Durham Sex Drive

[TDPRI]

OK, twice people have started posts on this and twice it's been brought down in flames.

I don't want to start another thread about the SD, but I do want to clarify some misconceptions.

It is our policy that Vendors should sit on their hands when discussion of another Vendor's product comes up on the board. To do otherwise does a serious disservice to everyone here. Add to that that it is rude and self-serving.

Competitors in the marketplace should show courtesy and respect to each other always. And posting your "opinions" about a competitor's products is just you saying that you think you're a better builder, engineer or whatever. That's conceited and greedy thinking.

Ron Kirn does not slag other builders on the TDPRI. He lets his product speak for itself. He doesn't need to criticize other builders. And, neither do the Vendors in this forum.

We cannot (and will not) let one or two Vendors ruin the TDPRI because they think so highly of themselves that they are EXPERTS and others make a rotten product. (See comment above about "conceited and greedy thinking.)

So, Vendors keep MUM about other vendor's products. Take the gracious high-road and keep your opinions of their products to yourself. If you don't like another Vendor's product, fine keep it to yourself and they'll be more likely to return the favor when discussion of your product comes up.

PS. And non-Vendors don't egg on Vendors into these kinds of turf wars.

[Deep South]

I was disappointed to see my original thread get out of hand like that. I feel kind of bad for posting it now.

[davidge1]

Obviously there's a line to be drawn, but...

I think that a big part of what makes discussions on gear interesting are people with a lot of knowledge to share. Those people are going to tend to be the most opinionated... there's no way around it. Often, they get their knowledge from their own experience building these products. If these people aren't free to discuss products and give their opinion on them, what would they have to talk about and contribute? Nothing much. I don't take anyone's opinion as the gospel, I can make up my own mind about products. One person's opinion is just a tool to help you learn more about the product or similar products.

Also, it seems that unless someone states publicly that they are a vendor, then they're just another anonymous poster just like anyone else... and not necessarily being arrogant in any way.

Just my opinion... I'd hate to see more people with a lot of knowledge to share disappear from this board... the way another 0l' contributer with a lot of knowledge did a while back.

[Ronkirn]

Did I miss something????

Ron Kirn

[E5RSY]

Originally Posted by davidge1

Also, it seems that unless someone states publicly that they are a vendor, then they're just another anonymous poster just like anyone else... and not necessarily being arrogant in any way.

Yeah, I'm especially confused now because neither of the, uh..."opposing" parties are actually registered as vendors here. I can see limiting the behavior of those so registered; but unregistered...laissez faire.

At any rate, although it might have been a bit ugly and painful at times, some good information and knowledge was conveyed from both sides over the course of it. For my money, that's the basic purpose of a forum. Right? Civility should, of course, be maintained, but just because an opinion may be a bitter pill does not make the statement thereof an act of malice to be reined in.

[davidge1]

Regarding vendors who don't want to register as vendors, I think a more common sense policy would be: Don't ask, don't tell... and if you do have knowledge that someone else is a vendor, don't "out" them.

No one participating in that discussion, to my knowledge, ever made it known that they were vendors... the problem started when people with that knowledge brought it to everyone's attention, IMO.

[dalandan]

It's a shame that those threads had to go down. It was really getting ugly in there. I agree though that you shouldn't be commenting on your competitor's products for the sake of courtesy and etiquette.

Maybe vendors should be asked to have a disclaimer in their signature as to what company they're affiliated to. I remember feeling like a fool while commenting on a certain product and getting positive comments from other forum members and it turns out that one of them was the builder not introducing himself! I didn't know until someone pointed it out a day or two later. The lack of transparency turned me off big time. Anyway, thanks for hearing me out. I won't bring this up again.

[schenkadere]

The vendors(registered or not) are educated users as well and can give some insight into products that typical users would never know on their own. It's a fine line. If a vendor is dissing anothers product and comparing it to one of his own, then I see how this applies, but if it's general discussion about the build or quality, I appreciate the comments as a forum user.

Criticizing for ones own gain would be wrong, where discussing and voicing opinions is what this place is all about. I didn't see anything intentionally harmful to anyones business in those initial posts.

[Mike Simpson]

Originally Posted by Ronkirn

Did I miss something????

Ron Kirn

Hey Ron, ya know I have always respected your wealth of knowledge and generosity in sharing as well as your understated witty comments... but now you are a role model too!

[Ronkirn]

now you are a role model too!

Uh Oh . . . Oooooo the pressure.. .. .


rk

[TDPRI]

I agree that Vendors shouldn't skirt the rules by avoiding becoming a certified Vendor here.

But it only makes sense that if you make a stomp box and another guy makes a stomp box that you demure when asked in PUBLIC to comment on the other guy's product. And, making it worse, they aren't even asked to comment, they do so on their own bringing their own biases into the mix -- and their own profit motive as well.

Get a VP from from the Ford Motor Company and a guy from General Motors on a public stage and ask each about the other's product. You can bet that they will be gratious and magnanimous with each other. Never putting the other down. In private they might act differently.

Well, it's no different here. This is a public forum and to attack a competitors product like this is just not right.

Some of you say, "yeah, but they bring their expertise." But they also bring their bias and their competitive desire to make more sales along with the expertise. It's not an unbiased opinion.

[schenkadere]

I'd like to see where the initial "attack" took place. There was no malicious intent.

Guess you shouldn't allow vendors to post at all with the chance that this could happen.

I've never even seen a guy like .011 promote his own work here.

I think the whole thing is ridiculous. Now the forum puts up a post called Durham Sex Drive...should we consider that promotion? It's all very nit picky.

Ok...so, I'm not a vendor, merely a consumer...will I now be spanked if I say a pedal "sucks" or is built like crap?

I find any childish flaming more offensive than a critique of a pedal. That's what should be more of an issue. I come here to not be bombarded with nonsense like many other forums and now it has begun here as well. If folks aren't free to give honest evaluations and opinions, then what's the point? I understand the forum taking this from a business/vendor standpoint, but it really is a fine line. If I give negative feedback on a pedal, it may cause a loss of a sale same as anyone elses opinion.

[Jakedog]

Originally Posted by TDPRI

I agree that Vendors shouldn't skirt the rules by avoiding becoming a certified Vendor here.

But it only makes sense that if you make a stomp box and another guy makes a stomp box that you demure when asked in PUBLIC to comment on the other guy's product. And, making it worse, they aren't even asked to comment, they do so on their own bringing their own biases into the mix -- and their own profit motive as well.

Get a VP from from the Ford Motor Company and a guy from General Motors on a public stage and ask each about the other's product. You can bet that they will be gratious and magnanimous with each other. Never putting the other down. In private they might act differently.

Well, it's no different here. This is a public forum and to attack a competitors product like this is just not right.

Some of you say, "yeah, but they bring their expertise." But they also bring their bias and their competitive desire to make more sales along with the expertise. It's not an unbiased opinion.

The gist of this is right on the money. Any time in my life that I have been unfortunate enough to have to get a job, and not play guitar for a living (which thankfully hasn't been often) it's always been a sales job.

In any sales arena, there is competition. Not only form your competing vendors, but from other sales people within your own company. That's just the nature of the beast.

I learned the little tidbit I'm about to share really early on, and it can really make or break you in any business-

Never slam your competition. It may get you a few sales, but in the long run, will hurt more than it helps. Anytime a potential sale ever asks me about a competing product, I praise it. And let's face it, if somebody is asking you for your take on a competitors product, they ARE a potential sale for YOU. You say things like (shortened, generic-fied, and paraphrased) "oh yes, that's a fine product. I've researched it pretty deeply, and it does a,b, and c very well, I certainly understand why you'd consider it. On several levels it compares quite favorably with our product."

In a public forum where your competition is present, whether it be an internet forum, a dinner party, or anything else, that's what I call "'nuf said". It shows courtesy, and confidence, and it's 98% sure that your new potential sale will contact you to find out why you are so confident in your product that you can praise the merits of the competition. At that point, you can still be kind to the competition, you can just focus on your own product's merits, and be diplomatic in showing why yours is clearly the better choice for the customer's specified needs. The flip side of the coin, is that it can ONLY work in your favor to have your competition present when you say things like that. They have two choices- Praise you back, or look like really sleazy folk with low confidence in their product when they slam you after you've been so professional.

That said, I didn't see anything coming from the party in question that would be the least bit out of line were he not an undisclosed vendor. I think if a general forum member had made the same observations and comments, it could not be called anything but one man's opinion, and a valid critique based on the knowledge he had readily available. I see no foul in that whatsoever. Where I do see site admin's point in this case, is that the party in question IS an unlisted vendor. I seriously don't believe for a second that said party intended any malice or ill feelings, or meant in any way to harm anyone's business or livlihood. But I do undertsand how it could, and apparently did appear that way to several other parties invloved.

I just hope we can all move on. I enjoy the input here of pretty much everybody who got involved in the discussion in question, and although it's my opinion that some of them handled the situation poorly, I'd hate to see anybody have to leave the site over it. That would just suck. Hopefully there's something to be learned here, and we can avoid this crap in the future.

[LakePlacidBlue]

Since we are talking about forum policies, how about this thread:

http://www.tdpri.com/forum/stomp-box...y-diy-sho.html

If you are giving instructions about how to make DIY's of your competitors pedals. I don't see the good manners here either. I don't personally know any of these vendors we are talking about, I don't own any of their pedals and I'm not planning to buy any, so no affiliations.

I'm not trying to offend anyone, I just would like to know how to behave here myself.

[AngelStrummer]

Originally Posted by Ronkirn

Did I miss something????

Ron Kirn

I read most of the two threads, and it wasn't pretty. Entertaining perhaps, if you're the kind of person who enjoys rubbernecking when passing by a car crash.

Paul hits the nail right on the head when he makes the example of the Ford an GM execs on a public stage.

I'd have thought it was fairly obvious that on a forum like this, any vendor's critical opinion on another vendor's competing product cannot be credibly objective - all it does is create bad vibes for everyone, which is not what the TDPRI is there for.

[schenkadere]

Originally Posted by Tremolo7

Since we are talking about forum policies, how about this thread:

http://www.tdpri.com/forum/stomp-box...y-diy-sho.html

If you are giving instructions about how to make DIY's of your competitors pedals. I don't see the good manners here either. I don't personally know any of these vendors we are talking about, I don't own any of their pedals and I'm not planning to buy any, so no affiliations.

I'm not trying to offend anyone, I just would like to know how to behave here myself.

Good point.

So...if we aren't vendors anything pedal related goes?

[vjf1968]

I personally come here for information and if a more experienced person has a technical insight on a piece gear whether good or bad is an asset. True one vendor trash talking about another is just self serving. But to go into technical detail why a certain product has certain flaws is not a bad thing. Some folks just have more experience than others. It's when the critique gets dragged into juvenile name calling is when it becomes bad. And in the end serves no one.

Getting advice from someone who builds pedals from a kit like BYOC is not the same as someone who builds them from the ground up. So when someone like 11Guage gives a critique of a pedal I tend to take notice. I even bought pedals that he was not impressed with becuase they worked for me but I do value his opinion becuase he knows more than I do about the subject. I am man enough to own up to that.

[TDPRI]

Originally Posted by schenkadere

Good point.

So...if we aren't vendors anything pedal related goes?

Of course! That's just the point.

Even if you don't know someone is a Vendor, they know it. And, they need to be grown up enough to not comment on a topic like that. But CONSUMERS -- users, players, these are the opinions we care about and come here for.

Vendors cannot, by nature, be assumed to be objective when the subject is a completing product.

PS. Yes, Consumers can have biases too, but they don't earn their livelihood on the subject at hand.

[TDPRI]

Originally Posted by vjf1968

But to go into technical detail why a certain product has certain flaws is not a bad thing.

I think it is when it's not an objective opinion. Plus, one Vendor's special features may be seen as a "flaw" by a competing Vendor. Rightly or wrongly.

The fact that the Vendor is not unbiased makes a huge difference. At least, when it's two consumers discussing this there is not profit motive and professional bias involved.

It's not about stifling opinions, it's about good judgment and deportment in public between two competing companies.

[stax]

I’d personally be glad of the advice if a pedal I had my eye on turned out to have a circuit board covered in goop, had SMC, cheap switches etc, that to me would be why I would be on a forum in the first place.
It’s all good info, which you’re probably only going to get from experts such as 11 gauge.
We all know he builds and sells pedals and pedal mods but doesn’t push his stuff by slagging off others imo, just brings to attention some of the things he judges aren’t up to scratch, he also often recommends pedals or boards by other builders
I think the contribution he makes to the pedal and diy community on this forum is second to none and he goes to great lengths to help sort out problems and answer questions.
It would be a shame if he felt he could no longer contribute.
Stax