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Old January 26th, 2013, 06:46 PM   #1 (permalink)
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1951 Champ Voicing vs Champ 600

I bet that a lot of you have seen this video already.



My personal take:
The 1951 original sounds great to my ears.
The mercury mag modded sounds way too modern for my tastes.
The new stock champ 600 doesn't sound bad but very different from original.

I see 5E1, 5F1 thrown around for voicing mods. Which of those would be closest to his 1951 Champion 600?

Also, where do you think the biggest differences in tone are? I imagine its a combination of many different things. Could you add to this list and/or put in order of significance?

1951 vs New Champ 600:

1)Tube Rectified vs ?Is it SS Rectified? (please excuse my electronics ignorance)

2)Old Broken In Alnico Speaker (Smooth Coned?) vs New Ceramic

3)Cap and Resistor differences

The mercury modded could not sound further from the original. What I am hearing in the original, is warm, smokey, and smooth if that makes sense. Can the new Champ do that with mods?

Thanks

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Old January 26th, 2013, 07:19 PM   #2 (permalink)
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Is Tube Rectifier "sag" possibly the biggest difference I am hearing?
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Old January 26th, 2013, 07:48 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RatherBeFishing View Post
I bet that a lot of you have seen this video already.

My personal take:
The 1951 original sounds great to my ears.
The mercury mag modded sounds way too modern for my tastes.
The new stock champ 600 doesn't sound bad but very different from original.

I see 5E1, 5F1 thrown around for voicing mods. Which of those would be closest to his 1951 Champion 600?
Oh, goody! A fun challenge.

My philosophy is it's easiest to get the same tone from similar circuits using similar parts.

An original Champion is a very different animal from the later 5F1. Early '50s opposed to late '50s. Same 5Y3, same 6V6. Very different preamp tube. Early '50s Champion uses a 6SJ7 pentode grid leak biased.

Late '50s 5F1 Champ uses a 12AX7 cathode biased.

In general grid leak yields a tough grainy distortion tone without a lot of gain. The downside is it doesn't play well with pedals. It's like an inverse bell curve, though. The other upside is it has a seething distortion tone without pedals.

The lineage is like 5C1 > 5F1 > AA764 ('60s Champ) > new Champ 600.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RatherBeFishing View Post
Also, where do you think the biggest differences in tone are? I imagine its a combination of many different things. Could you add to this list and/or put in order of significance?

1951 vs New Champ 600:
You need to understand the circuit to understand the new Champ 600. The new Champ 600 is like a '60s Champ with the tone knobs knocked off. It uses 12AX7 cathode bias, similar circuit and gain structure to '60s (AA764 circuit) Champ.

A 1951 Champion compared to a new Champ 600 is like a '51 Dodge panel truck compared to a PT Cruiser.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RatherBeFishing View Post
1)Tube Rectified vs ?Is it SS Rectified? (please excuse my electronics ignorance)
In theory Class A amps draw full current all the time so it shouldn't matter. It practice you can tune the supply voltage with rectifier choice which does matter.

A grossly simplified discussion to give you an idea of what's goin' on:

Solid state diodes are generally described as a "hard" power supply. SS yields 1.44x the voltage on either side of the transformer center tap. Technical stuff for those who dig that. Say we have 300v in front of the rectifier. That yields over 420v DC unloaded at the first filter cap. A 5Y3 rectifier supplies more like 1.15x loaded. DC supply voltage is around 360v from the same transformer. Tube rectifier is generally considered a "soft" power supply.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RatherBeFishing View Post
Is Tube Rectifier "sag" possibly the biggest difference I am hearing?
No. They're almost entirely different circuits. The only thing they have in common is a 6V6 tube.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RatherBeFishing View Post
2)Old Broken In Alnico Speaker (Smooth Coned?) vs New Ceramic
The short answer is an ancient alnico speaker is going to sound like an ancient alnico speaker while a new speaker does its new speaker thing. I track down ancient alnico speakers because they do what they do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RatherBeFishing View Post
3)Cap and Resistor differences
Doesn't make as much difference as speaker choice. Circuit design is key. Clone the '51 circuit with new parts, you'll be in the ballpark. My recipe would be new caps, new resistors, old speaker, NOS tubes.

I really don't want to screw around with pre- '55 or so caps and resistors. There isn't enough mojo there to make it worthwhile to deal with parts that are decades past their "sell by" date.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RatherBeFishing View Post
The mercury modded could not sound further from the original. What I am hearing in the original, is warm, smokey, and smooth if that makes sense. Can the new Champ do that with mods?
Sure. Gut it down to a bare chassis and an empty cabinet. Rip out the stock grille cloth because it's an unexpected tone sucker. Toss the stock speaker.

Build it back up with a grid leak biased 6SJ7 tube and a 6" alnico speaker out of an old phonograph.

Pic shows what a real '51 looks like inside. There's not a lot in there.
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Old January 26th, 2013, 09:45 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Wow, great response! There is so much good info to eat up here and I'm hungry. I will certainly be coming back for seconds and thirds.

It looks like there is some beautiful simplicity in that old amp.

I probably will not gut mine any time soon but I may try the popular Alnicomagnet "5E1" mod and search for a new speaker. I was aware that it was AA764 voiced and firmly believed that was how I wanted to keep it UNTIL I saw this video. I've always thought the vintage obsession was overrated. I still believe it is for a lot of things- but if that video's sound is accurate, there was something terrible that happened a long the way with these little Amps.

I may find a broken down champ and attempt to convert it before mine catches fire or I melt the circuit board from all the mods its gone through.

It actually does quite well for me the way it is as I play clean normally. That smooth distortion with still some high end clarity was soooo nice though. I know very little about pedals and tend to stay away from them, are there any that cost less than a used Champ 600 that could get close to that sound?

Thanks for sharing your knowledge and experience.
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Old January 26th, 2013, 09:51 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Great synopsis by muchxs.

Here's Weber's modern Layout for the 5C1

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Old January 26th, 2013, 10:14 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by RatherBeFishing View Post
Wow, great response! There is so much good info to eat up here and I'm hungry. I will certainly be coming back for seconds and thirds.

It looks like there is some beautiful simplicity in that old amp.

I probably will not gut mine any time soon but I may try the popular Alnicomagnet "5E1" mod and search for a new speaker. I was aware that it was AA764 voiced and firmly believed that was how I wanted to keep it UNTIL I saw this video. I've always thought the vintage obsession was overrated. I still believe it is for a lot of things- but if that video's sound is accurate, there was something terrible that happened a long the way with these little Amps.
There are a few zero buck mods for 600s. The super quick Back To Tweed conversion is as follows:

Locate R19. It's a 15k resistor. Remove it or clip it.

You'll unleash buckets of gain.

Locate C10. It's a 22uf electrolytic capacitor. Remove or clip it.

Your circuit is then a juxtaposition of '50s and '60s Champ. It's a '50s Champ with a '60s negative feedback loop.

Money spent so far:

Zero bucks.

Next, remove the speaker and the speaker baffle. Rip the stock speaker grille out. Either re-assemble it with some new grille, screen, perforated steel... anything sounds better than the stock grille. You could saw the perforated steel bottom out of your microwave and use that for grille.

Money spent so far:

Zero bucks.

Speaker. There's the wild card. You can pick up any number of old alnico speakers on eBay for reasonable money. I'll let you in on a closely guarded secret:

Many of these old speakers were built with the same parts that came out of the same dark smokey factory somewhere in The Rust Belt. Perhaps that accounts for the dark smokey tone. In any case a lot of these little guys used the same or similar frames, the same cones and voice coils and the same magnet assemblies. You may not get exactly the tone you wanted but you'll probably find something cool while you're looking.

You may find some interesting tones by running you little amp into an extension cabinet with a vintage 12" alnico. Almost any old alnico will handle 5 watts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RatherBeFishing View Post
I may find a broken down champ and attempt to convert it before mine catches fire or I melt the circuit board from all the mods its gone through..
I built up a batch of 5C1 cabinets then abandoned the project. I like the 5F1 package better. It doesn't have to be a 5F1 circuit. The cabinets can be scaled to accept bigger speakers. They go 8", 10", 12" then integrate nicely in the lineup with larger tweeds.


TDPRI member Hackworth1 sells "5F1" kits 'n' amps. They can be re- configured to 5C1. He has a completed chassis on eBay.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/130838888315...84.m1423.l2649

Quote:
Originally Posted by RatherBeFishing View Post
It actually does quite well for me the way it is as I play clean normally. That smooth distortion with still some high end clarity was soooo nice though. I know very little about pedals and tend to stay away from them, are there any that cost less than a used Champ 600 that could get close to that sound?
It's difficult to make a pedal act exactly like a cranked tube amp. The the '50s Champs are very touch sensitive and dynamic. They'll do clean to dirty by touch alone.
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Old January 27th, 2013, 01:01 AM   #7 (permalink)
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I just got a wonderful amp over the holidays that does everything I've ever wanted as far as fender cleans go and for live applications.

I feel like I shouldn't even be looking at my other amps but I opened up the champion 600 when an input jack went wonky after a fall. Then I decided to change the tone choking grille cover you mentioned, but I've yet to build up the intestinal fortitude to make a trip to Jo-ann fabric.

Years ago, I picked it up used with some of the mods you mentioned and a Jensen Mod speaker in it. I didn't care for the tone and extra noise at the time so I brought it back close to stock voicing and performed Alnicomagnet's AC to DC Filament Supply Conversion, HT Supply Filter and Voltage Drop, Repositioned of the Output Transformer, Fitted an HT Fuse, Standby Switch and Changed some Caps and resistors.... I never wanted to increase gain or volume too much. Just clean it up for recording purposes.

I hate to undo what I've done so far as I do like it how it is for cleans and some light dirt. I already have the parts and instructions for the Alnicomagnet 5E1 voice mod. With how cheap these are going used- I may just buy another one, find one of those special speakers and try the 5E1 mod on it. If that doesn't do it for me then buy or build a turret board and try to make it just like the old ones.

Do you think that sounds feasible? I'm a little concerned about finding and retrofitting a 5B1 OT replacement. I see 5C1 kits and parts, some mention here and there for 5B1 and no reliable info that 5A1 ever existed.

The Boot Hill amps look great and are VERY modestly priced, but I really like the idea of having a 5B1 with the 3watt and 6" that dirties up nicely at a lower volume.

Tube Amps have really struck my interest at the moment so this looks like the perfect "beginner" build and I have about a month or so of time that I can focus on this.

I really appreciate your info. I've seen a few speakers on ebay recently that fit the I suspect may be in the ballpark. Thanks for the tip!
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Old January 27th, 2013, 09:05 AM   #8 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by RatherBeFishing View Post
I hate to undo what I've done so far as I do like it how it is for cleans and some light dirt. I already have the parts and instructions for the Alnicomagnet 5E1 voice mod. With how cheap these are going used- I may just buy another one, find one of those special speakers and try the 5E1 mod on it. If that doesn't do it for me then buy or build a turret board and try to make it just like the old ones.

Do you think that sounds feasible?
I think you're falling into a common trap.

"There is more than one way to skin a cat" etc. but there seems to be two extremes to the theme:

One theme is the commercial reissue. The plan there is to make a cossmetic copy of the original 'cuz that's what most musicians see. Don't worry about what's insdie because they don't see it and further, most of 'em don't care. When it comes down to it they sure fooled you. Your new amp has one electronic part in common with the 1951 version... that would be the 6V6 tube.

The other theme is the tech nerd version. We don't care what it looks like. It's as if many of us are oblivious to the cosmetics and packaging, that's why we date some funny lookin' chicks. We'll build something on an old phonograph chassis and stuff it in a cabinet whacked together from an old board. We'll say, "Look at my (pick one) 5C1 5F1 5C3 5E3 5F4 5E7 5F6 5F8 etc. and The Nerd Squad totally understands. The only freakin' tweed we need is on a hanger in the closet. It's not what it looks like that makes the tone.

We wouldn't walk around with our shirt tails partially un-tucked and our Buddy Holly replica glasses held together with an old Band-Aid if we cared about appearances.

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Originally Posted by RatherBeFishing View Post
I'm a little concerned about finding and retrofitting a 5B1 OT replacement. I see 5C1 kits and parts, some mention here and there for 5B1 and no reliable info that 5A1 ever existed.
That's unfortunate. "They" have you BS-ed already.

I'll tell you a couple stories 'cuz I tell stories:

A lot of vintage test gear has coarse calibration and fine calibration. Grab the coarse calibration knob, crank it into the zone. Then tweak it until it hits the marks with fine calibration. Grabbing the fine calibration knob first is pointless. You'll run out of range before you get anywhere near where you need to be.

In other words don't concern yourself with getting the absolutely OMG! 100% correct boo-teek clone transformers straight from the get-go. It doesn't matter. It doesn't even make sense. How rational is it to buy a $100 cosmetic copy of a vintage amp then toss $300 worth of transformers in there? That doesn't make sense to me.

Here's why:

The basic amplifier circuit in these little amps was designed as an amplifier for radios and phonographs. It's not as if Fender started with a blank sheet of paper when they designed the first Champion. 2/3 of the circuit is exactly what you'd find in an old phonograph or radio of the era. 1/3 of the circuit is exactly like the audio amp from an old black and white TV. It's "Monkey see, monkey do" engineering. These are not unique circuits built with unique parts. They were designed by thumbing through a tube manual and putting the pieces together. Same amp as an old phonograph, tweak the few parts around the 6SJ7 tube to play nice with Fender's magnetic pickup and hey, presto! We have a guitar amp.

The parts are not unique to Fender. Triad would have gone belly-up if Fender was their only customer. They and companies like them manufactured countless transformers for radios and phonographs. They're not unique parts designed for guitar amps.

I touched on this in a post the other day. The differences if any are minute and subjective. I put it in terms of "suck" and "fantastic". There are people who will happily charge you three times what you should pay then tell you the alternative sucks. They'll tell you adamantly and with a straight face.

It's not black and white or "right" and "wrong" within reason. The power transformer just needs to hit the numbers. If it worked with a 6V6 in a phonograph or old table radio it will work with a 6V6 in a guitar amp. Same with the output transformer. Worked in a phonograph. likely will work in a guitar amp. They're not unique parts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RatherBeFishing View Post
The Boot Hill amps look great and are VERY modestly priced, but I really like the idea of having a 5B1 with the 3watt and 6" that dirties up nicely at a lower volume.
Suit yourself. There are numerous ways to achieve the same results.

I wouldn't get stuck on that 6" speaker. The amp will make the same dirt through an 8" speaker, a 10" speaker, a 12" speaker, combinations of speakers right up to a Marshall 4x12" or even a couple Marshall cabinets. It's an entertaining piece of performance art to stack a tiny little amp on some giant cabinets and rock out.

In terms of "coarse" and "fne" controls i.e. major and minor variables it's the amplifier circuit that shapes the tone.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RatherBeFishing View Post
Tube Amps have really struck my interest at the moment so this looks like the perfect "beginner" build and I have about a month or so of time that I can focus on this.

I really appreciate your info. I've seen a few speakers on ebay recently that fit the I suspect may be in the ballpark. Thanks for the tip!
I've made it my business to buy and try every weird old speaker I can lay my hands on. I found some cool speakers and invented a few creative ways to use them.
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Old January 27th, 2013, 10:10 AM   #9 (permalink)
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This one was "Baby Vader" or "Little Darth". It's a '53 replica covered in black tolex with black hardware. And a rack handle. Cut for a 6"x9" speaker.
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Old January 27th, 2013, 10:36 AM   #10 (permalink)
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Beautiful !
Do you know some modern 6X9 ?
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Old January 27th, 2013, 11:49 AM   #11 (permalink)
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This one was "Baby Vader" or "Little Darth". It's a '53 replica covered in black tolex with black hardware. And a rack handle. Cut for a 6"x9" speaker.
Sweet :)
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Old January 27th, 2013, 12:41 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Beautiful !
Do you know some modern 6X9 ?
I picked up a set the other day out of a 1970s "Smokey and the Bandit" Trans Am. No kiddin'! Yup, Pontiac speakers to go with my Delco 6V6s.

Delco was GM's autosound division.

You're in Europe so things we consider to be mundane are exotic there. We can get into a cargo cult. I'll trade Citroen parts for old speakers.

Seriously, look for the speakers out of old Grundig consoles. They used a giant oval alnico for the center channel. It's different if you dare to be different.
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Old January 27th, 2013, 01:02 PM   #13 (permalink)
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You're in Europe so things we consider to be mundane are exotic there. We can get into a cargo cult. I'll trade Citroen parts for old speakers.
I have some Citroen parts, but i keep them...in my Citroen :)
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Old January 27th, 2013, 01:20 PM   #14 (permalink)
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I have some Citroen parts, but i keep them...in my Citroen :)
I'll take it!!

How many speakers do you want for it?
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Old January 27th, 2013, 01:28 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Mine is not so beautiful, it sleeps outside and it's muddy here (but it's the same model).
AND : i keep it :)
I can be wrong, but if i remember well, you can't have this kind of Citroen because it's considered unsure to have the same circuit controlling (steering wheel ? I'm not sure) brakes etc.
Lobbying leaded to the same kind of laws in Europe, now, Citroen have ****ty electric brakes like all other cars, where the beauty was in simplicity (and the 180 bars on the brakes haha !).
BTW i'm not aware of a single crash due to an hydraulic failure, the priority is always to the brakes, where i'm aware that the modern electric pumps fails very often on the contrary.
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Old January 27th, 2013, 03:53 PM   #16 (permalink)
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I have some Citroen parts, but i keep them...in my Citroen :)
Sweeeeet. I like Sebastien Loeb's Citroen too but it probably has horrible speakers.

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Old January 28th, 2013, 03:47 AM   #17 (permalink)
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Not an Hydraulic Citroen:(
As for the speakers, on the contrary : he uses headphones haha !
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Old January 28th, 2013, 08:38 PM   #18 (permalink)
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I like the Citroen thread but as an amp noob I liked the coarse adjustment - fine adjustment stuff even more. I mean, speaker cloth - jeez, whoda thunk!

Would lead dress fit into the fine or coarse adjustment category? Any old threads on that?
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Old January 29th, 2013, 07:24 PM   #19 (permalink)
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I like the Citroen thread but as an amp noob I liked the coarse adjustment - fine adjustment stuff even more. I mean, speaker cloth - jeez, whoda thunk!

Would lead dress fit into the fine or coarse adjustment category? Any old threads on that?
I'm such a noob that I had to look up what lead dress was. Are you looking to reduce hum/noise?
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