Overdrive for Nocaster + Deluxe Reverb @ lower volumes?

[iim7v7im7]

Hi,

I own a Allen Accomplice (Deluxe Reverb Clone with Master Volume) and a CS Nocaster. I am a home hobbiest player who plays 90% at home at low volumes (<3 on the volume control) and 10% with some friends at louder volumes.

I currently own two fine OD pedals: Maxon OD-9 Analogman Silver (Stevie Ray tones) and a Jettergear Gain Stage Red (Carlton and Ford tones). At louder volumes both pedals are transparent to the amp and are response to pick attack. At lower volumes, they sound OK, but you can tell that it is a "pedal" sound.


What I am looking for may be just beyond physics. At lower playing volumes something that sounds organic (like the natural overdriven amp at high volume), harmonically rich and is sensitive to pick attack.

What OD pedals come to mind for bluesy tones with a Nocaster driving a Deluxe Reverb (6V6) circuit Amp?

Thanks,

Bob

[hamish5178]

OCD?

[Axis29]

Originally Posted by hamish5178

OCD?

+1

Or maybe a good Germanium Fuzz... Analogman Sunface, Fulltone 69... something like that.

I like my OCD, and I like my Fulltone 70 pedal. They both work decently at lower volumes, but the Silicon fuzz likes a little breakup on the amp. the germanium fuzz might like the breakup too. I find the fuzz cleans up better than any overdrive pedal I've tried with less pick attack or guitar volume.

The other option is a Weber Mass. I keep mine on my amp all the time and use it as a master volume (after the power tubes). Works pretty good, and gets a good tube saturation.

[TeleBrew]

I'm in pretty much the same situation as you, Bob, although I play with friends a little more like 20% of the time.

Anyway, I recently got a Catlinbread Hyper Pak, and love it. Unlike many distortion/fuzz/OD pedals, it actually sounds better w/a clean amp setting, say with the volume turned to around two and the master at six or seven, than it does with the volume cranked and the master turned down.

It's really simple, just drive and volume knobs, it cleans up really well with the guitar's volume knob, and it doesn't cost a mint.

[WrapAround]

Or you could get an attenuator and balance amp volume/OD level/OD gain to get desired sounds. :)

[usc96]

There's a little company called Lovepedal that has all sorts of pedals (I suspect many are very similar). You can find them on the internet, but I've been very pleased with their Cot-50 pedal. New it's probably around $200 or so.

I also have some pricier OD and distortion type pedals, but they are not real bedroom friendly.

[iim7v7im7]

To All,

Thanks for all of your suggestions.

Fulltone - OCD (OD), 69 and 70 ( I thought the 69 and 70 were distortion pedals not OD?)

Analogman Sunface (Again isn't this a distotion pedal as well?)

Catlinbread - Hyperpack (OD)

Attenuator between the power amp out and the speaker

If others have other suggestions

I have never really been into distortion pedals, but maybe they have improved. I have always been into straight amp sounds. Lately I have been trying OD pedals to drive the amp over the edge.

Thanks again. If others have other suggestions, please chime in.

:-)

Bob

[Stewart Ward]

Originally Posted by iim7v7im7

Hi,

I own a Allen Accomplice (Deluxe Reverb Clone with Master Volume) and a CS Nocaster. I am a home hobbiest player who plays 90% at home at low volumes (<3 on the volume control) and 10% with some friends at louder volumes.

I currently own two fine OD pedals: Maxon OD-9 Analogman Silver (Stevie Ray tones) and a Jettergear Gain Stage Red (Carlton and Ford tones). At louder volumes both pedals are transparent to the amp and are response to pick attack. At lower volumes, they sound OK, but you can tell that it is a "pedal" sound.


What I am looking for may be just beyond physics. At lower playing volumes something that sounds organic (like the natural overdriven amp at high volume), harmonically rich and is sensitive to pick attack.

What OD pedals come to mind for bluesy tones with a Nocaster driving a Deluxe Reverb (6V6) circuit Amp?

Thanks,

Bob

Hiya,

As a person who works with guitar amps every day, I've seen this comment a zillion times!

There are some basic reasons for this which cannot be overcome. Firstly, the human hearing is very mids orientated at low volumes. The bass response is down by as much as 85dB compared to the frequencies your hearing are most sensitive to.... that's a huge amount! Google 'Fletcher and Munson' for a deep explanation on this. Those guys worked all this stuff out back in 1933 and has been the basis of audio engineering ever since.

So, as you increase the volume, the human hearing begins to flatten out... and is equally sensitive to all frequencies at about 120dB of sound volume. That's about the time it starts to hurt your ears!

This is the reason why, when we hear a favourite record on the radio, we turn up the volume. Because it sounds better! All you are doing is altering your hearing response to hear more bass by increasing the volume. Guitar amps (or any amps) don't really change their tone when played louder, except for increased distortion maybe. You are just fooling your brain into thinking it's changing for the better.

When you take away bass from an overdriven guitar sound, then it can sound very grainy and empty.

Also, and this is very important, when playing at low volumes, you tend to pick with heavier pressure. The causes the note to go into deeper distrortion than it would when played at a louder volume. This means you lose that 'on-the-edge' sound you so desire.

What you have to do is this. Set the amp master volume to be louder - just too loud! Then set up your distortion sound as required, but use pick pressure to control the distortion amount. Playing too loud automatically causes you to pluck the string more softly... thus giving the sound much more 'touch sentitivity' that when playing your amp too quietly! This is how the 'old timers' used to control their sound with non-master volume amps like the early Fenders and Marshalls! Geddit?

Hope this is of help.


Stew.

[iim7v7im7]

Stew,

Thanks for your thoughts. If I understand you correctly set up the master so its loud (e.g. say at 6-8 setting) and turn up the volume (say 6-8) until a hard pick attack is over the edge and a light touch is clean.

I have always done this. I was just hoping there were OD pedals that could accomplish the dynamics and organic sound at lower volumes (say master at 10) and the volume at (2-3). The OD9 and the GSR sound pretty good here, but they sound outrageous at band playing volumes >5 on the volume.

I was just wondering if there where other pedal designs that can push the amp differently than the two that I use.

Thanks Again,

Bob

[hamish5178]

I wouldn't recommend the SunFace at low volumes, I find that if my amp is around two or three it sounds fizzy and synthetic, for me at least the sunface doesn't sound good until you also have a little breakup from your amp.

[zeeman]

Thanks for the info Stew. Maybe that's why my 5e3 sounds so good at low volumes. It has a pretty hefty bass response.

With my amp I have found the combination of a sparkle drive and a boss 0D-3 to be incredible. OD-3 is somewhat of a mild Marshal type sound and the sparkle drive is ts808 with the ability to mix in the clean signal. Both are great on their own. If you hit the OD-3 with the sparkle drive it seems to put you into a bit of Dumble territory. It's worked out great for me and both pedals seem very transparent, are readily available, and relatively cheap. (i.e. not Boutique) YMMV.

[Stewart Ward]

Originally Posted by iim7v7im7

Stew,

Thanks for your thoughts. If I understand you correctly set up the master so its loud (e.g. say at 6-8 setting) and turn up the volume (say 6-8) until a hard pick attack is over the edge and a light touch is clean.

I have always done this. I was just hoping there were OD pedals that could accomplish the dynamics and organic sound at lower volumes (say master at 10) and the volume at (2-3). The OD9 and the GSR sound pretty good here, but they sound outrageous at band playing volumes >5 on the volume.

I was just wondering if there where other pedal designs that can push the amp differently than the two that I use.

Thanks Again,

Bob

You need to appreciate that it's large 'sound pressure level' that creates the tone you like... not the valves, the guitar or the type of OD you're using. You really have to have louder volume to get that brain/hearing working right. Pushing the amp differently with various pedals at low volume is not making the amp louder, which is what HAS to happen!

There is just no other way around this. Sorry!


Stew

[Stewart Ward]

[quote=zeeman;1287597]
Thanks for the info Stew. Maybe that's why my 5e3 sounds so good at low volumes. It has a pretty hefty bass response.
QUOTE]

Well yes, that's why many hifi amps have a 'loudness' button. It jacks up the bass to compensate for your hearing's poor bass response at low volume.

If and amp sound whimpish at low volume, and it has an effects loop, then stick a Graphic EQ in the loop and raise the lower frequencies by 12dB... this will certainly help!


Stew

[Bopcat]

What works for me is to use a Bad Bob Booster and set it to 11 or 12 o'clock. I set my Tele volume at 7 or 8 and then start with my amp volume at zero (all my amps are non master volume amps). I then slowly turn up the amp to a comfortable volume - with a more powerful amp I may not get much past 1. Doing this hits the preamp tube really hard which can give that edge of breakup sound. It's not the same as working the power tubes hard but it works okay for low volume, family at home stuff.

[Wardpike]

Originally Posted by WrapAround

Or you could get an attenuator and balance amp volume/OD level/OD gain to get desired sounds. :)

+1

[Axis29]

Originally Posted by iim7v7im7

To All,

Thanks for all of your suggestions.

Fulltone - OCD (OD), 69 and 70 ( I thought the 69 and 70 were distortion pedals not OD?)

Analogman Sunface (Again isn't this a distotion pedal as well?)

69, 70 and analogman are Fuzz pedals. Distortion pedals I think of something separate (see more below). But, maybe I'm over complicating things?

Yes, the OCD is an overdrive pedal, but has more grit on tap than most I've tried. So, it works well at lower volumes for sounding more like you're driving your tubes. It also colors the tone of my guitar signal less than any others I've tried. Which pushes the preamp tubes at a lower volume.

You can use it as a clean boost as well. But by lowering the gain and the volume so that it doesn't make it louder, than it can act as a nice overdriven sound with an amp at lower volumes.

Originally Posted by iim7v7im7

Catlinbread - Hyperpack (OD)

Attenuator between the power amp out and the speaker

I think this really is what you're looking for. This is probably the way I play the majority of time these days. It allows me to push the amp into total overdrive without pushing my ears into bleeding! See more notes below.

Originally Posted by iim7v7im7

If others have other suggestions

I have never really been into distortion pedals, but maybe they have improved. I have always been into straight amp sounds. Lately I have been trying OD pedals to drive the amp over the edge.

Thanks again. If others have other suggestions, please chime in.

:-)

Bob

I am actually not a fan of distortion pedals in general. I own a Metal Zone, but use it more as a joke than anything else. It certainly doesn't sit on my pedal board. It's like a toy to me. I pull it out every once and a while and get a good laugh out of the thrashing sounds... for maybe ten minutes, then I put it away again for a long time.

I also do not push the limits of overdrive/distortion much when creating my own music, but when doing cover stuff, you kinda need something sometimes.

I use my Fuzz to get that Jimi Hendrix sound.. which really is rather distorted beyond what tubes normally would sound like. But it drives the tube when you heat them up good. Say having your amp volume on 5 or 6 +, then push into it with the fuzz and you get a very rich harmonic grungy Hendrix sound, turn back the volume on the guitar and it cleans up very nicely! I don't think of distortion pedals as cleaning up with lowered input. I think of them as just always fuzzing and distorted.

To gain true tube overdrive sounds you must overdrive the tubes. Period. You may push the tubes quicker with overdrive pedals, but to get that true rich harmonic toneful tube drive, you must push tubes. This creates volume.

To overcome the volume=overdrive formula, you must add the attenuator variable. My weber minmass with my DRRI is a good combination for practice. I can drive the amp into total saturation and then control the volume with the attenuator.

I used to own a Mesa Mark IV which is a master volume amp. I never drove the tubes into saturation... sure I got preamp tube overdrive, but it's not the same. By placing the ultimate volume control AFTER the power tubes, you get that overdriven sound we all chase.

So if you really want tube overdrive at low volumes... buy an attenuator. simple and not that expensive.

[Stewart Ward]

Originally Posted by Axis29

To gain true tube overdrive sounds you must overdrive the tubes. Period. You may push the tubes quicker with overdrive pedals, but to get that true rich harmonic toneful tube drive, you must push tubes. This creates volume.

To overcome the volume=overdrive formula, you must add the attenuator variable. My weber minmass with my DRRI is a good combination for practice. I can drive the amp into total saturation and then control the volume with the attenuator.

I used to own a Mesa Mark IV which is a master volume amp. I never drove the tubes into saturation... sure I got preamp tube overdrive, but it's not the same. By placing the ultimate volume control AFTER the power tubes, you get that overdriven sound we all chase.

So if you really want tube overdrive at low volumes... buy an attenuator. simple and not that expensive.

Hi,

Attenuators are often good for what you're suggesting. However, the real 'tube' sound (if there is one in this case) comes from the way that the speaker interacts with the O/P transformer... regardless of what technology is driving the transformer.

The high impedance of the O/P transformer secondary... the winding that's connected to the speaker(s)... allows the speaker to mechanically add harmonics to the sound, that are not in the original signal on the 'valve side' of the O/P TX. These harmonics are related to volume and frequency, so change with any combination of those factors. The speaker's design geometry, cone and magnet all play a part in this too. Change any of those and the sound will change accordingly. It's the 'art' of designing a guitar speaker!

Because the speaker is also a 'generator', the fact that it being driven by a current naturally means that the cone motion causes the speaker generate currents too. These currents vary with frequency and the amount of current driving the speaker from the amp output. These speaker generated currents are reflected back into the O/P TX and can add or subtract from the signal delivered by the amp. So you can hopefully begin to see that the realationship between these two components is both vital to the final sound you here and extremely complicated.

Furthermore, this relationship does not only change according to the type and design of the speaker, but the design of the speaker cabinet as well. The cabinet is a 'load' on the speaker. Just putting a back on a cab raises the resonance of the speaker to open A (5th string) from open E (6th string). Not only this, the design of the cabinet causes the speaker to generate different harmonic distortions at a range of frequencies which can vary enormously in amplitude too.

Perhaps, when I say that interupting the signal path with a power break or other power attenuator, you can realise that this unique and essential realationship is destroyed. Plus you are putting huge strains on the output valves, power supply components and O/P TX!

As a designer with 40 years under my belt, I would be inclined to say that having two amps and an A/B box is the best way to get a great stage sound. One amp chosen with an output power that'll deliver 'that' sound you want for soloing at the right volume; and another with higher power for the 'must have' clean tones. And then just alternate between them. You can't do it with just one amp, sadly!

That speaker/TX interaction is sooooo required for 'that' tone. IMHO. My choice is, to buy a good O/D pedal and make full use of the speaker/TX relationship.

Incidently, modern SS guitar power amps are now able to do this as well, so they have changed hugely over the last few years. Most current SS amps are able to provide that 'tearing' edge to the distortion sound which is actually contributed by the speakers... not the amp! But only if connected as described earlier.

Hope this is clear as mud and helps!


Stew

[Stewart Ward]

Originally Posted by Bopcat

What works for me is to use a Bad Bob Booster and set it to 11 or 12 o'clock. I set my Tele volume at 7 or 8 and then start with my amp volume at zero (all my amps are non master volume amps). I then slowly turn up the amp to a comfortable volume - with a more powerful amp I may not get much past 1. Doing this hits the preamp tube really hard which can give that edge of breakup sound. It's not the same as working the power tubes hard but it works okay for low volume, family at home stuff.

Yes, that's all a modern master volume amp is doing anyway. It has that 'Bad Bob' circuit already built in - not exactly, but in principle. That's why those MV amps came about... because of people doing what you do.

Hey, you're about 40 years behind the times!!

Have fun!

Stew

[Axis29]

Originally Posted by Stewart Ward

Hi,

Attenuators are often good for what you're suggesting. However, the real 'tube' sound (if there is one in this case) comes from the way that the speaker interacts with the O/P transformer... regardless of what technology is driving the transformer.

[snipped a tad]

As a designer with 40 years under my belt, I would be inclined to say that having two amps and an A/B box is the best way to get a great stage sound. One amp chosen with an output power that'll deliver 'that' sound you want for soloing at the right volume; and another with higher power for the 'must have' clean tones. And then just alternate between them. You can't do it with just one amp, sadly!

That speaker/TX interaction is sooooo required for 'that' tone. IMHO. My choice is, to buy a good O/D pedal and make full use of the speaker/TX relationship.

[snipped again]


Stew

Stew I ain't gonna argue with a single thing you said. I agree 100%. But the OP was asking about overdriven sounds at lower volumes. Lower volumes being the key to the attenuator solution I proposed.

[Stewart Ward]

Originally Posted by Axis29

Stew I ain't gonna argue with a single thing you said. I agree 100%. But the OP was asking about overdriven sounds at lower volumes. Lower volumes being the key to the attenuator solution I proposed.

Hi again,

I agree entirely and you were absolutely right to point that out. But, I just wanted to make it clear that the OP would not get the sound that he got at high volumes. Because our language is so imprecise, it can be fifficult to know where to draw the lines!

I hope this explains my reason for the waffle!!


Stew

[Tiki]

I'm not arguing with Stewart either.

It depends on how critical the OP is comparing the loud volume vs the bedroom volume. Certain attenuators work better than others. I use a THD Hot Plate which is OK for a while but when you reduce the volume too much, it loses a lot of tone for whatever reason.

If I were looking into buying an attenuator, I'd buy an Ultimate Attenuator.

Another possibility is Power Scaling. PS still takes the speaker out of the loop but from what I've read and seen on YouTube, some amp builders are getting wonderful results with power scaling.