Will Multi effects evetually deem stomp boxes obsolete?

[hou35male]

Originally Posted by 4mal

I think it more likely that an interface, a laptop and maybe a power amp will be the rig of the future. It might incorporate stompboxes on the floor along with a multi-function controller. Those stompboxes would provide effects for which there was not a software plug-in style replacement. The controller would alow you to turn on/off or other wise control the various plug in's being hosted.

We're not that far off from that when guys like Pete Anderson are amp farm users...

+1, We are already getting the interfaces coming out of our ying yang, and all the software for reproduction of sound. This is looking like the way the manufactures are going. Wait til we see Brent Mason with a tele, interface, laptop, and power amp.

Not too far off.

RJ

[studio1087]

No.

Where ever there are guitar players there will be old gym bags filled with funky pedals......new pedals and old pedals.....childhood friends and groovy new boutique mods.

I stomp; therefore I am.

[HOBBSTER01]

At the present time they're too complicated.
But in the near future probably so.
I recently purchased a Digitech vocalist live 4 and I'm blown away as to how far harmonizers have come.
Not to mention the few guitar settings are quite good.
This way I can dial in my mix for each song in my song list and all I have to do is play.
Time will certainly tell...In the year 2525.

[play_loud]

I'm glad to see there is a virtually even spread of opinions on this matter. (well... for the most part ) Having said that, there are a few things people aren’t keeping in mind when they are posting.

1) My emphasis with this post was placed on the FUTURE. Some people have been posting stating the relative shortcomings of effects modelling as it is today. I'm not disputing these shortcomings. I am simply stating that "effects modelling is getting better, and more realistic all the time." I am asking you to make predictions about the technology that younger generations will be employing.

2) People have been citing that all "working musicians" use individual stomp boxes. That may be true for the older generation. But the fact of the matter is that most young bands with members my age are utilising effects modelling. I know this first hand.

3) Every type of gear has a short coming in comparison to other types of gear. Even TUBE AMPS have several major disadvantages to solid state amps. Reliability is being cited as a disadvantage for effects modelling. I can cite the same disadvantage for tube amps. winny_pooh , Drop your tube amp down a flight of stairs and get back to me.

In the same way, multi-effects pedals have advantages that individual stomp boxes do not, as pookie 613 states, using multi-effects pedals results in a

"theoretically smaller footprint, less weight, and elimination of wiring spaghetti". Furthermore, over time these advantages may increase dramatically.

4) There will probably always remain minority of "late-adopters" who will use individual stomp boxes. But as OSdave states (tying in with point 3):

"They may never exactly duplicate a tube amp, but it will be so close that the advantages will far outweigh that tiny bit that is missing." This same initiative can be applied to effect modelling.

I know alot of the older patrons of this forum will continue to use individual stomp boxes. I'm not trying to convert anyone. In fact I will too always use both multi-effects and stomp boxes... But what about the generation after me?

I will use a very relevant analogy. My own mother cannot operate a computer by herself, or read an SMS off her mobile phone. In the same way, the older generations may spend hours tinkering away with multi-effects pedals and achieve the same end result that would take a more technologically-literate younger person such as myself considerably less time. We were born and raised in an increasingly digital world.

5) ABOVE ALL... I do not wish in any sense to offend anyone. I myself am both a supporter and user of both stomp boxes and multi-effects processing. I will continue to combine the BEST of both worlds, until advances in technology in one type significantly out way the use of the other. Perhaps multi-effects processing could bite the dust... It is just as likely to go the other way.



And thank you everybody for the responses so far, this has proved for a very engaging discussion.

Cheers!

Chris.

[Jenix]

you won't catch me switching to multi fx

[hopdybob]

i think that stompboxes will not go away but maybe multi fx will grow more.
it has to do for what you can ore must use it with.
in my case i only play by headphone sometimes along with music that comes in from the aux in on the multi fx device.

it keeps peace with the one's who live next door.

further you get a notion about what effect creates what in a sound without first buying them all an regret the devices you afterwards don't need

so for me it works out great and stompboxes would not
by the way, i use a gnx3

[varakeef]

Whenever there's guitarist like me that don't want 7 effects in front of their amps, there'll be room for stompboxes.

[outlier]

Not a chance.

[IronJoe]

Good discussion here. I appreciate play_loud's point of view, but careful not to turn this into a young-guy vs old-guy thing. Getting the tone you want at the price you want has nothing to do with age.

Here's my contribution to the "what-if" game...

What if:
You had a multi-fx box with isolated hardware and hard-bypasses for each effect. You could have half a dozen "pedals" each with their own ROM, DSP and individual switch. Any "pedal" could be hard-bypassed if something goes haywire. I think that would be cool.

What if:
The language that is used to program effects was open-source. You could write your own sci-fi space sounds, download your favorite artists OD from iTunes, and load them up on your multi. You wouldn't have conversations about "this multi units sound bad." You could improve it with better software.

Yeah, there's some cool potential out there.

[Middleman]

Taking that first "What If" and expanding the idea.

What if there was an industry standard interface bus on pedals and pedal boards and you could mix and match your pedals on a board with no wires in between i.e. the pedal board would become just a large buss system. What if that buss system had wireless capability so that there were no wires running from your pedals to the amp.

What if there were more drummers and bass players so all the excess of guitar players had somebody to start a band with. I digress.

[popthree]

for the same reason we still have real orchastras with real strings & horns, I say no.

[ibobunot]

Originally Posted by IronJoe

What if:
The language that is used to program effects was open-source. You could write your own sci-fi space sounds, download your favorite artists OD from iTunes, and load them up on your multi. You wouldn't have conversations about "this multi units sound bad." You could improve it with better software.

The OpenStomp™ Coyote-1 is an open source audio effects processor built for guitar players. With the Coyote-1 users can develop custom audio effects in software (like distortion, echo, chorus etc.), mix multiple effects to build “patches”, and exchange those effects and patches with the OpenStomp™ community.

--AMZ-FX--

http://www.openstomp.com/

[pookie613]

Originally Posted by Middleman

Taking that first "What If" and expanding the idea.

What if there was an industry standard interface bus on pedals and pedal boards and you could mix and match your pedals on a board with no wires in between i.e. the pedal board would become just a large buss system. What if that buss system had wireless capability so that there were no wires running from your pedals to the amp.

What if there were more drummers and bass players so all the excess of guitar players had somebody to start a band with. I digress.

I thought that Line 6's ToneCore modules had the potential for mix & match usage, but they haven't released a multi-fx cradle. I'm not sure they could though, since the units are notorious for having prima donna power requirements. Standardization would be nice, IMO. Personally, I don't like stompboxes that take up too much floorspace for their functionality, or require special power supplies; my Rotosphere stays on a shelf gathering dust.

+1 on the drummers & bass players...

-Jim

[play_loud]

Originally Posted by IronJoe

Good discussion here. I appreciate play_loud's point of view, but careful not to turn this into a young-guy vs old-guy thing. Getting the tone you want at the price you want has nothing to do with age.

Sorry, that wasnt my intention at all. Im just trying to show how old technology gets phased out over generations in time. I do think the the analogy I made is relevant (to an extent of course) for guitar players.

I'm just trying to imagine Les Paul operating tone port... Does he even know what a new-fangled device like a computer is?

If im poking fun at the oldies, i'm doing it with the utmost of respect and admiration, for I am truly grateful for all those who have come before me! Those with an infinite wisdom, and those, such as Les Paul, who I strive to become.

On a side note, some very brilliant "what ifs" are being raised so lets continue to play this game!

Oh... and I hope I do not get shot at for mentioning he who must not be named here in this sacred land of tele-dom!

[djh01]

This is like asking if we will ever stop using tube amps.

I have a Line6 POD XT and never had a stompbox of my own. I plugged in a Bluesbreaker (original, not chinese) the other day and it felt like I had just gotten out of prison and seen the sunlight for the first time in years.

[vjf1968]

Oops. Sorry

[vjf1968]

Originally Posted by IronJoe

Good discussion here. I appreciate play_loud's point of view, but careful not to turn this into a young-guy vs old-guy thing. Getting the tone you want at the price you want has nothing to do with age.

Here's my contribution to the "what-if" game...

What if:
You had a multi-fx box with isolated hardware and hard-bypasses for each effect. You could have half a dozen "pedals" each with their own ROM, DSP and individual switch. Any "pedal" could be hard-bypassed if something goes haywire. I think that would be cool.

What if:
The language that is used to program effects was open-source. You could write your own sci-fi space sounds, download your favorite artists OD from iTunes, and load them up on your multi. You wouldn't have conversations about "this multi units sound bad." You could improve it with better software.

Yeah, there's some cool potential out there.

Well the Tone Core and Tone Port Online pretty much as already achieved what you have suggested . Maybe not to everybody's expectations but its there.

[vjf1968]

Originally Posted by play_loud

Sorry, that wasnt my intention at all. Im just trying to show how old technology gets phased out over generations in time. I do think the the analogy I made is relevant (to an extent of course) for guitar players.

I'm just trying to imagine Les Paul operating tone port... Does he even know what a new-fangled device like a computer is?

If im poking fun at the oldies, i'm doing it with the utmost of respect and admiration, for I am truly grateful for all those who have come before me! Those with an infinite wisdom, and those, such as Les Paul, who I strive to become.

On a side note, some very brilliant "what ifs" are being raised so lets continue to play this game!

Oh... and I hope I do not get shot at for mentioning he who must not be named here in this sacred land of tele-dom!

Actually Les Paul uses Boss pedals when he plays live. There is an article about him in this month Fretboard Journal.

[sax4blues]

Originally Posted by play_loud

Im just trying to show how old technology gets phased out over generations in time.

The single pedal / multi question is not so much a technology question as it is a packaging issue. There are individual pedals that are built on latest technology. So even if every effect was magically replaced with digital/COSM/modeling/sampled/whatever...., there will still be pedal boards with individual pedals.

There are many other areas of our lives that technology was going to replace individual items with do it all solutions (swiss army knife, computer, iPhone, wok), yet I'm not sure we can identify one single area that individual components have been phased out or replaced by technology with do it all solutions.

[guit30]

Tube amps almost were obselete in the 70's, I remember using an Ampeg 40 watt and an original Crybaby. now, almost every amp company features tube amps.
On the other hand, could you imagine analog man modding a me50
J

[ibobunot]

Originally Posted by vjf1968

Well the Tone Core and Tone Port Online pretty much as already achieved what you have suggested . Maybe not to everybody's expectations but its there.

The OpenStomp Coyote-1 is an open source audio effects processor built for guitar players



http://www.openstomp.com/

[11 Gauge]

I can already see boutique pedals sort of struggling to keep up, IMO.

Most of the big names have gone to using chips from headphone amps, hi fi equipment, what have you, epitaxial diodes for clipping, mosfets for distortion, inductors for tuning frequencies...

Fuller had to drop the '69 because he ran out of a decent stash of germanium trannies. Other tweakers have mentioned that bucket brigade analog delay chips are also dwindling in supply...

I'm sure that you'll always have some boutique setup that drops in a new chip/diodes/inductor/etc. or goes to a radically different type of caps or resistors.

I liken indie stomps to cruiser bikes - folks tend to like it low tech - carbureted, air cooled, chain driven, and sometimes even hard tailed...

Multi's seem to be for the Kaw Ninja/Ducati/BMW bike crowd - F.I., water cooled, electronic ignition, etc. - these folks embrace new twists...

I just took apart a Bad Monkey the other night, and it's MIA, by a robot! SMD construction. As more and more indie stompers go this route, we could see a wedge between the boutiques and the mass produced stuff. When Boss finally jumps ship for SMD (some of their peds already have it), that could be a signal...

The laptop thing could be what does it, IMO. I just got the latest release of ReValver, and it's very very very easy to tweak everything, save it, and dial it up. If it's a matter of it going down, I'm sure we'll probably see "redundancy" much like folks who always have a spare amp on standby.

I'd love to say with faith that indie boxes will always be around, but it depends on how you want to define "always."

[e-merlin]

Stompboxes are cheaper and easier to use, but they are also less versatile and noisier than multi-effects units for the most part.

A well-tweaked multi is just as easy to use, but it does take time to set up.

I'm mostly a guitar>cable>amp guy, but I might use a compressor. And, I've owned two multis. I have a Peavey TubeFex, which is far from state-of-the-art, but it's got great effects and lots of features you won't find in stomps. I wouldn't do a Wet/Dry/Wet setup with stomps, but I love my TubeFex for that sort of thing.

Now, if I could only find a three-channel 5-watt power amp...

[Yutaka]

People always created music with "whatever works" mind set, so it will happen eventually to a certain extent, I suppose. I gotta say, though, this practicality of a small do-it-all box - that's sooo Japanese. Why would you want that?

I think the big part of the development in sound of electric guitar came from accidents/misuse/abuse of equipment. Digital modelling and such are aimed to 'freeze' the piece of history, on the other hand. Considering how people are conservative with music these days, I'd hate the thought of more boring future where we find no more accidents.

[Nick JD]

Originally Posted by ibobunot

Me likey! Cheers Bob.

[studio1087]

The hang-up for me with multi effects always comes down to one sound that I cannot tweak from the multi effects box. I have yet to hear a multi effects box that gives the compression that I want. I have the sound of my old compressor in my head and I cannot dial the old sound from the new multi effects unit. This may be a multi effects barrier for the old farts in the crowd.

I love the concept of multi effects but the units always fall flat when I use them. I find that I have to settle for something that is just "ok" but not what I really want to hear.

I saw this in the new Sweetwater book that just came out and it really got my attention.........



Line 6 M13 - $499 Link

I looked at it and thought of the custom made unit that Andy Summers is using on the 2008 Police tour. Some day someone will get everything just right in one box but for now, I don't want to settle for multi effects that are barely ok.

John

[e-merlin]

And it all depends on the sound you're going for.

If you use a lot of effects together, a multi is great. It really doesn't matter how hi-fi each individual effect sounds because they all get mashed together.

On the other hand, if you only use an OD or distortion, a delay, and a reverb, or a couple of things together, you really need something that is hi-fi, and multis aren't there yet.

I'm really interested in Peavey's Vyper stuff because they've really been putting a lot into the digital end over the last few years. John Ferra did the final tweaks on Peavey's outgoing Fex series stuff years ago, and he's been working on the new stuff as well. He's been pretty good about keeping the guitar player in mind even though he's from the digital side of things.

If their ReValver software thing is any indication of what they can do in digital, and the Vyper effects become available as a multi-effects unit, I think it will change a lot of minds when it comes to an all-in-one solution. At least it will make one heckofa toy.

[franchelB]

Originally Posted by Flat357

Care for a bit of both ?



Anyone tried the Spider valves ?
Apparantly Reinhold Bogner is the secret weapon .

And I'm seriously NOT impressed with the effects section. Maybe if Line 6 just kept Bogner's contribution, kept it to a 2 or 3-channel amp with reverb and an effects loop, then I might be tempted to look at Line 6 amps again!

[franchelB]

If I do considering getting a "multi" it would have to be this:

http://guitars.musiciansfriend.com/p...RWXYB&ZYXSEM=0

[Montana_Dawg]

In the future (maybe not so distant), DSP multi-effects will replace stomp boxes.

The reason is simple: cost. Many companies already have reduced making through-hole components. Instead they are relying totally on surface mount technology. Embedded systems are becoming more and more the norm.

What used to take a big box to stuff parts into, now only takes a small printed circuit board. Emulation technology can already faithfully reproduce the signal and nuances of a TS-808. Right down to the bare nuts and bolts. However, the cost of this technology is still very prohibitive.

In a few years, the cost will come down, and it will make it very viable for manufacturers to produce multi-effects units that exceed the stomp boxes.

With all the billions of parts still out there, it will take a long time to get rid of them, and there will always be a market for the small pedals. However, as time goes by, the cost of those parts will increase dramatically.

In my own opinion, I think technology going forward is a good thing. I would rather look to the future than dwell on the past.

[Stratsrgood]

A few years back I would have said no way, but now I'm not so sure. As I only play at home (about 95% of the time) I find that I use a pedal for simplicity but am now willing to spend time tweaking my multi to achieve the sound I want.
I dont know how that would work at gigs though, as has been mentioned already.

[TheBear]

I seriously doubt it. People like to collect pedals like baseball cards or something. I've never had much use for any of them.

[vjf1968]

One of the problems with any new technology is trying to keep up with every new development. Most people who are set in their ways are not going to be as welcoming to new stuff as much younger people. Like I said before in an earlier post the analog effect market will probably be handled by smaller boutique companies and larger corporations like Boss will move onto digital effects exclusively which may or may not be a good thing . Let’s face it; there really has been no new innovation in the analog stomp box market. Either you have another 808 clone or another Fuzz box, or another modulation effect but nothing really new, just a different twist on an old circuit. With digital modeling we are seeing true innovation and where it leads us is the great mystery. I doubt that pedals will go the way of the dinosaur but as supplies dry up and more stringent environmental laws come into play you are going to be paying through the nose for that pedal.

[manfesto]

I was at a bar on st. Patty's day, and there was a one man band that really impressed me.

His setup was a looping station with drum and bass tracks, a tele through a PodXT, and a mic - all straight into the PA.

And he rocked the house, of course. I thought his guitar tone was passable and his backing tracks were prerecorded.

Prior to that night, I'd always considered multi-effects units toys for playing around with and nothing a serious, gigging musician would use. And yet, here was a gigging professional who thought enough of his PodXT's sound to not even bother with an amp.

I am a multi-pedal person and will continue to be because even if a multi-effect pedal came out that had 99 different models, I'd be scared I'd want the one tone it doesn't give (to make it anecdotal, I love my Line 6 DL-4, but I still have my Boss DD-3 on the board because I like how it self oscillates), but I can see multi-effects pedals win for people like the bar performer I mentioned, and for other pragmatists looking for less wasted space and/or more effects per dollar. I know not which group will be larger in the near future, but I myself will continue to indulge :)

Also a thought - where do multi-modeling pedals like my DL-4 and Digitech's Distortion Factory pedal fall in this debate? Multi-effect pedal or stomp box? Super specialized Multi in stompbox house? They model, but only a narrow field for a directed purpose.

[bobthecanadian]

No.

[bowlfreshener]

No, because I have never found a multi effect where all the effects were decent. To me, Multi-effect units are like Swiss army knives. You end up carrying a bunch of stuff you don't use most of the time, and then while Swiss Army knives are helpful to have in an emergency, just because it has a saw, screwdrivers, cutters, and other tools, doesn't mean I can get rid of my toolbox anytime soon...

[surfoverb]

Nope. Give me a fuzz pedal and I'm good to go.

[Gilamnstr]

Obsolete as in fade out of use? No. There will always be purists who will insist on 100% analog, true-bypass, hand-wired "old school" pedals.....just as there are amp purists who turn up their nose at anything that isn't 100% hand-built, PTP, with vintage wire and capacitors, NOS tubes and cabs made of aged tonewood. For those people, nothing else will ever be good enough and "digital", "solid state" or "PCB" will always be dirty words.

But (at least IMO), as the multis get better, there will be plenty of people who will find them to be "good enough".

[Big Mike Simpson]

A year ot two ago all my pedals were stolen en route to a gig... I bought a Boss ME50 because I liked the "pedal like" controls and it had the Boss name on it. Ultimately it is still too complicated to use. Very few of the presets were usable for me and it is time consuming to save my own presets... then where is that preset I thought was on bank 2? Another big problem with the ME50 is that you have to buy a seperate switch pedal (FS?) or bend down and change banks with a button that can only be operated by a finger. It was fun playing with all the sounds... many are useless... who uses a ring modulator anyway??... enough for it to be included

I tried to use the ME50 but ended up buying the pedals again.

The problem with multi effects is as much the interface and adjustability as it is the sound quality. Both have to be useable. They are just not very user friendly.

[octatonic]

I use a combination of both- although for live work it is almost always stomp boxes.
Processors (rack or floor mounted) require too much programming, and forethought- plus the chance of something going wrong mid gig is relatively high.

I've recently had a midi foot controller (Ground Control) reset itself all of a sudden- taking with it all my presets.
It was in the studio so I just had to spend 1/2 a day re-doing them, but this simply cannot happen at a gig.

Worst case scenario with stomps is a pedal stops working.
You can usually work around that in the moment.

What is really irritating about multifx boxes is they usually do not allow more than one effect type at once.
For instance, my pedalboard has 2-3 delays on it.
A Maxon AD9 for analog tones, a Boss DD7 for longer delays and sometimes a line 6 DL4 for reverse delays.
Chaining 3 delays together can give some really interesting tones- The AD9 and DD7 together give me a very complex rhythm not easily reproduced with a single device.

The Digitech Quad 4 is one notable exception to this- I use it all the time for space-rock sounds.

Most Multifx boxes only allow one delay (or chorus or flange).
Ultimately I find this rather limiting.