Will Multi effects evetually deem stomp boxes obsolete?

[octatonic]

Originally Posted by Big Mike Simpson

many are useless... who uses a ring modulator anyway??

Me
Adrian Belew
Trent Reznor
John Lord
Chick Corea
Tony Iommi (Solo on Paranoid)

It is also famous for the Darlek voice in Doctor Who.

Ring Mod's kick ass. :-)
IMHO it has to be analog.

[play_loud]

Today I thought of a major advantage that multi-effects pedals have over individual analogue stomp boxes, which I do not believe has been raised yet.

Picture this… You’re a regularly gigging musician and your set usually consists of a hefty amount of songs. Due to the nature of how you have recorded your songs in the studio, and your willingness to replicate these sounds faithfully on stage, you often find yourself not only switching between effects, but adjusting these effects in between songs (lets assume you are the average muso who doesn’t have a roadie to do this for you).

Ie/ Jimmy (not to be confused with Hendrix) always likes to use a small amount of compression live, but for one particular song in his set, which involves a lot of clean finger picking work, he needs that little bit extra. So he always finds himself having to bend down to crank his favourite Keeley Compressor before the song, and then re-adjusting it back to its regular level after the song.

Similarly Jimmy also uses different amounts of Phaser and Overdrive for different songs. For some songs he needs a really ballsy over the top overdrive, and for others, a more subtle bluesy overdrive. He doesn’t have nor want to own a large pedal board which has multiple replicates of the same effect (simply set to different parameters).

Jimmy decides he’s had enough of blindly crawling about on his knees under the harshness of stage lights so he decides, enough is enough, and he heads off to buy the new Digitech RP-500.

Jimmy creates a preset for every one of his songs in the set list, and names them appropriately. Here’s an example of what his presets might look like.

Preset Effects

1.Analogue Pedal Blues – Compression (light), Overdrive (light)
2.Chick’n Pick’n Is Finger Lick’n – Compression (moderate)
3… Compression (light), Phaser (light)
4… Compression (light)
5… Compression (light), Phaser (heavy)

etc, etc

Because of the new novel new interface, swapping the order of presets is easy, so Jimmy can always be sure he has the right preset for the right song if he starts at the first. One brief stomp between songs and he's set to go!

So here, Jimmy isn’t using a multi-effects pedal because sound quality doesn’t mean as much to him because he is using a substantial amount of effects at the same time (in fact, no more then two), he is using a multi-effects pedals because he needs to use the same effects in different ways.

This opens up a whole new avenue for musicians.

In foresight, people are probably going to reply saying: “I or he or him or her only uses two or three universally-set effects live.” I say… Well that’s great, but I’m talking about this particular hypothetical. With these kinds of requirements, I’d love to hear your alternative (which doesn’t involve hiring a roadie or getting down on my knees).

Sure, there will always be someone who is intent on using nothing but a single treble boost pedal (Eric Clapton & The Bluesbreakers, anyone?). In that sense, analogue effects will never become COMPLETELY obsolete. But I do think it will become somewhat of a luxury... as other people have said, add increasing environmental burdens and manufacturers desires to cut costs into the equation and there goes the tube amps/ analogue pedals we know and love!) Were tube amps always as expensive as are now? One of the MANY reasons I wish I was born in the 50's.

Thanks everyone.

Chris.

[vjf1968]

As much as there are many good points for and against multi-effect pedals. I think the discussion is getting a tad bit redundant. No one knows what is going to happen in the future, the only thing we can do is wait and see.

[claudel]

The revolution has already happened....

Blatantly stolen from the Axe-FX Wiki description

What is the Axe-Fx? Well, let's start by telling you what it isn't.
It's not a modeler in the strict sense. Although it has cabinet
emulation and different amplifier "types" it does not attempt to
model any amplifier or effect exactly. Rather the Axe-Fx was
designed to simply provide the effect as originally intended and
with the utmost quality. All effects can be described in terms of
their desired sonic manipulation. All effect processors, whether
"stomp boxes" or otherwise, process the input signal to get an
output signal, simple as that. However, some processors obviously do
better than others. The Axe-Fx approaches effects processing as a
strict set of specifications and implements those specifications.

The Axe-Fx does not use any analog processing or any tubes. If you
look inside the Axe-Fx you will not see any glowing tubes or any of
the revered op-amps that the analog pundits claim offer mystical
sonic properties. What you will see are modern, high-quality
components that offer specifications and performance far exceeding
any of the aforementioned devices.


Routability: The Axe-Fx allows you to place effects in any order and
in series or parallel. Also, the effects loop is routable as well so
if you use your Axe-Fx with a preamplifier you can place the
preamplifier in the effects loop and run effects both before and
after your preamp. Some effects work better when placed before
distortion (which your preamp would provide) and others work better
after. By providing a routable effects loop the Axe-Fx allows
unrivaled flexibility.

Programmability: The Axe-Fx allows extensive programmability of each
effects parameters. You are not constrained by the limitations of
"one-knob" processors where little if any editing of parameters is
offered. In addition, many effects offer advanced editing capability
allowing in-depth programming. Usability has not been sacrificed
though as most effects have a basic setup page allowing quick access
to the most used parameters.

Controllability: Many of the parameters in the Axe-Fx are
controllable in real-time. Both internal and external controllers
can be attached to various parameters offering dynamic control of an
effect. Additionally these controllers allow mapping the control
value to the effect parameter through a transform so even greater
control is afforded.

Multiple Effects: The Axe-Fx has all the classic effects plus a few
new ones. And for most effects you get two instances so you can
really create some huge sounds. The Axe-Fx works on the principle of
an "effects inventory". You take an effect out of inventory and
place it in the routing grid and then connect it to other effects
and connect controllers to it (if desired). If an effect has
multiple instances you can withdraw another instance of that same
effect from the inventory and place it at another location in the
grid.


Concept

The Axe-Fx works on the concept of an effects inventory and an
effects grid.


The effects inventory is a virtual stockroom of effects. Effects are
removed from the inventory and placed into the effects grid. The
grid is a four row by twelve column matrix. Once an effect has been
placed in the grid it can be connected to any other effect in an
adjacent column. Routing beyond the adjacent columns is not
permitted. Figure 1 shows the conceptual model along with a somewhat
simple routing. The input feeds the “WAH” block which feeds an “AMP”
block which in turn feeds the “CAB” block, etc. A second series path
has another amp and cab and this path is added to the first path at
the input to the chorus (CHO). Signal flow is always left-to-right.
We’ll cover routing in more detail later.

Every effect has a common input-output structure. The input sums the
outputs of the effects that feed into the effect. Each effect can
have up to four inputs from the previous column. In turn each effect
can feed its output to up to four effects in the subsequent column.

The Output Mixer (the block labeled “OUTPUT” in Figure 1) sums the signals from the four rows.
The Output Mixer allows mixing and panning of the four rows and overall level control.

The effects inventory is listed below:


Noise gate
Gate/expander
Compressor
Multiband compressor
Drive
Amp simulator
Cabinet simulator
Chorus
Quad chorus
Flanger
Phaser
Rotary cabinet
Wah-wah
Filter
Formant filter
Graphic equalizer
Parametric equalizer
Crossover
Delay
* Looper
* Stereo diffusor
Multi-delay
* Quad-series delay
* 10-tap delay
* 10-tap rhythm-tap delay
* Diffusor
MegaTap delay
Reverb
Pitch shifter
* Arpeggiator
* Custom scales
* Arbitrary custom shifter map
* Faster pitch detection
* Pitch corrector
Synth
Vocoder
Ring modulator
Resonator
Stereo enhancer
Pan/tremolo
Volume/pan
Mixer
Effects loop/aux out
Feedback send/return


Despite the huge arsenal of effects at your disposal, the Axe-Fx
first-and-foremost emphasizes sound quality. Unique to the
processing in the Axe-Fx is our proprietary natural processing
algorithms. Many of the algorithms in the Axe-Fx replicate patterns
that occur in nature (this is where our company name was derived
from). The reverb algorithm replicates the sound of a real room, the
chorus and flanger use special variable delay algorithms that are
more natural and smooth that any pedal (analog or digital) could
ever achieve and the amp simulations use unique, dynamic,
non-linearity generators that produce smooth, even-ordered harmonics
giving a depth to the sound that other processors lack. Almost all
the effects in the Axe-Fx are full stereo (except for the Amp,
Drive, Pitch and Multi- Delay effects) allowing for rich,
full-sounding signal chains. And by using two Amp blocks you can
achieve a true stereo, dual-amp rig for really huge sounds.

This is only the effect descriptions...

Up to *10* at a time with possible routings that are not available with other multi-effects or with discrete analog pedals.

The amp & speaker simulation descriptions and much more (including demos) are available either at

Axe-Fx Wiki

or

http://www.fractalaudio.com/


It is all that & more.

This is absolutely the most impressive music gizmo I've yet run across in over 40 years of string mashing.

Many famous & semi famous players seem to agree.

I'm not a name dropper, but the info is out there...

It *does* require an effort to program, but there are literally hundreds of usable patches
available either stock out of the box or from the patch-sharing website.

It's not cheap, but it's produced by a small company with a hands-on owner in the US and costs less than one "boutique" amp.

I've used & loved a couple of generations of Vox ToneLabs ever since they first were released, but this gadget is a
quantum leap in sound quality, variety of available effects/amps/cabinets and usability...

[hippietim]

Originally Posted by claudel

It already happened





www.fractalaudio.com



Amps too.

This is a startlingly great piece of gear. I am using mine in my current band and it's flippin' fantastic. The amp tones are great. The effects are on par with Eventide quality (I have actually pulled my Eventide Eclipse out of my rig).

I don't use a lot of effects very often but it's *really* nice to know you've got them when you want them.

This thing is incredibly flexible. It's not terribly difficult to use but it's harder than an amp and pedals simply because it does not have discrete physical knobs like an amp and pedals. Once you get the hang of turning virtual knobs everything works like the knobs on your amps and pedals.

I get a lot of compliments on my tone from "regular" folks as well as other players.

[hippietim]

Originally Posted by Flat357

Care for a bit of both ?



Anyone tried the Spider valves ?
Apparantly Reinhold Bogner is the secret weapon .

I had one of these and ended up returning it. The amp itself is fine. Not great, but certainly better than a lot of stuff out there. The delays and reverb are fair but the rest of the effects are pretty much terrible.

[hippietim]

To the poster that said no pros are using multi-fx - I see pros using them all the time. I also see pros using stomp boxes. I also see pros using guitar, cord, and amp.

Different strokes, right?

I have a ton of stomp boxes. I have several multi-fx units. They are all cool and useful.

My band does a bunch of covers. We do stuff from James Brown, Black Sabbath, REM, Ozzy, Doobies, INXS, Gov't Mule, Pearl Jam, Flock of Seagulls, etc. (you get the idea). I typically use a H-S-H Floyded guitar and my USACG 12-string Tele into my Axe-FX Ultra - this is a killer rig with tons of versatility. At the same time it isn't a crutch for me. If need be, I can (and have) covered all of this material with a Gibson Melody Maker with a 1 single coil sized humbucker with wrap around bridge into a JCM 800 clone with my pedalboard.

I also know that playing small places where the audience is literally no more than 10 feet from your amp, you simply cannot play at the volume that tube amps and pedals sound their best. Modeling and multi-fx technology isn't perfect but it is an incredibly effective way to get stellar tone and good mixes without killing anyone's ears.

[hippietim]

Originally Posted by studio1087

Sam Ash sent me a $100 card for any purchase over $499 so I snagged one of these on Saturday to experiment with. So far I am really digging this. It is VERY cool. As is, they did a great job. It is more flexible than I thought it would be. It sounds better than I had hoped for. They can updated the software to add more functionality down the road - Line 6 has tends to be pretty good about providing at least one substantial update to these sorts of products.

Also, after hauling my heavy-ass pedalboard around yesterday for an open jam session I'm thinking this new Line 6 M13 may become my new grab-n-go rig.

[DavidP]

How big is this thing? I really like the concept, but wonder about reliability from incessant stomping on those switches when gigging. Unfortunately, I have not had good past experiences with Line 6 stompbox switches (went through 2 DL4 replacements) so that is a concern. But given the price, why wouldn't you get a X3 Live and just turn off the amp modelling?

[guit30]

I have heard a lot of road guitarists like the Boss GT-10, convenient, don't know if in a stadium, a person could tell if you are using a Keeley or Barber.
I just ordered a Barber Tone Press, was going to get Wamplers Ego Sqausher ,but it looked really similar to the tone press, plus it takes 4 weeks to wait on Wamplers stuff
Jim

[hippietim]

Originally Posted by DavidP

How big is this thing? I really like the concept, but wonder about reliability from incessant stomping on those switches when gigging. Unfortunately, I have not had good past experiences with Line 6 stompbox switches (went through 2 DL4 replacements) so that is a concern. But given the price, why wouldn't you get a X3 Live and just turn off the amp modelling?

It's 12" deep x 15" wide. The switches seem pretty sturdy - I never had a Line 6 footswitch fail for me but obviously time will tell on this one.

As for this vs. the X3. There are several reasons:

• Sound quality. My past experience with the PODxt Pro was not good using it solely for effects. The effects on their own always sounded thin. This was not the case with the individual stomp boxes (and the rack versions as well). Perhaps the X3 addresses this better. I dunno.
• Flexibility. You can actually conjure up some more interesting combinations of effects with the M13 than you can with any of the PODs.
• Simplicity. You only have to sit down and play with an M13 for a couple minutes to realize that in terms of usability this thing is very much like real stomp boxes. There are almost no menus to scroll through and there are lots of knobs which translates into no paging to adjust stuff.
• Durability. The X3 Live just felt cheap to me.

[andy__woods]

I would love to get my hands on the VOX Tonelab SE or the Line6 POD X3, but I don't have the cash. Pedals are nicer in that sense, because you can just accumulate them over time and build your sound piece by piece.

This has been touched on already, but I think the main benefit is the ease of use with the stompboxes. 2-3 knobs on average is hard to beat as far as simplicity goes

[Dave Mack]

I have a Tonelab SE which has been great but the thing is flipping huge.
I just ordered the Line 6 m13 after watching some clips off YouTube.
The Edge liked the distortions of the DM4 so much that that is all he used on the last record and his guitar tech went out and bought like 6 of them since it can only store 4 settings.
http://edge-equipment.tripod.com/id72.html

Live, Line 6 made a custom rack for all his saved sounds. The M13 has the DM4 in it as well as 3 other boxes and the verbzilla, (worth it alone for the octo setting) and some others.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7U4L-Coo9N0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OVE308yT7tE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dPPSu8tcg_8

[T.C. Madison]

Originally Posted by play_loud

Individual stomp boxes may become a thing of the past. What do ya'll think?

no way!
stomp boxes are way too cool to become a thing of the past..
they look 100x cooler then multi-fx
and (whats most important) are way way way more fun to collect

[garytelecastor]

Originally Posted by vjf1968

Seriously, it may just happen. The digital effects today sound better than ones do just 5 years ago. People seem to waste time chasing that elusive "tone" but fail to accept the fact that the audience that you play in front of really just do not care.

My feeling on this is that I don't try to be the best I can because the "people in the audience" care. I try to play and sound the best I can as a pursuit of the perfection of my art. I find that the digital effects units that are currently out there are good, but like most players that use pedals, the options of a pedal board and different manufacturers are what sends me to pedals over multi-effects everytime.

[Montana_Dawg]

I picked up one of these a while back. I really like it. It doesn't have the COSM like the ME-30 and ME-50. It is also a lot sturdier.

Check out the sound samples. This little unit packs a big punch.

[Tonemonkey]

But with decent modelling at your arsenal, will anyone in the audience be able to tell the difference?

Who cares if the audience can...we can.

I owned a GT-8 and it never made the hairs on my arms stand up.........my Keeley TS-9 on the other hand...through a decent amp, of course

Saying that, when I play a lead break it normally makes the hairs on the audiences heads stand up (whether digital or analog)!

[FrankB]

for some folks I'd say, yes. But for me personally I use an rp250 for home recording and it has changed they way I do things for the better, though my live rig is all individual pedals and I believe you can hear a difference in tone depending on the music for sure. I don't believe they will ever overthrow analoge or stomp boxes in general, that's a general "never gonna happen" kind of thing. For instance, if you run a ts808 through a vox ac30 for your gigs and substitute an rp250 and use that vox and 808 it's not even close.... but some people will feel o.k. about doing that and that's fine. I wouldn't it though.

[Bill]

I wonder if it takes a special kind of mindset to use a multi-effects box?

Since I play at home, mostly older style electric blues, I use one overdrive pedal and that's enough. So I can't even begin to wrap my head around multi-effects.

I don't know what I'm gonna do when my Line 6 Gearbox Gold Bundle arrives in a few days. It has 78 amplifiers, not counting the bass amps, cabinets, effects, microphones, etc. But for $99 delivered to my doorstep, I couldn't refuse.

Anyways, I think one thing that would help is if guitarists could get romantic about the multi-effects boxes or some of the boxes became classics. That's how we are about our guitars, amps, and pedals. The problem is, with multi-effects, it's largely about software, which gets better so fast that any box is likely to be out of date in 18 months. Maybe someone will come up with a pricing scheme that takes this obsolescence into account--for instance, you buy the Whatever Box(tm) for $399, and every two years you can buy the new version for half off.

Even some hardware pedals have so many versions, that I don't want to buy one because I fear they'll come out with the next one soon and imply the previous ones weren't that hot. Got a Fulldrive II. Then I had to get a Fulldrive II FM. Now there's the Fulldrive II FM MOSFET. Next there'll be the Fulldrive II FM MOSFET with Bunny Slippers, rendering my slipperless, MOS-less version an embarrassment.

So I end up running back to my pre-70's equipment.

[Tonemonkey]

Even some hardware pedals have so many versions, that I don't want to buy one because I fear they'll come out with the next one soon and imply the previous ones weren't that hot.

Then people will realise that the new version isn't as good and come back to your now more valuable "classic" tone pedal!

That won't happen with the Boss GT16, rendering the GT-8 a vintage MFX, much sought after for its vintage digital representation of analog tone.

[Gary in Boston]

I think perhaps as we get further and further from the original source of that sound which we seek? By that I mean, much time and effort is spent on recapturing the vintage sounds of this amp or that fuzz box. After a while the pretty close copy gets to be close enough as to become the new accepted version of that sound and the real one gets, if not forgotten but less important.

It's a bit like photography. I shot slides for years. There is nothing quite so beautiful as Fuji 50 / Valvea exposed correctly. The imgae is burned onto the film base sharpe and quite stunning. My stock agency stopped excepting slides Jan 08 unless scanned. So now I shot digital only. The digital stuff is good but the Fuji 50 was stunning. There may always be a "market" for the stunning stuff but what America needs is using is the digital 95% of the time and most everybody thinks that is just perfect.

Gary

[stantheman]

Nah. Don't get me wrong I love my ultra primitive Zoom 1010 - with the right Amp, aka one that's "Dry". But stomp boxes ARE cool. And some stomp boxes are down right amazing.
But I know nothing unless I'm going through either a 70's Peavey Classic or a Twin Reverb the only boxes I use are a Tech 21 for the Peavey and a Sparkle Drive for the Twin.
IF I had been blessed with "studio player talent" I'd have gone "whole hog" I'm very certain.

[Nick Fanis]

for me they are already obsolete.

I have been dragging around boutique pedal loaded pedalboard after boutique pedal loaded pedalboard for years (heck I have to change my avatar!! ) until I found the ONLY multi effect pedal that sounds better (in ALL effects including "dirty" sounds),is LIGHT,has a ton of features that I definitely need for what I do (tap tempo for all modulation effects and delays,2 expression pedals etc) and costs as much as a SINGLE boutique overdrive pedal I had on my board .

The one and only (in fact I have TWO)



I just use this w/ a good compressor pedal (a EH Tube Black Finger or a JAM comp) in front of my tube amps (most times in stereo) and I sound 10 times better than I used to w/ a gazillion boutique pedals.

Furthermore I now play guitar instead of tap dancing...

It took a bit of time to really get to know it and to program it correctly but it was worth it!

[play_loud]

Originally Posted by Nick Fanis

for me they are already obsolete.

I have been dragging around boutique pedal loaded pedalboard after boutique pedal loaded pedalboard for years (heck I have to change my avatar!! ) until I found the ONLY multi effect pedal that sounds better (in ALL effects including "dirty" sounds),is LIGHT,has a ton of features that I definitely need for what I do (tap tempo for all modulation effects and delays,2 expression pedals etc) and costs as much as a SINGLE boutique overdrive pedal I had on my board .

The one and only (in fact I have TWO)

That looks truly awesum!!

What is it? LINK ME. Haha.

[Montana_Dawg]

Originally Posted by vjf1968

As much as there are many good points for and against multi-effect pedals. I think the discussion is getting a tad bit redundant. No one knows what is going to happen in the future, the only thing we can do is wait and see.

True, but being in the industry, I can see what is happening now, and what will happen in the near future.

Many manufacturers are already curtailing many discrete components (through hole resistors and capacitors, etc.), and are mainly concentrating on surface mount technology and small architecture ICs.

Embedded technology is becoming more and more prevalent in electronics designs, even in music products.

The Digital Signal Processor (DSP) technology is becoming so good that they have already matched a TS-808 near enough to perfect as to not even tell. It is still way too expensive to market yet, but that will change in a few short years. Look how far the Line 6 modeling amps have come in a relatively short time.

There are literally billions of old parts out there still floating around. However, as mentioned before, they are dwindling in numbers. the law of supply and demand dictates that they will become more and more expensive as the supply is depleted. It won't be long when boutique pedal makers won't be able to compete at all with the newer technologies because the prices for those pedals will be extremely prohibitive.

Also, the environmental concerns are starting to take on steam here in the USA. The RoHS standard is being adopted by the majority of component manufacturers. There will come a day when all lead components will no longer be allowed to be sold. That day is not too far away. Since much of the "vintage" parts are no longer made, that means that those type of pedals will no longer be able to be produced as well.

[briansr]

Originally Posted by studio1087

Line 6 M13 Link

i think this unit is by far the closest you can get to a multifx that really replaces stompboxes.. its great, best bang for the buck.. it has the simplicity and the true feel of single pedals, send/return loop, real time manipulation of each effect, the capability to switch between them and placing them in whatever order you want.

The AxeFx is way too complex, maybe good in studio... since you have to literally design your effect from ground up. it gives you far more options but way too complex and unpractical for live playing

[Dave Mack]

Originally Posted by Nick Fanis

I have this too. For direct recording it is pretty good as the tube inside makes it sound less sterile than just the average amp modeler IMHO.
The M13 that I now have has some really great FX though. Better delays than the VOX IMHO.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fF-ksdlkxP0

Here's a vid I made with some guitar improv with the M13 4 delays at once(!) patch.

[Shadowrunner]

here's my take on this. if you've been playing for a few years, never gigged/been in a band, have 1 or 2 guitars and amps, a ME can be great. saves cash and space.

now, if you gig a lot, been playing for a long time, part of a band, or what have you, you KNOW what sound you want and how to get it. you've played hundreds of guitars/amps/effects, so you use pedals, because even the best ME will not perfectly model (or even close, IMO) anything. it just won't be the same as actually having the real thing right there in front of you.

[Rena Rune]

See I like the individual personality of each box. Multi-effects are nice but not the same. I like to just hrow 2 or 3 pedals together and play, I don't even use a pedal board. The thing is there are so many pedals it's impossible for modelers to keep up with all the individual personalities of every pedal. I'm not just looking for a high quality Flanger, I'm looking for a specific Flanger sound. Playing live isn't the only thing I'm going to be using it for, for bedroom practice and recording it's important.

[Cattytown]

My thoughts? I doubt individual pedals will ever totally disappear - they are where quite a bit of innovation takes place to be modelled elsewhere.

Some analogue components may well dry up, making those pedals impossible to produce, unless sufficient demand can be raised to produce component manufacture runs.

MEs have better options for programmability - as has been mentioned, set up the routing and settings for each individual song, and simply slect appropriately. That gets in the way of a jam a little though, so for the ME to be practical it has to be tweakable by either toe or fringer quickly. That makes menus awkward. Something like the line6 is good, as it has for "pedals" with their own knobs. If those knobs had soft labels, so assign a delay or phaser an the kobs are labelled appropriately, and the knobs have a position indicator that is visible (I like chicken knobs for FX) and allow the ptision of the knob to be set for a preset (so that will be either servos or use encoders instead of pots with a position indicator) and we are getting close to be usable.

Then it has to sound right...

Paul.

[dalandan]

nuh uh

[Rena Rune]

I'd really like to emphasise a point that hasn't been touched on much(except in my last post), and that's the fact that most multi-effects boxes will not contain the kind of sounds many of us are looking for. The mere fact that it has a good Chorus or Flanger does not mean it has the Chorus or Flanger I'm looking for. While it's often subtle, some versions of effects sound drastically different to another - for example compare the more transparent Moon Phaser to the MXR Phase 90. Dirt boxes especially tend to sound very different to one another, it can't be avoided. Most of the time Line 6 only models one or two of each kind of effect. That's no good, first off I won't be able to get the Phaser sound I want, and second, I won't be able to get TWO Phaser sounds I want; maybe I have two or more phasers?

That's not to say Multi-FX are souless, far from it. I have very fond memories of playing around on my old crappy Zoom pedal. With a multi-effects, you're exploring a little world of effects given to you, and there'll probably be something you like there.

I think in the future what we may see is the death of the ginormous pedal board to some extent, and see multi effects aided by 2-10 individual stomps. This will only happen when multi-effects guys understand how important individuality is. Because of this though, the important aspect of being able to store all your sounds are lost - what we'll see in future are single stomps with the ability to interface with multi-effects, and multiple effects loops that can be turned on and off for older stomps without this technology.

The stompbox modelers are a step forward, but there's kind of a nice thing to being able to "collect" the pedals you like like action figures or stamps.

It just doesn't seem like a step forward to remove the single stomps entirely. Music is getting far too homogenous as is.

[shades]

Since I'm an old Analog Bastard I'll keep my stomp boxes and valve amp.
IMO digital gear is absolutely flat,dead and lifeless.

[Rena Rune]

Have you tried the Stereo Electric Mistress? I couldn't believe it was digital. Maybe it has some analogue components.

[giantslayer]

At this point, multifx are too difficult to operate to replace stomps entirely. Of course, programing a multifx is a lot like operating a computer, so we could see that change in a couple generations.

Multifx replacing stomp boxes is foreseeable for a lot of people. On the other hand, they currently limit your options of which stomps you can have on a single patch. I use a multifx and have to admit that it would be nice if all the effects I use could all be in front of me at once, rather than having to make different patches to have different effects on tap. This problem may be addressed in the foreseeable future, though.


The other frontier: amp modeling, has a loooong way to go before it can replace real amps. Yes, the sound quality isn't up to par (no, I haven't tried an axe fx). Also, they are very difficult to program and dial in, compared to real amps. Another problem is the need for amplification for a modeler. There are some decent options out there, but it is pretty difficult to figure out what to use to amplify your modeler with, and a lot of folks who are currently doing this aren't completely satisfied with the amplification they have.

[StuH]

Originally Posted by giantslayer

At this point, multifx are too difficult to operate to replace stomps entirely. Of course, programing a multifx is a lot like operating a computer, so we could see that change in a couple generations.

I think that quote really sums things up well.

In the future what I think may happen is a modular multi effects system.
Individual stomps with tradition knobs that have a half a dozen really well done pre-sets that can be setup up much the same as way as traditional stomps. Every thing neat and tidy and in one place. If the user prefers to delve deep into preset programming, attach the mothership and program away. Once done detach the mother ship and use your pedal like any other stomp.

I think the dissconnect for alot of people with mfx systems is how detached a messy the system is. I guess the disconnect is sound quality to but that is improving quickly.

[pengipete]

Interesting that so comments are about the user interface rather than the sound. As someone who is very comfortable with computers and a numerical approach as well as having many years experience with separate pedals I prefer the way that multieffects work.

The main thing for me is the single button recall. I can program an entire pedal-board's worth of settings and assign them a single value. With 40 or 50 user-programs and no need for that many totally different sounds, I set them out logically with each bank having related patches - maybe a slight difference between two or three patches that I can use in different parts of one song.

I think that any musician playing covers in a variety of styles or form different eras will benefit from this flexibility and ease of patch change but those playing in a band with it's own sound or playing one particular genre will probably be better off with a few pedals and be happy to make smaller changes via the guitar and perhaps a volume pedal.

What I would like to see is separate pedals that are programable allowing us to keep the sound quality that comes with that particular pedal but use our own variations easily throughout a song or a set.

[giantslayer]

My take on it is that, if you are using a modeler to replace stomp boxes, it's not that hard to use and dial in. The quality is also pretty darn good, especially for time and modulation type effects, a lot of which are digital in individual stomps anyways.


Amp modeling is where it gets sticky. That's where it gets complicated and a lot of things can go wrong. Then, once you get it dialed in, finding something to play it through that sounds "right" is another potentially complicated, frustrating experience.

Then there is the issue of sound quality. There are two problems that I see that most modelers can't overcome. One is that tubes naturally impart certain qualities to the sound that seem to be very difficult or impossible to reproduce digitally. Two is that preamps and other components in an amplifier are not simply there to add color to the sound - they treat the low level guitar signal and bring it up to line level for the power amp in such a way that preserves signal quality as much as possible. The fact is that, from an audio perspective, your typical floor modeler is a very poor quality preamp. This is, IMO, one of the main reasons why tube amps have more "presence." Is that fixable? Sure, at least to an extent, but it's also not doable at the price point these things sell for. I'm sure the AxeFX has got to have some decent quality preamp components in there, in addition to the heavy amount of processing power.

So, the best way I can see to remedy all of those problems is to go to hybrids with tubes, like the Line6 spider valve. Go with the amp and modeler together in one unit to eliminate the hassle of figuring out what amp to get for it. (Or make the amp separate from the modeler and sell it as a power cab.) Treating it with some decent quality tube amplification and pre-amplification will help a lot. That's where I see the amp side of modeling going in the next decade or two.

[photoweborama]

Like others have said... NO, NO, NO, NO!

[Silverface]

On the contrary (to the original question) - there are FAR less multi-effect units on the market now than there were 15 years ago, when rack systems were in vogue and everyone needed a an SPX90, Quadraverb, and another rack unit for 30 different distortion types.

But it really didn't take all that long for players to discover that no matter what brand or how expensive the unit, at least half the "effects" or "amp patches" were lowest-common denominator units. You were NOT gong to find a Klon Centaur, ZVex Fuzz Factory, Lovetone Meatball, or the tone of any of the Way Huge devices, for example. You ended up with "averages" of Boss, Digitech, Ibanez and other commodity-item sounds. They are reasonably functional, but if you are a real tone freak looking for your on individual sound you won't find it - there's always something lacking (usually MORE than one thing).

BTW - ALL my time effects and some modulation ones (the Blue Hippo most notably in the pic below) are analog. CHEAP delay units are digital and lack the warmth of analog - which is why so many players PREFER analog.

The statement about modeling effects being "easy" is totally incorrect. Jorge from Way Huge, who went to work for Line 6, was never able to duplicate his OWN effects digitally. And I've never heard a digital boost/OD that equalled a Klon, Micro Amp or Bad Bob. Not even close.

Yes, you can get and endless array of effects in a multi-unit. As mentioned previously, though - how many do you actually USE - and of those, how many REALLY sound outstanding?

They have their uses. I have a POD XT I use for recording, and on rare occasions I use it live for one or two songs - I can get some particular tones for pedal steel that work well live, and the new Dumble amp emulation works for SOME things - but OTOH it doesn't have the touch-sensitivity of a real Dumble amp. The effects - 100% of them are adequate at best and lack many of the controls of the stompboxes (and all of the little-known trim pots inside many, many stompboxes that you can REALLY tailor your sound with).

This "debate" died at least 10 years ago when boutique stompboxes because really strong and the number of quality multi effects units dropped of the table. now you have multiple offerings from companies most tonally-concerned players would not consider as far as stompboxes; and if you aren't going to use one of their inexpensive stompboxes why on earth would you use 30 of them packed into one rack or floor unit ? Instead of one path to poor tone you end up exponentially increasing your chances of sounding bad.

Every one in a while you find one or two cheapo stompboxes that works for some reason (a couple of the new $15 Dano pedals are incredible) - but for the most part you get what you pay for with effects, which is why the boutique guys have a market. And you just can't duplicate a finely-tailored group of specific effects with a multi-effects unit.

Seriously - I had to look and make sure this thread didn't drop out of 1989 or something.

Just one gig's particular setup - which varies depending on venue and band (sometimes consisting of TWO Pedaltrain boards):



Find me ANY multi-effect unit, and I guarantee there is NO 2-in one; no Blue Hippo; no Green Rhino (although there will be the usual generic Tube Screamer clone attempt; this box has its own sound not duplicated anywhere else); no Micro Amp; and certainly no Mr. Echo with the "slam" switch. Oh - and no Phase 90. There is often a Phase 90 noted, but a REAL one is a noisy, tone coloring unit that is unique....and by "cleaning them up" the multi-effect guys change the sound, and NOT for the better. And I also guarantee you'll not find an FL9 Flanger - which is one of the wierdest, most bizarre-sounding flangers made (so strange many players who get them think the darned things are broken!).

Of course, it depends on what your needs are - if you are not picky and just want "a distortion", "a flanger", "a plate reverb", "a phase shifter", and as long as it sounds like something performing the assigned tonal task you're happy, then a multi-effect is handy. If you like to finely-tailor you sound to your individual tastes and "hear" very specific sounds, they won't cut it.