Newbie post

[andrewsadlon]

Suppose one wanted to make their first scratch build. Say, something around 25w tube. Would anyone be so kind as to enlighten me with some basic knowledge? :)

Now, most likely I'll be getting a lot of help from my dad, who has worked with electronics and computers and amplifiers all his life. But I think it'd be an awesome experience to build an amp from scratch- I'd learn a lot, I'd score a new amp, and my dad and I could get a little father-son bonding time before I'm off to college.

He has a pretty good idea of what needs to be done, but I wanted to hear from the experts. What are the basic steps? What key points should I keep in mind? How much will it roughly cost, time it'll take etc. Also, I'm a big Fender guy, I really like the sound of their amps (who doesn't?). How could I achieve a "Fender-ish" sound through a custom, scratch-built amp (if that's even possible)?

[charisjapan]

Originally Posted by andrewsadlon

Suppose one wanted to make their first scratch build. Say, something around 25w tube. Would anyone be so kind as to enlighten me with some basic knowledge? :)

Now, most likely I'll be getting a lot of help from my dad, who has worked with electronics and computers and amplifiers all his life. But I think it'd be an awesome experience to build an amp from scratch- I'd learn a lot, I'd score a new amp, and my dad and I could get a little father-son bonding time before I'm off to college.

He has a pretty good idea of what needs to be done, but I wanted to hear from the experts. What are the basic steps? What key points should I keep in mind? How much will it roughly cost, time it'll take etc. Also, I'm a big Fender guy, I really like the sound of their amps (who doesn't?). How could I achieve a "Fender-ish" sound through a custom, scratch-built amp (if that's even possible)?

Andrewsadlon,

Welcome! You came to the right place. Lots of newbies (like me) getting lots of help from experienced builders.

First of all, 25W is a LOT of power... really. Even a nice 5W will fill a big living room. One of the simplest is a 5W Champ clone known as the 5F1 circuit. There are venders here that can help you to put together a very nice amp for minimal outlay of $$$. If you absolutely need more power, a 12-15W 5E3 circuit, AKA Fender's Tweed Deluxe (from the 1950s) will fill a pretty good sized meeting room. Both of these are 'vintage sound' amps, generally leaning toward single-coil guitars, a bit raw, with natural tube distortion. If you want a more modern amp that will work with just about any guitar, folks here will help you in that direction, too.

Have fun and be prepared for several "BE SAFE" comments. And please HEED those words of caution, because large capacitors ARE wicked.

ttyl,

Randy

[andrewsadlon]

Originally Posted by charisjapan

Andrewsadlon,

Welcome! You came to the right place. Lots of newbies (like me) getting lots of help from experienced builders.

First of all, 25W is a LOT of power... really. Even a nice 5W will fill a big living room. One of the simplest is a 5W Champ clone known as the 5F1 circuit. There are venders here that can help you to put together a very nice amp for minimal outlay of $$$. If you absolutely need more power, a 12-15W 5E3 circuit, AKA Fender's Tweed Deluxe (from the 1950s) will fill a pretty good sized meeting room. Both of these are 'vintage sound' amps, generally leaning toward single-coil guitars, a bit raw, with natural tube distortion. If you want a more modern amp that will work with just about any guitar, folks here will help you in that direction, too.

Have fun and be prepared for several "BE SAFE" comments. And please HEED those words of caution, because large capacitors ARE wicked.

ttyl,

Randy

Hey man, thanks for the reply. I was hoping to fill a little more than a big living room with it ;) I have a 15w Fender Frontman that I use for playing around the house. I was hoping for something more "gig-sized", if you know what I mean. Do you think a tube amp of that size (25w or so) would be too big of a first build?

[boredguy6060]

I think you have a great idea, but when you say scratch built, that means different things.
Do you have the means to do some woodworking, like building the cabinet?
Can you do some sheetmetal work, building the chassis

If not your best way to go is a kit.
You can buy them where everything to have a working amp is in one box, or you can buy everything separate.

Either way I think what you're doing and why you're doing it will gain you all the help you and you dad will need.
Like you said, you'll have a great amp , and something to pass on to younger generations with a good story behind it.
I personally would recommend the you look at Weber Amp Kits, and start with that.

[charisjapan]

Originally Posted by andrewsadlon

Hey man, thanks for the reply. I was hoping to fill a little more than a big living room with it ;) I have a 15w Fender Frontman that I use for playing around the house. I was hoping for something more "gig-sized", if you know what I mean. Do you think a tube amp of that size (25w or so) would be too big of a first build?

Hay back at ya!

What BoredGuy said plus a few more questions you have to ask yourself to find out what you need. The real-life difference between building a 5W 1X8" Champ clone and a 40W 4X10" is mostly size, weight and money. Of course there is a certain amount of added complexity in the circuit and more tubes, but not an order of magnitude. If you get into amps with tremolo and reverb, yeah, a lot more study is necessary to understand the workings.

You need to define 'gig-sized' a little better... in an auditorium with a loud drummer and bass, you'll need more than 25W. The 4X10" Bassman is physically big, and will put out quite a bit of sound. But even so, after a certain size venue you will either need a huge amp head with multiple stacks, or just mike it into a PA system, at which point a 12W 5E3 will be your monitor. So, you have to map out your needs, or you could end up with way too much amp, or too little.

The other consideration is your guitar and the kind of tone you're pursuing. Here on TDPRI, single-coil Telecasters and Tweed amps are the cat's meow! Over at Strat-Talk you might get pointed toward a Blackface tone, and at MyL-P a British tone from a Marshall clone. I know that might sound a bit 'bigoted,' but it's relatively true. That said, some of those old Tweed circuits can be tweaked to make just about any guitar sing!

Here at Shock Bros., you'll find a lot of 'crossover' folks that know about most any imaginable amplifier, so whittle down your needs and these guys will help you make some decisions.

Finally, ANY amp you make with your own hands will make you proud! When BoredGuy said 'kit,' he didn't mean a snap-together model. Even a 5F1 Champ kit from a full-source supplier like Weber will challenge you. But Oh, the reward!

Edit: forgot to add, take a peek at this site Boot Hill Amps. You'll see him here by the name Hackworth1, and offers great deals and lots of help to us TDPRI-ers.

charisjapan

[Robster]

I would go the small amp route first especially if your taking it to college with you.
A 15 watt solid state Fender Frontman is about like a 5 watt tube amp. Good advice from Charis. If that is not loud enough you will have the eperience then to go on to a bigger amp.

[hackworth1]

I concur with Robster and Charis. Here's a guy with one of my 5 watt kit builds on stage:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J9qjWdaiJXo

[motor_city_tele]

I would try a single ended 6V6 type (5f1 champ). There are many resources for this type of amplifier. At any one time there are probably a half dozen of these type of builds going on at the same time. And that is just in the TDPRI forum.

before you build, you should practice going about your everyday routine using only one hand. you will need to get in the mindset of not ever touching your project with both hands at the same time.

[Robster]

Hackworth, with that stage lighting I was expecting to hear "Purple Haze"!
Nice amp! Looks dwarfed by the bigger amps on stage.

[andrewsadlon]

Originally Posted by boredguy6060

I think you have a great idea, but when you say scratch built, that means different things.
Do you have the means to do some woodworking, like building the cabinet?
Can you do some sheetmetal work, building the chassis

If not your best way to go is a kit.
You can buy them where everything to have a working amp is in one box, or you can buy everything separate.

Either way I think what you're doing and why you're doing it will gain you all the help you and you dad will need.
Like you said, you'll have a great amp , and something to pass on to younger generations with a good story behind it.
I personally would recommend the you look at Weber Amp Kits, and start with that.

Well by scratch build I meant, starting completely from scratch... Buying everything that I'll need separately. Although, I am pretty open to getting a kit for the first build (although my dad really doesn't wanna do that ;) ).

I have some woodworking experience, my dad has much more, but I believe we have all the tools we need right here at the house. If not, they're not far out of reach. Sheetmetal, I'm sure my dad could work with it, I haven't though.

I will look into the kits though for sure!

[andrewsadlon]

Originally Posted by charisjapan

Hay back at ya!

What BoredGuy said plus a few more questions you have to ask yourself to find out what you need. The real-life difference between building a 5W 1X8" Champ clone and a 40W 4X10" is mostly size, weight and money. Of course there is a certain amount of added complexity in the circuit and more tubes, but not an order of magnitude. If you get into amps with tremolo and reverb, yeah, a lot more study is necessary to understand the workings.

You need to define 'gig-sized' a little better... in an auditorium with a loud drummer and bass, you'll need more than 25W. The 4X10" Bassman is physically big, and will put out quite a bit of sound. But even so, after a certain size venue you will either need a huge amp head with multiple stacks, or just mike it into a PA system, at which point a 12W 5E3 will be your monitor. So, you have to map out your needs, or you could end up with way too much amp, or too little.

The other consideration is your guitar and the kind of tone you're pursuing. Here on TDPRI, single-coil Telecasters and Tweed amps are the cat's meow! Over at Strat-Talk you might get pointed toward a Blackface tone, and at MyL-P a British tone from a Marshall clone. I know that might sound a bit 'bigoted,' but it's relatively true. That said, some of those old Tweed circuits can be tweaked to make just about any guitar sing!

Here at Shock Bros., you'll find a lot of 'crossover' folks that know about most any imaginable amplifier, so whittle down your needs and these guys will help you make some decisions.

Finally, ANY amp you make with your own hands will make you proud! When BoredGuy said 'kit,' he didn't mean a snap-together model. Even a 5F1 Champ kit from a full-source supplier like Weber will challenge you. But Oh, the reward!

Edit: forgot to add, take a peek at this site Boot Hill Amps. You'll see him here by the name Hackworth1, and offers great deals and lots of help to us TDPRI-ers.

charisjapan

Okay here's the thing: I'm a worship leader (as in music worship) at a church currently. I've got a band there, we play every Sunday, weve played a handful of small gigs for events around the church and stuff, etc. I'm actually lining up a fall concert with other local bands as well. Chances are, throughout my senior year, I'm never gonna have a gig that big ("auditorium with a loud drummer and bassist"), although there's a chance the fall concert will be that big. My plans in college though, is to get with a band and start playing some real gigs. I want something pretty decent-sized, but not too big because I wanna be able to crank it and have it not be too loud (that may sound like a contradiction, but hopefully you know what I mean). I can always mic it for a PA.

I mostly play a custom Tele that a buddy made. And I mostly play through a Peavey Studio Pro (?)(which i dislike) solid state, not sure what the wattage is... Or, a fender super champ tube, again not sure o the wattage (which I LOVE and would LOVE to be able to crank the volume past 3 in church... I might get a scolding though). I play a lot of rock, and love the blues. If that gives you any idea of the tone I go for. Obviously, if I don't like what I hear, I'm gonna change something. I won't sit there cringing at my own playing. I must say though... The Peavey that I've been playing through has made me appreciate that SC much more :)

I'll check out those kits, and Boot Hill. Thanks!

[SFenn]

You will save money buying a kit from a reliable source such as Boothill or Weber than if you source everything yourself. Plus you will have a source for tech help that you will find useful.
My first amp was a boothill 5e3 kit and it was a great way to get into amp building.
I now enjoy building from "scratch" but unless you have some wild custom creation in mind stuff like the chassis just make sense to purchase ready made. Building and covering a cabinet is not rocket science and if you have the right tools and skills you can save a few $$.

[Cruisin Home]

Hackworth's customer's video is a great example of a principle often mistunderstood by the tube amplifier novice. Tube amps sound very different at the different volume settings. To get the rich, warm, and sometimes fuzzy sound from these amps you have to get the dial up higher. This is due to the vacuum tubes themselves, they are very non-linear, and produce more of there distortion at the higher end. If you run out and build a 40watt amp and later find you have to keep it turned down low all the time you will displeased with the sound. Unless of course your desing has some type of master volume circuit that allows you to run the tubes high, but shunt some of the output off before the speaker so your output remains low, thus allowing you to run in the distrotion risch zone at low volumes.(important for late night practice playing when others are asleep.)

Second point, Watts has alway been mistaken for loudness. It is not a direct conversion. the biggest variable is the speaker effieciency. Years of old the speakers had sensitivity in the high 80's to low 90s of decibels (db) per watt at 1Meter. However now there aree much higher efficiency speakers, mainly due to advances in rare eareth magnets such a neodidium, wher you can buy a speaker that has sensitivity exceeding 100!!!! So you say 100 is not much diff tha 90, but it is not a linear scale. Basically every 3db is like you have doubled the power!!!!

So if you build one of hackworths 5 watters and put a really high sensitivity speaker on it you will have both loud and you will be able to operate in the "warm and fuzzy" part of the tube's curve. Combination to me is pure heaven when playing the blues, as was so clearly demonstrated in the video.

My suggestion: Start by reading a book, there are several very entry level books such as Dave Hunter's that are written for the layperson as opposed to an engineer and will really shed light on all the areas. You will be much better informed in making your decision, plus you will have some understanding about what you are building and how it really works. Then buy a kit of parts from somebody reputable and caring such as Hackworth. You dont have to buy chassis and cabinet if you dont want, or even the board. You will find kit suppliers give a lot of choices as to what components you want as well. You will not beat their prices by buying the parts onesy twosey yourself from big companies such as grainger or digikey, your volume is just too low.

Last tidbit: Guitar is all about distortion. If you had a really good audio amplifier with lets say less than 1% total Harmonic distortion (THD)and played your guitar thru it you would hate the sound. 10% THD is considered a clean sound in guitar, a "dirty" sound being much higher. That why tube amps have remained alive and well, they are great distortion boxes, with theri distortion being smooth and warm, pleasing to the ears. Solid state designs have to try and artificially, so to speak, add this distortion back in to emulate the tube sound.

Welcome and good luck, as an older electrical engineer I like to see young people want to build something as opposed to buy it. You will learn alot and cherish it the rest of your life.

[andrewsadlon]

Originally Posted by Cruisin Home

Hackworth's customer's video is a great example of a principle often mistunderstood by the tube amplifier novice. Tube amps sound very different at the different volume settings. To get the rich, warm, and sometimes fuzzy sound from these amps you have to get the dial up higher. This is due to the vacuum tubes themselves, they are very non-linear, and produce more of there distortion at the higher end. If you run out and build a 40watt amp and later find you have to keep it turned down low all the time you will displeased with the sound. Unless of course your desing has some type of master volume circuit that allows you to run the tubes high, but shunt some of the output off before the speaker so your output remains low, thus allowing you to run in the distrotion risch zone at low volumes.(important for late night practice playing when others are asleep.)

Second point, Watts has alway been mistaken for loudness. It is not a direct conversion. the biggest variable is the speaker effieciency. Years of old the speakers had sensitivity in the high 80's to low 90s of decibels (db) per watt at 1Meter. However now there aree much higher efficiency speakers, mainly due to advances in rare eareth magnets such a neodidium, wher you can buy a speaker that has sensitivity exceeding 100!!!! So you say 100 is not much diff tha 90, but it is not a linear scale. Basically every 3db is like you have doubled the power!!!!

So if you build one of hackworths 5 watters and put a really high sensitivity speaker on it you will have both loud and you will be able to operate in the "warm and fuzzy" part of the tube's curve. Combination to me is pure heaven when playing the blues, as was so clearly demonstrated in the video.

My suggestion: Start by reading a book, there are several very entry level books such as Dave Hunter's that are written for the layperson as opposed to an engineer and will really shed light on all the areas. You will be much better informed in making your decision, plus you will have some understanding about what you are building and how it really works. Then buy a kit of parts from somebody reputable and caring such as Hackworth. You dont have to buy chassis and cabinet if you dont want, or even the board. You will find kit suppliers give a lot of choices as to what components you want as well. You will not beat their prices by buying the parts onesy twosey yourself from big companies such as grainger or digikey, your volume is just too low.

Last tidbit: Guitar is all about distortion. If you had a really good audio amplifier with lets say less than 1% total Harmonic distortion (THD)and played your guitar thru it you would hate the sound. 10% THD is considered a clean sound in guitar, a "dirty" sound being much higher. That why tube amps have remained alive and well, they are great distortion boxes, with theri distortion being smooth and warm, pleasing to the ears. Solid state designs have to try and artificially, so to speak, add this distortion back in to emulate the tube sound.

Welcome and good luck, as an older electrical engineer I like to see young people want to build something as opposed to buy it. You will learn alot and cherish it the rest of your life.

Wow thanks for all the info. As much of a "newbie" I am to tubes, and really amps in general, I do know they sound better turned up higher... I guess my mistake was not knowing how much power they contain. Here I was thinking 25w was relatively small.

So, basically what you're saying is that in the "days of old" the speakers were less sensitive, causing the need of wattage in the amp to be higher? Cause didn't SRV have an insane amount of wattage behind him? (nott that I'll be playing any shows that big... But who knows :) )

Again thanks for all the background information, I think I understand more now and am thinking a kit will be the way to go.

[pryde]

Yes the type of speaker is significant. I had an old vintage celestion G12H30 and a new Eminence Wizard (very, very, efficient) that I swapped around with on 15w EL34-based tube amp. The difference in loudness between the speakers was nearly twice the volume (perceived) with the high-efficient Eminence. HUGE difference.

I will throw in another vote for Boothill Amps. Support Dave (Hackworth). He is good people and you will be in great hands, if needed.

[andrewsadlon]

So by glancing at Hackworth's profile I realized his shop is in the same county I live in. Sweet. So which kit would you recommend again? I see 3 there. Also, I'll still need to build a cabinet and get a speaker, tubes, and transformers... Any recommendations for these?

[pryde]

Originally Posted by andrewsadlon

So by glancing at Hackworth's profile I realized his shop is in the same county I live in. Sweet. So which kit would you recommend again? I see 3 there. Also, I'll still need to build a cabinet and get a speaker, tubes, and transformers... Any recommendations for these?

Wow lucky you!
tough call on what to get, you may get equal recommendations but I say go for the 5E3. I am biased of course because I built one. It should be plenty loud for any bigger gigs coming up and you can always buy the attenuator kit from Dave to get some sweet natual breakup at lower volumes. Mine sounds fantastic with a Weber 12A125-A speaker.

[hackworth1]

If you are in Volusia County, give me a heads up and you can come to my shop in person at your convenience.

[milocj]

If you can visit his shop and try some amps, that would be best. I don't think its any harder to build a 5E3 than it is to build a 5F1. I'd go with the 12 watt 5E3 as it can do great cleans and dirt. Not sure if you need dirt or not for worship. I usually use my 5E3 or my late '60s Princeton or Princeton Reverbs for backing up the two youth choirs and they're plenty loud without going through the board.

A 5F1 may work at clean volumes if you built a larger cabinet and used a 12" speaker. One of these days I plan on building a tweed Princeton with a cabinet that will handle a 10" or 12" speaker. Its more or less a 5F1 except it also has a tone control instead of just volume.

[printer2]

The first thing you should do is listen to some amps online and find the sound you want. No sense pointing you to a little 5 watter if you like cleans, a 40 watt might be a bit much if you like crunchy distortion. You say you like the Super Champ but can not crank it up. Since I do not know if you have this amp in your stable or just play through it and would like an amp similar for your own (it is about 20W) I will suggest two routes.

To add an amp to complement the SC I would say go to a Champ styled amp (if you find you like the sound), it will allow you to crank that little puppy up without having people ask you to turn it down (all things being relative).

To do a SC loudness kind of amp I would go the Princeton direction and find out who makes a board for this amp. I would not be too concerned with getting a kit as you say your dad has experience that you can rely on. Part of you two sourcing the parts yourself is for you to learn the method and reasoning in selecting the parts (I am assuming dad wants you to understand the process).

In between there is the 5E3 , can play louder than the Champ but gets dirtier before a Princeton. Throw in some negative feedback on a switch and it will clean up some. Could do a Brown Deluxe volume and tone control.

But the important thing is deciding on the sound you want.