Mixing buffered and true bypass pedals?

[Mr Kite]

Hey,

Having been a big pedal geek at one time, I've now slimmed down to hardly anything, and have been playing 'straight in' so I got back into electric after two years of dedicated acousticness...

But I've started working with a band and I think a little delay would work really well, and I've already borrowed and fallen in love with the EH Memory Boy, but I just wanted to ask how to mix different pedals...

Having become used to playing a Tele/Strat via a 10ft lead into my princeton RI, I've become accustomed to the 'crystal clear-ness' of that clean tone, and can definitely notice the highs that disappear when I use my Big Muff (which won't be on the board!) so I'd like to maintain as much of my signal as I can...

My setup will be pretty simple:

Boss Tu-2

MXR Micro Boost

EH Memory Boy

and, possibly, a Boss RC-20xl

But there's a possibility that I'll be adding a volume pedal at some point too...

Regarding the RC-20xl, I can hear some noise from that pedal, and was wondering about having it running on a separate loop, like with a Boss LS-2, to bypass this...

That would leave me with:

TU2 - MXR - Memory boy - Ls-2 (with rc20xl in loop) - amp

As I understand it you really want a buffered pedal in front of any unbuffered ones to drive the signal, and one afterwards to bring it back up again, is that right?

Sorry for all the questions, it's been a while since I was into pedals, and I used to not care at all about signal degradation before!

[HenryAdams]

Hello, there celebrated Mr. K.

I just recently went through this as well:I have 8 pedals (all TB), 10' of cord in 15' of cord out, and my guitar was sound dull. So I built a dedicated buffer, and my lord, I've got the sound back that I've been desiring. My buffer is the second thing on the board, after a fuzz that likes to see the guitar signal directly. I don't think you need a buffer both at the beginning and the end, unless you've got a ton pf pedals (more than 8). With your setup, the TU2 will probably be fine--Boss is supposed to have pretty good buffer in their pedals (I get this information from Sr. 11Gauge; I don;t have any Boss pedals myself). Hell, you might not need any buffers at all.

Incidentally, it's funny that your Muff adds noise: maybe you have one of the pre-TB ones? If that's the case, it is stupidly easy to mod a Muff to TB.

You also mentioned that you've got a second Boss pedal, which, if I'm not mistaken, would have a buffer in it as well. So it sounds like you are totally set.

[telewacked]

Originally Posted by HenryAdams

Hello, there celebrated Mr. K.

I just recently went through this as well:I have 8 pedals (all TB), 10' of cord in 15' of cord out, and my guitar was sound dull. So I built a dedicated buffer, and my lord, I've got the sound back that I've been desiring.

Do you mind sharing what you built and how you built it (kit, pcb, etc?)

thanks!

[HenryAdams]

Originally Posted by telewacked

Do you mind sharing what you built and how you built it (kit, pcb, etc?)

thanks!

Oh, right. I meant to post that. I built the IC booster from General Guitar Gadgets. http://www.generalguitargadgets.com/...category_id=14

I built it without an LED or stomp switch, just a SPST toggle, and it works very, very well.

It's super easy to build, they give you a bill of materials, which you can order from Pedal Parts Plus or Small Bear, and you'll have a booster pedal for, oh, about 20 bucks.

If you have better DIY and schematics reading skills, check the AMZ site, and Beavis audio. They have a few types of booster that you can build for, literally, pennies.

[Mr Kite]

Originally Posted by HenryAdams

Incidentally, it's funny that your Muff adds noise: maybe you have one of the pre-TB ones? If that's the case, it is stupidly easy to mod a Muff to TB.

It's about ten years old so yes I believe it's not TB...

The only thing that concerns me is whether the 'buffered' signal from the TU-2 will affect how my amp reacts to my guitar's volume and tone knobs - if it converts a high impedance to low, then doesn't that change what's going into the amp? Isn't the amp expecting a high impedance signal or does it not really work like that?

[HenryAdams]

Originally Posted by Mr Kite

It's about ten years old so yes I believe it's not TB...

The only thing that concerns me is whether the 'buffered' signal from the TU-2 will affect how my amp reacts to my guitar's volume and tone knobs - if it converts a high impedance to low, then doesn't that change what's going into the amp? Isn't the amp expecting a high impedance signal or does it not really work like that?

That's a question that will have to await wiser TDPRI folks; all I can say is that I set my Peavey Classic 30 up for super cleans (I get all my dirt from stompboxes), and it sounds wonderful! Chimey, sparkley, wonderful. I guess probably the best advice is to let your ears be your guide...if your amp sounds unpleasant with, say, just the tu2 in your signal chain, then you've got your answer.

[Telenator]

For the benefit of Mr Kite, I too have a Boss TU2 in front of my pedals, (true bypass) except for one, and I have no complaints about the sound at all.

[fly135]

Originally Posted by Mr Kite

It's about ten years old so yes I believe it's not TB...

The only thing that concerns me is whether the 'buffered' signal from the TU-2 will affect how my amp reacts to my guitar's volume and tone knobs - if it converts a high impedance to low, then doesn't that change what's going into the amp? Isn't the amp expecting a high impedance signal or does it not really work like that?

No it doesn't work like that. A low impedance output does not negatively affect anything down the chain, unless what's down the chain depends on tone suck to get a good sound.

That might sound a bit weird, but it's common for some fuzz pedals to not sound good after a buffer. This is because when the circuit in the fuzz pedal is engaged it depends on sucking tone to sound right.

[11 Gauge]

Originally Posted by Mr Kite

My setup will be pretty simple:

Boss Tu-2

MXR Micro Boost

EH Memory Boy

The TU-2 puts a buffer right at the beginning of your chain. Try putting a cheap Boss or Ibanez (or other buffered bypass) pedal at the end, and give that a listen.

I have no hard and fast rules for mixing the two. It usually just requires some experimentation until you find a combination that works for you.

Some pedals actually don't sound as good with a buffer in front of them, too. This is because they have a lower input impedance. For instance, I don't like a buffered pedal in front of a Big Muff because it makes the treble frequencies a bit piercing in some instances. And a pedal like the Blackstone Mosfet Appliances was designed to have a low Z in.

...I'm not saying that any of this might be relevant to you, but there may be something with your pedal order that requires a little bit of tweaking. Of course, when you only have three pedals in your chain, it kind of eliminates most of the experimentation.

[11 Gauge]

Originally Posted by Mr Kite

It's about ten years old so yes I believe it's not TB...

That means that in bypass mode it is killing off some top end. I think that the stock switch can be rewired for TB, but you'll lose your status LED (not a major issue with a pedal like a Muff, IMO). But if someone is going to the trouble to rewire the stock switch, it probably makes more sense to just replace it with a 3PDT so that you can keep the status LED.

A pedal that is "mechanical bypass" and isn't true bypass can still drag off your treble frequencies even with a buffer added. If you don't want to do anything invasive to a pedal like that, you can get a little looper box that mechanically bypasses the effect (you then just leave the pedal itself "on" all of the time).

[Ed Boyd]

Just EQ the amps to compensate. :D

[nic'o'caster]

A fuzz does not sound that bad after a buffered pedal but it does react differently. It does not clean up as well. Some pedals (fuzz, filters) are made to receive a high impedance signal.

One of my pedals has a switchable buffer. I can tell you the difference was really audible when I had only true bypass effects on my board and I switched the buffer in. Instant clarity. True bypass is good but 100% true-bypass can be a long way from your guitar to your amp for a so tiny signal, you loose a lot of treble due to capacitance.

A well placed buffer helps for consistancy, without tone differences when you switch a pedal or another one on.

[andrenighthound]

Originally Posted by Ed Boyd

Just EQ the amps to compensate. :D

Which results in more NOISE

[11 Gauge]

Originally Posted by nic'o'caster

A fuzz does not sound that bad after a buffered pedal but it does react differently. It does not clean up as well.

A stock silicon Fuzz Face will rip your head off with the treble content if you place a buffer in front of it. A germanium FF is a little better only because the circuit's bandwidth acts as a limiter of sorts.

...But a FF "wants to see" a load at the input because it is current driven as opposed to voltage driven. It's why it cleans up so well. In the case of a silicon FF (where you have the bandwidth/headroom), it tends to clean up too well (piercingly bright as you roll down your volume).

Someone once explained buffers as a sort of "firewall" between circuits. For this reason, they work great for isolating or "dividing up" all of the electronics in your signal path. Some pedals have internal "unity gain stages" whose primary function is to do exactly that.

In the case of dynamics with guitar, you have to be careful with buffers for this reason. They are potential "dynamics nullifiers."

[nic'o'caster]

Thanks for the technical explanations. Makes sense.

I love this board !

[telewacked]

I've used a Dyna Comp at beginning of my pedals for a long time (when I use a wah, it goes first). It seems to work well for me, but I wonder if I'm missing something. My other pedals are a mix of buffered and TB, tuner, OD's and time effects.

A typical setup is DynaComp-->StroboStomp-->Nobels ODR1-->OD/Dist #2-->Gyatone delay-----> amp

Pretty simple. Do you guys think anything would be gained by putting a buffer in the chain?

Thanks..

[Mr Kite]

So having messed around a bit today I've found out a few things...

1) Big Muff likes to go first - sounds much fuller than when it's after my TU-2

2) Big Muff kills sparkle...

3) Big Muff is cool but too much!

So, obviously, the big muff is going to be resigned to the studio box...

Have been thinking about what I would actually use in a band situation, and I think the RC-20xl isn't something I'd use live (it's more a practise tool) so that's off the (imaginary) board...

I definitely think a volume pedal will come in handy, (was thinking an EB Jr?) and also a compressor - probably a dyna comp for ease of use.

So I was wondering if you could put a compressor AFTER a delay pedal to mash the delays down if they start oscillating?

[FrankB]

Interesting thread, I'm having a problem with my ts808 in my chain.... here's the signal
Boss Tu2, crybaby, dod fx25b envelope filer, Fulltone octafuzz, box big Ben overdrive, ts808, fulltonedeja' vibe, ibanez cs9, peavey ddl3, ibanez ge9.
My 808 sounds lifeless... had it in different positions in the signal chain...
Alone its a different pedal.. in the chain, it sounds weird.. low volume, flabby just awful..help

[dmarcus30]

Originally Posted by andrenighthound

Which results in more NOISE

Ya can't EQ "back in" what never reaches the amp in the first place. I use a Valvulator I tube buffer and it sounds great. All the harmonics and over/undertones are preserved. There are cheaper buffers than the VI, and most guys never go without once they hear what it restores to even a medium-length signal chain.

[belecky]

There is only one pedal in my boad that wants to be in the first place :) it`s zoom ultrafuzz.