many other audio electronic devices), the amps that tend to be the most favored are fairly simple designs. Even if you throw in reverb and trem, there's nothing really what would be considered "groundbreaking" to an engineering type.

I think the component "quality" in either one is a "push." One has those cool high voltage Mallory 150's, but they have no practical purpose in a 9VDC pedal, and their axial design only makes them usable with a simple circuit (or a goofy layout). It also has metal film resistors, which are arguably overkill in a wah, or even possibly over half of all pedals made.

Since metal films are roughly the same price as carbon films, they are a cheap way to allow for something to visually appear to be higher quality. But if you crack open most pedals that are not SMT, they probably also have metal films in them. My Biyang and Joyo pedals both have metal film resistors. It's kind of "par for the course" with modern pedal construction.

The other wah has carbon comp resistors and canister type transistors, but that is also IMO a visual appeal thing. Neither really "adds" anything to the sound. A resistor doesn't have a sound. A transistor has a gain that *might* shape the sound, but in the case of a wah, there is no intention for it to distort, so as long as the nominal gain of the transistor is adequate, the type is rather insignificant (IMO).

All of this said, if the price of the two are similar and the sound is similar, I personally like what I see in the bottom wah. I like to see those open frame jacks that aren't part of the circuitboard. And it is cool to see a circuitboard that looks like it was laid out by a human being as opposed to being pumped out by machines night and day. There's nothing qualitative to that statement, but it's along the lines of deciding to purchase between two different high dollar pickup sets, with one being considerably/mostly automated with machines, and the other actually hand wound and potted, perhaps with the polepieces and bobbins also handmade.

It is when there is a nice balance and marriage of all things - how something is built, how it was designed, how it performs, and some visual evidence of finesse that makes for some tool that is somehow more than just a tool.

[telefunken]

Originally Posted by 11 Gauge

All of this said, if the price of the two are similar and the sound is similar, I personally like what I see in the bottom wah. I like to see those open frame jacks that aren't part of the circuitboard. And it is cool to see a circuitboard that looks like it was laid out by a human being as opposed to being pumped out by machines night and day. There's nothing qualitative to that statement, but it's along the lines of deciding to purchase between two different high dollar pickup sets, with one being considerably/mostly automated with machines, and the other actually hand wound and potted, perhaps with the polepieces and bobbins also handmade.

Thanx for that
BTW, the top wah (Joe Bonamassa) was $169
the bottom wah(Teese Picture, old non-RoHs Compliant ) was $249

[11 Gauge]

Originally Posted by telefunken

Thanx for that
BTW, the top wah (Joe Bonamassa) was $169
the bottom wah(Teese Picture, old non-RoHs Compliant ) was $249

I know the Teese's are (what many might consider) high priced.

But MXR/Dunlop/WHE has the manufacturing advantage that allows them to keep the price down with partial automation. And being able to slap jacks/pots/switches right on the board itself is much much faster than having to actually wire them by hand. Every pot has 3 lugs. A true bypass footswitch has 9 lugs.

...If there are parts that are separate from the circuitboard, that means wires are needed to connect them - more labor.

If Teese is actually fabricating his own circuitboard, which means applying a chemical resist to raw copper clad board, etching it with chemicals, cutting it by hand to size, and drilling it for components - imagine the labor difference between it and the factory-made Dunlop board. With the Dunlop, it can simply have the components added. There will even usually be silkscreening on the board so that anyone who has basic familiarity with electronics components could put the pieces on. The Teese is unlabeled since it is made by hand (by someone). Whoever puts the parts on the Teese circuitboard will need to know more, even if the circuit is simple.

The only time that I myself am puzzled a bit is when the price of something like those two that you showed are somewhat similar, or something with a lot of automation like the Dunlop might even cost more! The bottom line is that even if the Dunlop had 3X the components on the board, it would probably take 1/3 the time to assemble it. I say assemble and not build, because that is all that needs to happen with prefabricated parts - there is little to no actual construction. It becomes kind of "factory turn-key."

But I applaud you for being curious about the construction, especially since both of those pedals are in the realm of what many would not pay for. So IMO, construction and design facets become more relevant. In particular, if it took more actual labor, that justifies part of the price. If it uses components that require hand assembly, like the open frame jacks in the Teese, again that is more labor.

I've heard folks argue that circuitboards produced by machines are possibly of higher quality, and I will never argue with that. But IMO, they diminish the reality of something that is built by hand. There is a true difference between assembly and construction, IMO.

I guess it might help to view it like this - take a Deluxe Reverb Reissue. Now have Fender Custom Shop take the DRRI cabinet and chassis and put either eyelet board or turretboard construction in it. Think of the labor difference and subsequent price difference. Now imagine that they are made by two different manufacturers (say they are clones, like a TS is cloned a zillion times over), but the price is similar. I personally would feel like I overpaid for the DRRI, since it is assembled and not constructed. And at least part of the assembly is done by machines. So IMO, the DRRI is accurately priced at around $700 or whatever, and a similar CS DR would cost at least $1400, maybe more. And the CS model would probably have pine in the cabinet and a chassis that matches the old BF/SF amps (there are real differences - I modified a DRRI for someone for a turretboard - LOTS of labor, including some machining of the chassis).

So if you pay for a "premium product," there is no harm IMO to consider the actual construction, especially if it is a matter of assembly vs. construction, either in part or whole. IMO.

[JCBurke59]

I've got a couple of pedals that really impressed me with their remarkably clean build quality. I can't speak to the specific designs as I'm just not knowledgable with such things, but both sound great to me.

First is a Grumpy Toad G2 clone. Todd does some of the most meticulously neat wiring I've ever seen:


Second is a Basic Audio Scarab Deluxe. This is the 'Tone Factor Edition' which uses a large case. The pedal is described as a Tone Bender variant and includes a bias control (the main feature that brought me to it).


Both of these pedals are full of very useful tones.

The Farndurk pedals also look to be really clean builds, but I haven't ever heard one 'live'. Overall there doesn't seem to be too much love for them. Maybe there just aren't very many out there. If clean builds were a reliable indicator of good sound these would be at the top of my list as well.

[11 Gauge]

Originally Posted by JCBurke59

If clean builds were a reliable indicator of good sound these would be at the top of my list as well.

I know it is not pedals, but for me, the "hand built benchmark" is probably the HiWatt amps built by Harry Joyce. There is smart design, and physical construction skill, and the two get married in the build.

Possibly a better analogy would be Dr. Z amps. Below is a pic of a Maz Jr. Many consider this to be a great sounding amp. The actual circuit is very simple and the parts count is low, but it is totally built by hand. So even at $1.6K - $2K, you are paying for (IMO) a marriage between design and building skill, for a great sounding amp. IOW, the price is not only justified, but actually a bit of a bargain (especially if you can find one used for less).

The other cool thing about hand building is that they can actually incorporate goofy components that are much harder for a computer to lay out, or may even have to be manually added when programming a prefabbed circuitboard. So if someone wanted to build a pedal using just "axial" (leads come out both ends of what looks like a Tootsie roll or toilet paper roll) capacitors like in many older pedals, that can be done more easily.

[11 Gauge]

Originally Posted by 11 Gauge

I know it is not pedals, but for me, the "hand built benchmark" is probably the HiWatt amps built by Harry Joyce. There is smart design, and physical construction skill, and the two get married in the build.

Okay, I just had to include a pic of an old HiWatt for this reason. Truly IMO a marriage of design and build skill.

And along with that, I have a picture of the interior of a Hot Rod Deluxe. The design is good, but it was laid out for automation - the components are simply popped in. The power supply components are attached with connectors. There is a secondary circuitboard that is connected with ribbon cables. It is a good sounding amp IMO, but not "built," but assembled.

I'm not making a qualitative statement about other - just commenting on the construction or assembly, and how it is easy to visually see a difference between the two.

[telefunken]

Here's my cute little gut shot of my Dr.Z Mini Z (first version). Notice my amateurish attempt at adding an 8ohm speaker output off the tranny, I suck at soldering and electronics in general(it's the devil's hocus pocus)

[Sherpa]

Cool thread! Here's a gut shot of my Silver Machine Automagically Wah:



Check out the fishing line connecting the treadle treadle - there are so many way to skin a cat...!

And my favourite OD pedal, by Austone:

[11 Gauge]

Originally Posted by Sherpa

And my favourite OD pedal, by Austone:

That is a cool one! An overdrive with no op amp(s) - all transistors, but a pair of clipping diodes! Xicon "greenie" caps that some consider to not be "premium grade," but the proof is in the tones.

Too bad that Jon Bessent is no longer with us. A local Austin guitarist/customer had this to say about him:

"He always impressed us with his skills, attitude, service, everything. He always had so many stories to tell about a piece of equipment[;] it was amazing[,] and he had obviously worked on hundreds of amps and pedals. I don't think there is anyone who can replace him!"

[milocj]

Jon was a great friend of mine and I was very sorry when he passed on so quickly. I still own one of his clean boost pedals, and unfortunately had sold the other three pedals I had owned to a friend in England who fell in love with each one every time he came to visit (had to take them home with him because they weren't ROHS compliant and he couldn't buy them in the UK. I always planned on getting more from Jon and just waited too long.

I also used to buy all my amp parts from him when I did a cap job or built some kits. Every single part was pre-tested, guaranteed, and attached to labeled cardboard with the exact measured value written next to it. I had an open invitation to come down and visit and to stay at his house and never got the chance...just assumed all those years that I'd get down there sometime. He took serious pride in his work and I enjoyed every phone call and email we had.

[telefunken]

Couldn't resist...my Joe Bonamassa Fuzz Face

[JCBurke59]

Originally Posted by telefunken

Couldn't resist...my Joe Bonamassa Fuzz Face

That's a nice tidy build.

[telefunken]

Originally Posted by JCBurke59

That's a nice tidy build.

Yes it is nice, but I can see me replacing the input and output jacks in the future. I don't like the looks of them, they don't seem to go with the other components (just my opinion).

[11 Gauge]

Originally Posted by telefunken

Yes it is nice, but I can see me replacing the input and output jacks in the future. I don't like the looks of them, they don't seem to go with the other components (just my opinion).

If they are the actual Cliff-style, and not the new "faux" ones that are mounted right to the board, they are good stuff IMO, even if they don't look right. I have Cliffs in my Marshall, and they are as durable as Neutrik types, IMO.

Even going back to the non-Dunlop Arbiter models, those same type of jacks are used. A germanium Fuzz Face uses "PNP" transistors, which means it has a positive ground circuit. The plastic jacks allow for no connection to ground at the jacks. So in this case, the open frame jacks would be a problem. If you don't mind the style but can't get along with the gray color, you could replace them with black ones.