Need some general pedal advice...

[GoldGTR]

I'm still on the never-ending quest to go a-n-a-l-o-g (still using a DigiTech GNX2 multifx into HotRodDLX). Last night, I used a friend's Blues Driver, into my VS Route66, then into an Ibanez Chorus. I found that with little tinkering, I got the Route66 to sound great, and used the BD2 as a boost w/ a little more gain. Good semi-clean (Mason) tone on tap. Now the problems...

Problem One: When I played alone, it sounded great. When the rest of the band played I was totally lost in the mix. So, naturally I turn the amp up right? Well, now I'm heard, but still not cutting through. It's hard to explain - I couldn't find the sweet spot and it wasn't responding like my multifx does, to the guitar volume pot. Now the band stops and I strum a chord and it about blows the windows out. Would an EQ help? I'm a little confused about that phenomenon - too loud alone, not enough with the band. Weird.

Problem Two: I still didn't get a good distortion. I mean, I couldn't get that Classic Rock sound (think Stones/ZZ Top/Skynyrd) no matter what I did. I can get that easily with my multifx - problem what that is, it ONLY does that Rock tone well. I usually dial in a usuable Classic tone, then back my volume pot off on the guitar for Country tunes. That's my usual M.O. The problem with that is that it sucks the life out of the natural tone, which I *do* like. I've just been living with it and trading the natural tone suck for good Rock tone.

Problem Three: When I kicked on the Chorus, it was WAAAAY Chorus-y. So, I dinked w/ it for a while and ended up turning EVERY knob down to "0". It still sounded like Chorus too much. Is that normal? Why would it still apply the effect with everything down to absolute zero?

I like the fat quality and adjustibility of the stompboxes, but just can't seem to get the best of both worlds (Good Brent Mason semi-clean tone with a Good Classic tone). With the digital multifx, it does Rock really well. With the stompboxes, they do Country really well. Just can't seem to get both. Maybe I needed a good "distortion" pedal and not an "overdrive" ? But then, wouldn't the distortion box alter the tone, therefore sucking the "naturalness" out of it?

Thanks for any help.

[TheGoodTexan]

Wow. Lots of dynamics there (variables). A lot is going on. I don't have easy answers for all of the problems you listed, but I'll offer some suggestions.

For the first problem you listed....sounds to me like the problem lies within the volume of the rest of the band. If your general tone sounds good to you, and it's so loud that it "about blows the windows out"...sounds like a volume issue (from the rest of the band).

Try this: Ask the band to try something at the beginning of the next rehearsal...just to humor you...just for one song. Everyone turn down low enough that the lead singer can be heard without the mic. Just to see how it sounds. Not asking the singer to strain his/her voice. Just sing normal, and everyone quiet down. See what happens.

As far as the tone thing goes...welcome to the club. I think we all go through what you're describing from time to time.

Just a quick suggestion would be to try to work in just one new pedal at a time. Try using either the Blues Driver or maybe the Route66 as your only pedal for one rehearsal. Just use one of them, and leave out the chorus for now. Don't set the controls to any extreme level, and rely on your amp, your volume and tone controls on your guitar, and your fingers.

If you posted this problem in the main forum, you'd get a couple a'dozen people telling you to learn how to use the volume and tone controls on your guitar, and maybe even drop your pick for a while.

That may sound silly, but I've done it before, and you really concentrate on your technique more....which is the heart of your tone anyway.

Others will probably have good suggestions too.

[GoldGTR]

Originally Posted by TheGoodTexan

That may sound silly, but I've done it before, and you really concentrate on your technique more....which is the heart of your tone anyway.

Others will probably have good suggestions too.

True. Maybe it's just me getting used to being *without* the multifx "crutch" - just getting used to that 'au natural tone. You're right, lots of dynamics, but I'm patient. I'm not a "try it for 3 seconds...OK DOESN'T WORK!"-type of person. I'm willing to experiment with everything to get it right. I realize that 80% of it lies in my hands - I just want that other 10% (hee) to compliment. Thanks for the tips.

[bsm-fan]

Originally Posted by GoldGTR

True. Maybe it's just me getting used to being *without* the multifx "crutch" - just getting used to that 'au natural tone. You're right, lots of dynamics, but I'm patient. I'm not a "try it for 3 seconds...OK DOESN'T WORK!"-type of person. I'm willing to experiment with everything to get it right. I realize that 80% of it lies in my hands - I just want that other 10% (hee) to compliment. Thanks for the tips.

Have you thought about just using the multi fx with a tb loop? That way you could turn it off/on...

http://www.indyguitarist.com/vv.htm

[GoldGTR]

Originally Posted by bsm-fan

Have you thought about just using the multi fx with a tb loop? That way you could turn it off/on...

http://www.indyguitarist.com/vv.htm

Cool idea. I was actually talking about this today, saying it'd be nice to have a way to do that. Thanks Brian.

To address messages from a few others, I don't really think the other guys in the band were too loud. We're really very quiet, compared to many bands I've heard. If anything we get told to "turn it up". Like I said, it was weird. I just got lost in the mix, and I know that doesn't make sense. Means everything else was too loud right? Well, not really. It was the same level it always is, but I didn't cut through like I usually do. Who knows, maybe it's just ME getting used to analog pedals vs. my digital FX box. Maybe it was just in "my" ears, but I didn't FEEL it or HEAR it the way I usually do. I sure could pull off some of those Mason licks w/o all of the digital distortion though...that really turned their heads.

A good friend of mine has a "Nashville" pedal board with tons of the usually suspects on it, so I may try to sneak a <<twang>> or two going thru his to see if that's better with all of the bells & whistles on it. I'm thinking I can get closer to what I'm used to, but still retain that good grit sound by adding a few other ingredients into the recipe.

[genelovesjez]

Originally Posted by GoldGTR

To address messages from a few others, I don't really think the other guys in the band were too loud. We're really very quiet, compared to many bands I've heard. If anything we get told to "turn it up". Like I said, it was weird. I just got lost in the mix, and I know that doesn't make sense. Means everything else was too loud right? Well, not really. It was the same level it always is, but I didn't cut through like I usually do. Who knows, maybe it's just ME getting used to analog pedals vs. my digital FX box. Maybe it was just in "my" ears, but I didn't FEEL it or HEAR it the way I usually do. I sure could pull off some of those Mason licks w/o all of the digital distortion though...that really turned their heads.

I've experienced the same thing - you think you have your sound perfect, and it doesn't work with the band. I think part of it may be that the analog equipment (which I also use) sounds great when you can hear the whole spectrum of the sound (i.e. alone), but when you mix in the sound of the rest of the band, parts of the tone gets eaten up in the mix (that's my theory anyway). Sometimes I just abandon the effects altogether and plug straight in. I don't get the range of sounds I might want, but I can dial in one fairly good sound that cuts through pretty well.

If you play in a two-guitar band (as I do), you're probably competing for space in the sound spectrum with the other guitar. Depending on how the other guitar sounds, you may need more treble to cut through (especially for solos). The high treble setting might sound terrible on its own, but perfect with the band.

It can be frustrating to spend lots of time getting exactly the right tones, then getting in the mix and finding out that everything has changed.

[lenny]

i agree, i'd jack up the treble. it might sound like too much alone, but it will cut right through the mix

[bsm-fan]

Have you checked out the atomic amps yet? supposedly they are made especially for multi fx, and modelers..

[bagpipe]

Originally Posted by genelovesjez

The high treble setting might sound terrible on its own, but perfect with the band.

Oops, I think I may have screwed up the quotes there. Anyway, I just wanted to chime in and say that the above has been EXACTLY my experience. When I was experimenting with a new strat in my basement, I couldnt get it to sound anything other than ear destroying treble. I was going to give up on it but I decided to give it a try the following night at the band practise. Voila ! With the same EQ settings, I was cutting through the mix at less than my usual soloing volume. That has been my experience ever since - one EQ setting at home, and slighty different (more treble !) at practises or gigs.

[JTM45blues]

That treble knob is my best friend some days and my worst enemy other days. On blackface amps I watch the control like a hawk, especially when using my blackguard Esquire clone, as things can get a little "bitey". With my Les Paul I usually use the neck pickup when I'm playing by myself or jamming with a buddy but onstage I'm almost ALWAYS on the bridge pickup, because of the "cutting" power. I hate this because I fear that the audience is getting killed with treble tones some nights, but otherwise I can't cut through. The Esquire will cut like a knife, but I enjoy a little thicker tones much of the time.

One thing I also do is I never carry more than 1 OD and 1 boost pedal to play with the guys. If I use to much stomp box gain, my tone gets lost. I have good luck if I use the OD for my crunchy rhythm tone and then use a boost like my Klon or my old Fat Boost for solos.

[Tim Bowen]

Agreed, what sounds great in the basement often doesn't cut it on the bandstand. After I get my tones at soundcheck, I always add a little treble at the amp. I can always back it off at the guitar, and it's nice to have in reserve (I usually wind up needing it).

Mids are sometimes a dirty word among guitarists, but for single note lead playing, there is no better way to cut a loud live mix. The trick is in understanding the inherent character of your gear, and mixing and matching accordingly - a Tube Screamer mated with a mids-prominent amp such as a VOX is usually not a good fit, although it might be perfect with a blackface Fender. The other trick here is that mids play very differently for rhythm tones of all gain levels - big, thick, mids-heavy tones seldom work well for rhythms and fills underneath a vocal. I set my rigs up such that my rhythm tones are nice and open, and my lead tones are thicker, but not so squashed that they don't cut.

One of the easiest recipes for tonal disaster is to not understand compression. Generally, if you're using a small amp and pushing it hard, you'll want mondo headroom from pedals, and vice-versa. I probably sound like a stuck record at this point, but the best tones I've consistently found for live use have been by pushing the amp(s) at least to the verge of breakup, and backing WAY off the gain from the pedal(s).

Using multiple analog dirtboxes is a great solution for players that need to get a variety of tones quickly on the fly. Personally, I need to go from twang to dinosaur rock at the drop of a hat, so that's the ticket for me. But, you can't just string a bunch of stompboxes together haphazardly... it requires some trial and error, and at least a basic understanding of how different circuits work together (or not). A formula that works well for me:

guitar > fuzz or distorto > low-medium gain "open sounding" OD > dedicated clean boost > amp

Some pedals interact differently, and will need to be swapped in terms of order, and players will have different needs and tastes as well. With analog pedals, you really just have to get in and do the time. You will no doubt encounter comments to the effect of "pedals just suck, straight into the amp is the ONLY way to go". With all due respect, my experience with this type of comment has either been one of two scenarios - 1.) The player does a very stylized type of music and simply does not need a wide range of gain, which is fine. But, more often, the case has been: 2.) The player simply does not understand how circuits and tones and compression work together, and has not taken the time to do so, and subsequently throws in the towel, often with a prima donna attitude about pedals. Hey, circuits is circuits, be they in amps or stompboxes.

Another thing to consider is that the player should be able to get most anything he or she needs at the guitar's volume and tone controls. This is why my "keeper" dirt pedals all "clean up" well from the guitar. I've played many pedals that sound fantastic, but aren't responsive to the guitar's knobs, and those get the axe.

Regarding the "WAY too much chorus" problem - well, many of them are just awful, but that's beside the point. The surefire way to combat this is to choose a unit that has a variable wet-to-dry mix level. There are several that sound great that don't have this feature, but very few are in the budget category.

[Lance]

I posted a while ago about my first gig and how my beloved Rat turned out to be a problem. While I was loud...I disappeared in the mix.

Well, the Rat is back. I was running way too much distortion. Instead, I've also got the amp with a slight breakup (easy with the Superchamp, requires the Mass attenuator with the Deluxe Reverb).....and then adding slight gain for an OD sound using my Klon or using the Rat for the heavy stuff. In both cases, the Klon and Rat are set for very modest gain.

[JohnK24]

Leave the Rt. 66 at home. I had one and finally sold it. I could NEVER find a decent "non muddy" tone on the overdrive side of that box. Too much mids happening. The only other idea is to set the compressor side of it for a good boost and leave the comp. knob in the lower position (say 9 o'clock) and try it with the blues driver (using it with the tone knob in the 9 o'clock position and the gain at 11 o'clock).

ymmv,

J