Stock, Mods & Clones - Who's Most Popular?

[JoeNeri]

My totally and completely unscientific opinion - based on circumstantial evidence (such as posts on this forum and others, Ebay listings, etc.) - is that the most popular original stock dirt pedals, in no particular order, over the decades and to this day have been and are:

TS9 and 808 Tube Screamer
Boss BD-2 Blues Driver
Boss DS-1 Distortion
Proco Rat
EH Big Muff (all editions)
Fuzz Face

(Did I miss any?)

It also seems to me - unscientifically again - that these same pedals are the most modded and/or cloned and/or cloned with enhancements.

The manufacturers don't seem to give a hoot as to original vintage chips, etc. (as we do here on this forum), and yet continue to pump out and sell many thousands of these "inferior" pedals every year.

Why would they do this, unless maybe from their perspective and that of their customers the stock pedals aren't inherently inferior? But that wouldn't explain the seemingly equal number of people who need to modify or enhance clone them.

What am I missing here?

FWIW, I've been listening to a whole lot of SRV lately, and not just his most popular songs. I have a 3 cd set of virtually everything he recorded. And I honestly cannot tell which Tube Screamer he's using (TS808 -9 -10), let alone whether it has the 4558 chip in it. And from this listener's point of view, it really doesn't matter.

[BootRoots]

Id add the bad monkey to that list.

[Chiogtr4x]

Originally Posted by JoeNeri

My totally and completely unscientific opinion - based on circumstantial evidence (such as posts on this forum and others, Ebay listings, etc.) - is that the most popular original stock dirt pedals, in no particular order, over the decades and to this day have been and are:

TS9 and 808 Tube Screamer
Boss BD-2 Blues Driver
Boss DS-1 Distortion
Proco Rat
EH Big Muff (all editions)
Fuzz Face

(Did I miss any?)

It also seems to me - unscientifically again - that these same pedals are the most modded and/or cloned and/or cloned with enhancements.

The manufacturers don't seem to give a hoot as to original vintage chips, etc. (as we do here on this forum), and yet continue to pump out and sell many thousands of these "inferior" pedals every year.

Why would they do this, unless maybe from their perspective and that of their customers the stock pedals aren't inherently inferior? But that wouldn't explain the seemingly equal number of people who need to modify or enhance clone them.

What am I missing here?
FWIW, I've been listening to a whole lot of SRV lately, and not just his most popular songs. I have a 3 cd set of virtually everything he recorded. And I honestly cannot tell which Tube Screamer he's using (TS808 -9 -10), let alone whether it has the 4558 chip in it. And from this listener's point of view, it really doesn't matter.

I have no 'numbers proof' at all here, just a guess, but I bet that those that want to "modify/enhance" or have the premium components, does NOT come anywhere near "equal number" to the masses...Speaking for myself, I don't want the best "Tube Screamer", I just want a good one, and so on down the line for say my "dirt" pedals. And I'm somebody that is semi-pro and do care about tone- I'm just cheap (actually, closer to broke )

So for me the phenomena of the "cheapo but well-built modded clone" (or closer to the original design of Pedal X, than mass produced pedal) is a godsend, gives you the best of both worlds. Just being honest!

[JoeNeri]

Originally Posted by Chiogtr4x

So for me the phenomena of the "cheapo but well-built modded clone" (or closer to the original design of Pedal X, than mass produced pedal) is a godsend, gives you the best of both worlds. Just being honest!

Well said, Joe.

[greggorypeccary]

Originally Posted by JoeNeri

FWIW, I've been listening to a whole lot of SRV lately, and not just his most popular songs. I have a 3 cd set of virtually everything he recorded. And I honestly cannot tell which Tube Screamer he's using (TS808 -9 -10), let alone whether it has the 4558 chip in it. And from this listener's point of view, it really doesn't matter.

Really? I only listen to the SRV tracks with a 4558 chip TS.

[telerocker1988]

I'd add the BOSS SD-1 to that list.

I think the mods do improve the stock pedal. I am admittedly a gearhead and tone chaser but I think they do make them a bit better.

[JoeNeri]

Originally Posted by greggorypeccary

Really? I only listen to the SRV tracks with a 4558 chip TS.

I knew some one here would show me the way out of my darkness and into the light!

[Chiogtr4x]

Interesting how it seems like just about ALL OD's/distortions/fuzzes come from JoeNeri's relatively short list! Weren't The Tone Benders basically "modded" Fuzz Faces (or similar?)

May want to add the DOD 250 Preamp or MXR D+ to the list??

[11 Gauge]

Originally Posted by JoeNeri

The manufacturers don't seem to give a hoot as to original vintage chips, etc. (as we do here on this forum), and yet continue to pump out and sell many thousands of these "inferior" pedals every year.

Why would they do this, unless maybe from their perspective and that of their customers the stock pedals aren't inherently inferior? But that wouldn't explain the seemingly equal number of people who need to modify or enhance clone them.

What am I missing here?

Boss/Ibanez/etc. and even Dunlop in some cases (but not all) have realized that there really isn't a huge upside to "improving" their pedals. They sell them just fine warts and all, and it doesn't require any retooling, new parts sourcing, production disruptions (no matter how minute), or anything at all that would diminish profits with a very familiar product. IMO.

People continually ask this about Boss in particular - why aren't they doing more to remain competitive in the 21st century? Simple. As imperfect as their products might be, Roland makes a good and consistent profit from them just as they are.

I also think that some of those companies have learned by their mistakes - the "improvement" pedals along the way that were basically flops. Even the TS9DX is a bit of a semi-failure, and it's kind of interesting that Ibanez continues to offer it.

I constantly reiterate that a stock BD-2 is completely short of it's true potential in stock form. For that reason, I can see why there are so many mods for it, even if I don't think that 99% of them really bring out the "true potential." Even then, Boss has the WONDERFUL OD-3, which IMO is the BD-3 - it "fixes" almost every issue with the BD-2, and requires really no mods. And yet it has a fraction of the popularity of the BD-2. So even when a company hits the nail on the head with something improved, it doesn't mean that the community of guitarists will embrace the improvements.

And not really meant as a knock against guitarists per se, but we are awfully conservative for the most part, and many don't TRULY want to know what might constitute an improved pedal design, for whatever reason. I think we are mostly just "good ignorant consumers," just like people tend to be with clothing, food, or especially "trend purchases." So we keep buying the same things over and over again, just with minor tweaks and different packaging.

..If we (and I don't mean all of us, so bear with me) prefer to stay ignorant with new gear choices (pedals in particular, in this case), then there never will be much of an "evolution away" from the pedals you listed. There's simply little reason for pedal makers to really do that.

Originally Posted by JoeNeri

FWIW, I've been listening to a whole lot of SRV lately, and not just his most popular songs. I have a 3 cd set of virtually everything he recorded. And I honestly cannot tell which Tube Screamer he's using (TS808 -9 -10), let alone whether it has the 4558 chip in it. And from this listener's point of view, it really doesn't matter.

I agree. SRV used the TS9 more as a boost. His amps were cranked, and he used a "full battery" of them. No dirt pedal is going to "shine through" with that rig, unless it's an oscillating Fuzz Factory or something.

Also, Cesar Diaz did a "output/input" cap trick to SRV's rig, basically putting a very small capacitor (roughly .0047uF) in series with the guitar and amp. It chokes a lot of "extraneous frequencies" off, and gives a bit of the signature SRV sound. Diaz also did a bunch of other things to SRV's amps that collectively made them give the "SRV sound" more than the TS ever would. There was a trick to completely switch the trem out of the circuit, to increase gain. V1 was pulled to increase gain. The cathode bypass caps in the preamp were made smaller to tighten things up.

...SRV's sound is "tight, muscular blues" that you can't get with stock amps, a TS, and a Strat. Stock amps (versus SRV's modded ones) in particular will usually always have a "woofy" sound to them, even if you matched the model and year that SRV used.

But the "mystical series cap" was a Diaz trick that is really essential to getting those over-the-top, overdriven neck pickup tones that SRV is really known for. Or at least the story goes (from a pretty good source).

IOW, the mythology of the TS creating "that sound" is completely erroneous. It really is a garden variety dirt box that SRV could have supplanted with anything that he found at the pawn shop the day he first went looking for an OD pedal. It just happened to be green and say Ibanez on it.

[11 Gauge]

Originally Posted by Chiogtr4x

Weren't The Tone Benders basically "modded" Fuzz Faces (or similar?)

Yes!

What a lot of folks don't realize is that the FF circuit was primarily borrowed chapter-and-verse from what was a very standard "preamp-ish" circuit for the day. Arbiter really didn't come up with much that was original - they just made it accessible with your foot!

So many things that followed were basically a FF with just a tweak here or there, and the Tonebender was an instance of that. And that went on for awhile, until something like the Big Muff came along, and Matthews actually paid someone to come up with a completely different design.

...Even then, the Supa Tonebender is about 95% Big Muff!

The average guitarist's "vintage fuzz" purchasing habits are very silly to me. An insistence on either germanium or even BC108 silicon transistors for a fuzz pedal in the 21st century? That is completely irrational, and pedal builders are more than happy to oblige such ignorance. It just gets more silly when you see the old style caps and carbon comp resistors in there, too. All components that were inferior when they were new, and are now obsolete and super-inferior versus other options some 40+ years later.

For every time I hear a guitarist say, "I wish there was a pedal that could do ___," and then they turn around and buy another TS or FF variant, I just have to shake my head. Again, not a jab at guitarists (I'm one too, and I fall prey to this with some gear decisions myself), but we kind of don't have a huge problem with remaining ignorant about a few things. Some of us almost brag about our ignorance!

[Dr. Pants]

Well 11G, let's face it. Few guitar players want to hear that.
It's probably discouraging. And to kill the idea that you can simply
get on a guitar forum and ask "suggest me a good OD" or my personal
favorite, "What's the best OD\ distortion?" means that to truly
find the sound we're after will require WORK. Few want to hear that.
We live in a 'get it now' convenience conditioned culture.

Considering how many people willingly buy endless reiterations of
the Tube Screamer (the Paisley Drive being the latest TS Kool-Aid
everyone is drinking) few seem to want, or have any interest in
anything genuinely new and different.

This is why we see more threads about Wampler, Xotic, Keeley
etc than we do Voodoo Labs, Pigtronix, Strymon etc. You can
sell a 300.00 TS (Boilin Point comes to mind)variant all day long,
but fewer are interested in something unknown until Star "X" uses it.

Keep in mind that I didn't say there are *NOT ANY* threads about those other companies.
I just described the ratio being way off in favor of the popular "known quantities"

Here's a thought: If people *REALLY* wanted a natural, amp like
overdrive, they'd be beating down the door at Machine Head Pedals
for a Galaxie modded BD-2. Am I biased? Heck yes. The first time I plugged
one in I was FLOORED by what I heard. Then I took it to a gig, and played at stage volume. Then I was bowled over. I see regular threads about wanting a natural, transparent, responsive amp-like OD. Here it is, staring everyone in the face, confirmed by every user of said modded pedal, yet people want to stick with what everyone else is using. If the OD-3 was packaged in a Hammond enclosure, with true bypass and used by Mr. Big Name, Boss couldn't keep up with the demand.

All right, I'm stepping off the soap box.

[JoeNeri]

Originally Posted by 11 Gauge

I constantly reiterate that a stock BD-2 is completely short of it's true potential in stock form. For that reason, I can see why there are so many mods for it, even if I don't think that 99% of them really bring out the "true potential." Even then, Boss has the WONDERFUL OD-3, which IMO is the BD-3 - it "fixes" almost every issue with the BD-2, and requires really no mods. And yet it has a fraction of the popularity of the BD-2. So even when a company hits the nail on the head with something improved, it doesn't mean that the community of guitarists will embrace the improvements.

And yet, regardless of the $10 difference between a new BD-2 and a new OD-3, most will buy the BD-2 and spend another $50 to mod it.

Amazingly, there are even modders out there that offer to mod the OD-3.

My favorite, though, is the mod for the Keeley TS9 mod. Imagine, if SRV were still alive to have his own "signature" pedal!

[gretsch630]

How could you forget about the butler/chandler tube driver?
The OCD is also a great pedal.

For modern needs and people on budget the bad monkey (ts808), ds-1 and ocd are great.

My taste though is just the butler, and occasionally ocd.

[gretsch630]

Originally Posted by Dr. Pants

Well 11G, let's face it. Few guitar players want to hear that.
It's probably discouraging. And to kill the idea that you can simply
get on a guitar forum and ask "suggest me a good OD" or my personal
favorite, "What's the best OD\ distortion?" means that to truly
find the sound we're after will require WORK. Few want to hear that.
We live in a 'get it now' convenience conditioned culture.

Considering how many people willingly buy endless reiterations of
the Tube Screamer (the Paisley Drive being the latest TS Kool-Aid
everyone is drinking) few seem to want, or have any interest in
anything genuinely new and different.

This is why we see more threads about Wampler, Xotic, Keeley
etc than we do Voodoo Labs, Pigtronix, Strymon etc. You can
sell a 300.00 TS (Boilin Point comes to mind)variant all day long,
but fewer are interested in something unknown until Star "X" uses it.

Keep in mind that I didn't say there are *NOT ANY* threads about those other companies.
I just described the ratio being way off in favor of the popular "known quantities"

Very true. I took notice of that when I started playing and decided if I'm going to get the most of what I have I'm going to find ME and be original. I don't want to be looking for eric clapton in me because well im not. My pedalboard basically consists of unheard things that are great; butler, fulltone, Strymon and loopmaster.

[gretsch630]

[/QUOTE]
Here's a thought: If people *REALLY* wanted a natural, amp like
overdrive, they'd be beating down the door at Machine Head Pedals
for a Galaxie modded BD-2. Am I biased? Heck yes! The first time I plugged
one in I was FLOORED by what I heard. Then I took it to a gig, and played at stage volume. Then I was bowled over. I see regular threads about wanting a natural, transparent, responsive amp-like OD. Here it is, staring everyone in the face, confirmed by every user of said modded pedal, yet people want to stick with what everyone else is using. If the OD-3 was packaged in a Hammond enclosure, with true bypass and used by Mr. Big Name, Boss couldn't keep up with the demand.[/QUOTE]

lol I definitely support your point

[11 Gauge]

Originally Posted by JoeNeri

Imagine, if SRV were still alive to have his own "signature" pedal!

I've often thought about SRV and gear, and he would think all of this boutique/signature/premium stuff was a load of crap, most likely.

He went with the TS because there was one in the pawn shop that day. No other reason.

He used Strats because his heroes used them, and he used a whammy bar. #1 was number 1 because it was the most comfortable, and not because it was some kind of tonal grail guitar. If anything, it was falling apart. Just like Clapton's Blackie, #1 appears to have been a partscaster. Furthermore, the neck was anything but vintage, with huge frets and a "reworked" radius of 12" due to the constant need for refretting. Apparently, SRV got to play Bonnie Raitt's, Strat, which has the neck re-radiused to about 12", and he loved it (or so the story goes).

...Why is this relevant? Because along with there being a SRV TS (or some boutique offering by someone other than Ibanez), he would have had to contend with the Custom Shop SRV Strat, too. And I think he would have absolutely laughed at that.

No one looks at SRV's gear the way the man himself did. It was all just tools, and he beat that stuff to death. Broken strings, worn out frets, blown speakers. Who do you know that would routinely need stamped steel saddles replaced?

When Diaz first heard SRV playing, he told him that he sounded like s#@t, point blank (good playing, poor tone). I submit that it was the amps and the Diaz tweaks that are responsible for the "toneprint" that didn't come from the man himself. You could have subbed so many pedals for the TS and it wouldn't have mattered, and SRV wouldn't have noticed.

Diaz had to get him to start using a Fuzz Face for Voodoo Chile, too. SRV just didn't really care about pedals that much. But the TS will be forever linked to him.

If a pro uses a certain pedal (or any gear for that matter), it really shouldn't be considered a shoe-in for anyone else. With the exception of pros who are gear hoarders, many famous guys just use whatever their techs/producers/roadies/etc. bring to them, or what they might find in a store "just looking for something."

I couldn't even imagine SRV endorsing any brand. Or at least not for long.

[JoeNeri]

Originally Posted by 11 Gauge

I've often thought about SRV and gear, and he would think all of this boutique/signature/premium stuff was a load of crap, most likely.

Yeah, I'm guessing the SRV signature pedal would have no knobs and no on/off switch (it would always be on) with enough boost to melt a 12AX7.

[11 Gauge]

Originally Posted by JoeNeri

Yeah, I'm guessing the SRV signature pedal would have no knobs and no on/off switch (it would always be on) with enough boost to melt a 12AX7.

And blow out EV speakers...repeatedly! Renee (sp?) had to keep trailers full of those things up on stock when they were on the road, because SRV would blow them regularly.

The EV - a speaker that not even Zakk Wylde blows out, and SRV killed one every 5 shows or so.

As cool as it might have been, I wouldn't have wanted to be SRV's tech for long. Refrets in hotel rooms, a last minute dash to find a piece of plexi to put in front of a dimed Marshall Major (or have the gig cancelled)...

But what you say really got me thinking that SRV might as well had something like that hardwired into his guitars. The guy REALLY needed something more than a stock-ish Strat. I know he wouldn't embrace anything with a Floyd or other modern "improvements," but the guy really needed some kind of newer technology, or "SRV-specific" technology.

...Renee would have LOVED those stainless steel frets, even if he had to play dumb after installing a set. Chances are SRV wouldn't have even noticed...

But the Fuzz Face thing was a real shocker to me. I got to see some footage of shows from the final few years of his life, and I REALLY heard a difference when he played Voodoo Chile. There is at least one scary good performance. I guess we have Diaz to thank for that, even if the Texas Squareface is not considered to be one of the better FF clones. To Diaz's credit, he was kind of picky about the type of germanium transistors used - I think they are actually NPN! That means no "positive ground woes" like other germ FF/FF clones suffer from. Diaz SWORE they were "a little more stable," but he still kept (at least) a pair of them, with one in a 'fridge off stage, ready to swap out when the "hot one" started farting out when the bias went out of range...

It would be cool to go back and see if the Squareface is visible on the floor of those final shows. IDK if Diaz had them made in orange back then (they do come in orange now?).

EDIT: it looks like the Squareface is now PURPLE. And the cost? 225 beans.