Why Can't They Make A Good Acoustic Simulator?

[sax4blues]

Our church has a Yamaha keyboard (not sure what model) and it has acoustic guitar settings that sound very nice. So I wonder why the available acoustic simulators sound so unrealistic? Can't they just use the same program as these keyboards?

[StuH]

The new keyboards today sound realistic because they are triggering samples (pre-recorded instrument performances) mapped across the keys. Not the same as synthesis or modelling.

You would need a guitar equiped with a midi pickup and a device (keyboard, virtual synth, effects packages for midi) that has this type of sample bank and accepts midi input.

.... or a polyphonic analog to midi converter but the problem here is even the high end converters tend to miss the mark. This on the fly conversion is far from dependable.

....synthesis won't do it, and modelling technology though constantly improving is not up to par yet for pure audio realism . Give it 10 or more years. The Variax modelling guitars sound like real bad piezo equiped acoustics.

[pango_twango]

The Boss COSM effects engine usually includes patches for "Acousty," "wide acoustic," "bright acoustic," etc (those are just the ones I remember). I wouldn't say that they make a tele sound just like an acoustic. But they make it sound close, to my ears. As with any patches, you have to devote about 3 weeks tweaking the settings, and after that I found it passable. One weird thing I noticed is that, with the acoustic simulators, the speakers the amp was connected to made a huge difference.

I wonder if modelling the "boomy-ness" of the acoustics is the real challenge. Also, I guess it's fair to point out that the patches sound like a miked acoustic, not an acoustic at a campfire (or in a rowboat, or at a mexican restaurant) with no amplification. I admit there's a sound difference there.

[play_loud]

The Variax might not sound so good but what about the VG strat? From what i've heard it (on youtube) it is pretty decent.

The worst simulator i've ever heard is by far the BOSS one. Very shrill and sounded like nails on a black board. Although I must say I am by no means a fan of BOSS effects in general.

Still, even the behringer sounded better.

[Tim Armstrong]

In a world full of great-sounding acoustic guitars, I say "why bother?"

I know, I know, it'd really be handy to be able to make your Tele or Strat sound just like a nice D-28 at the flick of a switch. Me, I think that'd just be TOO easy...

Cheers, Tim

[studio1087]

I'm biased. I play an equal amount of acoustic and electric. You cannot simulate an acoustic because the tone is far too complicated. Acoustic simulators are kind of silly.

[superlightweigh]

I had the chance to A/B my buddie's Strat with the LR Baggs bridge against the mags through the acoustic simulator built into my Vox Tonelab. The Vox sounded better to me for both picking and strumming open chords. Which leads me to believe that Vox was onto something with their simulator. If they ever sold that as a stand-alone I think that eventually the word would get out. If you ran an electric through the Tonelab and into a decent acoustic amp??????

[getbent]

whoever says the variax acoustic sounds 'not good' just can't dial them in... I have fooled a ton of people with good ears (including people here) with how 'real' they sound...

I record with mine and I have to remind myself that it wasn't 'real'...

are they ugly... okay, I'll grant that... but those guitars sound good.

[play_loud]

I probably would have gotten one (Variax) if it weren't for the body design as I am quite impressed with its sounds, just not the looks. At the moment I cant fork out anything over a grand for a guitar I can only see myself using in the studio and not on stage. If they made a tele variax (or VG telecaster for that matter!)... i'd so hit that.

[getbent]

stay tuned on the looks of the variax... we may have a little suprise for you in a couple of months.... and there are guys who have been transplanting them for years... if i can have a tele variax, it will be my gigging guitar.

[StuH]

Originally Posted by getbent

stay tuned on the looks of the variax... we may have a little suprise for you in a couple of months....

Cat is out of the bag



...Sorry couldn't resist.

[David Barnett]

Originally Posted by getbent

stay tuned on the looks of the variax... we may have a little suprise for you in a couple of months.... and there are guys who have been transplanting them for years... if i can have a tele variax, it will be my gigging guitar.

"We"?

[fakeocaster]

Why bother?

Everyone should own a good acoustic

[superlightweigh]

I'm not made of money, but Warmoth does make bodies that will fit the Variax....

If some "little guy" out there mapped out the specs for the cavity, and sold a nice Tele shaped body to fit it, well..... hint hint nudge nudge

[sax4blues]

Originally Posted by fakeocaster

Why bother?

Everyone should own a good acoustic

My interest is for live playing where I want to play a part of the song acoustic. I do see acoustics mounted to stands that you can walk up to and play with the electric hanging. I'd rather just push a button for the 1 or 2 times in an evening that the variety of an acoustic section would be cool.

[getbent]

Originally Posted by fakeocaster

Why bother?

Everyone should own a good acoustic

Why bother? because it is a hassle to switch guitars (unless you have a guitar tech) during a gig... it slows down the entertainment and takes away from the music.... so, being able to play one guitar is a big advantage.... not to mention that each guitar will probably need adjustment at the amp etc... so that is why folks bother... better for the consumer, less hassle for the musician...

I'd agree that everyone should have a good acoustic (I own a couple).

[fakeocaster]

Im not trying to be smart but Ive never found a problem switching guitars depending on the song.I did pick up a Boss AC2 in a close out sale, and its the most expensive paperweight Ive ever found.If I wanted a sound like that Id play an ovation

[vjf1968]

You can always buy a Taylor T5 electric/acoustic. It has a transducer in the body that gives the acoustic sound a more realistic tone than a piezio. And with the 2 pickups you can go from an ES335 tone to a humbucker to a tele like tone. Plus you can use any kind of strings on it. Its not a vintage Martin by any stretch but it is handy when you want different sounds with out having to switch guitars and use any modeling.

[vjf1968]

Originally Posted by fakeocaster

Im not trying to be smart but Ive never found a problem switching guitars depending on the song.I did pick up a Boss AC2 in a close out sale, and its the most expensive paperweight Ive ever found.If I wanted a sound like that Id play an ovation

I don't think a lot of people have a problem on switching guitars its the other yahoos in the band who have a problem. Especially bass players and lead singers.

[David Barnett]

They make electro-acoustic piezo bridges that will fit a Tele or Strat.

[superlightweigh]

anybody ever tried one of those hybrid Godin guitars? I've been curious about those but don't see them in stores that often

[sax4blues]

As the OP can I change the question?

Since the thread has turned to A: AC simulator good idea / B: AC simulator not good idea.

New question: If an AC pedal (simulator/modeler/soundmaker) came out that was awesome in every way, would it have a place in music(ref A above), or would it still be one of the legs in the axis of evil(ref B above)?

[bradpdx]

The simple reason it isn't done is: it would be extremely difficult to map the VERY random sounds from all the possible electric guitars to anything remotely like an acoustic. At best you might be able to map ONE guitar using ONE particular setting to SOME acoustic sound, but generalizing past that would be somewhere between really hard and impossible. Another way to put it is "expensive", if you like.

If such a thing did exist, would it work well in real life? It probably would be very odd to play, as much of the "style" we each evolve on acoustic and electric instruments is tightly related to the physical nature of each instrument. For example, when I play Bluegrass on my HD-28, I depend upon that big box and medium gauge strings (013 - 056) to provide direct mechanical feedback to my hands, body and ears. Without that, it becomes a different animal altogether. As a result, I find that I really cannot "flatpick" my Tele or Strat with regular electric strings (010 - 046) - it just doesn't work the same way, even if I play the same notes. The mechanical feedback is entirely different and inappropriate, and so I play quite differently.

I'll stick with real guitars and leave simulator to others, thanks. Everything I have works just fine and doesn't need replacement.

[David Barnett]

Fishman Aura just might do this thing.

[bradpdx]

Originally Posted by David Barnett

Fishman Aura just might do this thing.

I have an Aura, and it is along the right lines of engineering thought. However, it is HIGHLY dependent upon the source, and that is the problem.

The Aura works as follows: A target acoustic guitar (e.g., Taylor 715 or Martin D-28, etc.) is fitted with a known undersaddle pickup (Fishman, of course). The guitar is then recorded with a target microphone (e.g., Shure SM57 or Neumann U-87, etc.) and with the pickup simultaneously. The two signals each represent the sound of the guitar from two different sources. A "map" that approximates the behavior of the microphone based upon the pickup signal is then calculated. This data set is referred as an "image" in Aura terminology. This map contains information about EQ, time delays and phase information.

In practice, you must use an image that closely resembles your own guitar, or the "map" will no longer work correctly and the sound will be terrible. For this reason Fishman provide many image files, each representing some combination of guitar and microphone.

The Aura then allows you to choose your image file and other settings as a "program". To imagine how this works, I might decide that my small-bodied Martin sounds the best when using the image file "Martin 000-16 with SM57", and I will use that in Program 1. I might then create a second program using the same image file but with gain boosted lead sound and call than Program 2.

When I plug in my Martin HD-28, I must use different image files or the sound is HORRIBLE. So I create a few more programs using image files appropriate for a rosewood dreadnaught, and these become Program 3, Program 4, etc.

This scheme works reasonably well because Fishman is attempting to keep the number of variables low. If my guitar has EQ on board, then the Aura image mapping may fail. If I attempt to use effects prior to the Aura (compression, reverb) the poor thing is hopelessly confused because the map is broken.

The problem with an acoustic simulator for an electric guitar is that the number of variables is simply huge, with different guitars, pickups, volume and tone controls all the in mix. The other big problem is that there is no reference for the map, because mic'ing the electric guitar won't yield useful information - it has no acoustic reference point like D-28 does because it does not produce a usable acoustic sound.

Finally, there are guitar amps. Our lovable tube guitar amps are great for electric tone generation, but are very poor high fidelity devices. Even a great acoustic guitar tone fares very poorly blaring out from an old Fender.

I ain't holding my breath on a useful acoustic simulator. I don't think I'd want one even if it worked.

[getbent]

Originally Posted by sax4blues

As the OP can I change the question?

Since the thread has turned to A: AC simulator good idea / B: AC simulator not good idea.

New question: If an AC pedal (simulator/modeler/soundmaker) came out that was awesome in every way, would it have a place in music(ref A above), or would it still be one of the legs in the axis of evil(ref B above)?

change is hard. If the device is good and works... i'd use it, but it would struggle in a market that is mostly rearward looking.

[David Barnett]

Originally Posted by bradpdx

I have an Aura, and it is along the right lines of engineering thought. However, it is HIGHLY dependent upon the source, and that is the problem.

Have you ever tried, just as a science experiment, to plug an electric guitar into it?

[badmelonfarmer]

Originally Posted by getbent

whoever says the variax acoustic sounds 'not good' just can't dial them in... I have fooled a ton of people with good ears (including people here) with how 'real' they sound...

I record with mine and I have to remind myself that it wasn't 'real'...

are they ugly... okay, I'll grant that... but those guitars sound good.

they are very good guitars and yes they are not lookers!

I hav found a lot depends on what you play it through and how you EQ / effects the variax acoustic mods.

I think they are great, on day I would love to transplant the guts ov a variax into a tele :-)

[badmelonfarmer]

Originally Posted by getbent

stay tuned on the looks of the variax... we may have a little suprise for you in a couple of months.... and there are guys who have been transplanting them for years... if i can have a tele variax, it will be my gigging guitar.

sounds VERY interesting... I am listening

[David Barnett]

I can't imagine how anyone can tolerate the Variax, they sound grainy and harsh to me. The acoustic Variax, in particular, is a mix-killer.

For real ear pain, though, a Variax through a Line-6 amp. Ouch.

[Colt W. Knight]

If you make a synthesized guitar that sounds as good as my Martin Ill still stick with my Martin because it won't run out of batteries.

[Colt W. Knight]

Originally Posted by getbent

whoever says the variax acoustic sounds 'not good' just can't dial them in... I have fooled a ton of people with good ears (including people here) with how 'real' they sound...

I record with mine and I have to remind myself that it wasn't 'real'...

are they ugly... okay, I'll grant that... but those guitars sound good.

I got to say Im one of these people. The one I played I didnt like at all.

[bradpdx]

Originally Posted by David Barnett

Have you ever tried, just as a science experiment, to plug an electric guitar into it?

Certainly. If I plug an electric guitar into the Aura, it sounds like an oddly modified electric guitar, since the source (my solidbody Tele or Strat) bears little resemblance to the signal from a real acoustic guitar. It still has all the sustain and other characteristics that make it not the least acoustic sounding. The Aura was never intended to alter the source in that way.

It strikes me as a problem perhaps not worth solving; I cannot recall a single instance during 30+ years of gigging where I would want to shift sounds in that way. When required, I bring an acoustic rig but then I get the whole package - heavier strings, low sustain, real wood.

[David Barnett]

Originally Posted by Colt W. Knight

I got to say Im one of these people. The one I played I didnt like at all.

I don't want to "dial it in". If the presets don't sound good, I'm not inclined to dig deeper. I've heard the acoustic variax plugged into a quality DI box into a well-tuned PA, and it was fatiguing and phony. And that's just the regular 6-string guitar setting. Getting into the other voices, such as dobro or banjo, was headache-inducing.

I hate products that give you enough rope to hang yourself. Versatility is extremely overrated in my view. I don't mind guitars or amps that only have one tone, as long as it's a good one. Plug my Telecaster into my Marshall 18-watt clone, and I cannot make it sound bad. Plug the Ric 12 into my blackface Deluxe-Amp, and there's nothing but good sounds at my disposal. And that's the way I like it. Seems to me that, the more versatile you make a guitar or amp, the more you run into having a whole selection of sounds that range from bad to mediocre at best. Like a channel switching amp where the clean side isn't as good as a blackface Fender, and the dirty side isn't as good as a Marshall. I say it's spinach and to hell with it.

[crawdad]

I heard a Variax player last night who went through a bunch of guitars and presets. To me, they all sounded like a hundred dollar guitar though a Behringer amp--cheap. It is a great idea on paper but a disappointment in the real world. And, believe me, I wanted it to work. If it did, I would get one. The truth is, it doesn't sound as good as the "old ways."