Biscuit Joints vs. Box Joints for pine cabinets?

[hepcatrevival]

Have any of you used biscuit joints for a cabinet? I know the traditionalists among us (including me) might be aghast but they are very accurate to cut. I saw a cabinet that a friend and fellow amp maker had recently that used biscuit joints. It looked very substantial and very structurally sound. It would be quicker than a box joint and also the cabinets could all be the same size as cut! LOL

[G-log]

If you want to make the cab faster,biscuit joints are good. IMHO box joints are stronger and may be sonically better.If you want a lot of strength,make the baffle dadoed into the cabinet sides.

[Ragtime Dan]

I used to do plain butt joints, before I knew biscuit joints existed. with a liberal coat of yellow glue, they worked great. biscuits make lining up joints during glue up faster. these simpler methods are superior on cheap woods that break up to much during cutting.
But there's something very satisfying about producing snug fitting box joints.

[Sharp5]

I think the box joint is mechanically stronger. I've built boxes using both methods. Do I think either one matters sound wise? Not really. Another way that is pretty simple is to rabbit two sides and dado the other two sides to accept them.

[iowacarver]

I use a Kreg pocket hole jig.

Corey

[Rob DiStefano]

i prefer dovetail joints for cabs. combos and heads.

click the image below to see me build the cab ...

[BobbyZ]

Any of you guys doing box joints on a table saw ?
Must be a jig for that as well.

[Keyser Soze]

Box joints on a table saw are usually done with a dado blade and a spacing sled.

[Sharp5]

I've done some on the table saw. Pretty simple jig. I just screwed a long board on to my miter gage. Cut the slot with a dado blade. Cut a piece an inch or so long that is the exact height and with as the cut you just made. This is used to register your cuts. Glue it into the slot you just cut. Slide the board over the exact width as the original cut, and tighten back to the miter gage.

But the board against the key for the first cut. Place the key in the cut you just made for the rest.

Now for the boards that mate to the first ones, don't move the board all the way to the key for the first cut. Line up the board so the dado blade takes off a full cut on the corner. Then proceed like you did above.

[onenotetom]

You need to look at this from an engineering standpoint. When an engineer develops specifications and design criteria they look at the requirements of the user. Note that basic home use is different than rolling the amp down a set of stairs. From a structural standpoint they then add a build factor. For example 1.5 times stronger than the actual requirement.

I think most here would agree that box joints are stronger. Most would also agree that a cab built out of 2x12 material box jointed together would also be stronger but is way excessive for the requirement.

So the question goes back to is a pine cabinet joined by biscuits strong enough? In addition to the cabinet joined by biscuits keep in mind that there is a baffle attached to the front to hold the speaker and usually 2 baffles in the rear that add to the structural integrity of the cabinet. Is this strong enough? From an engineering standpoint I would suggest that it is.

To take it a step further, glue up 2 small boxes joined by biscuits. Add baffles to one. Try to break them and report back your results. This could be a cool youtube video.

The sound difference could be argued for days. See all the posts on maple vs. rosewood, nitro vs. poly, alder vs. whatever. My "opinion" is that it would be undetectable. If your opinion is different then take the time to box joint your cabinets.

The two cabinets I have made are box jointed. The only reason that my future cabinets might be box jointed would be from a re-sale standpoint. Kind of like using orange drop caps.

[Just-Jim]

Note that basic home use is different than rolling the amp down a set of stairs. From a structural standpoint they then add a build factor. For example 1.5 times stronger than the actual requirement.

Very true!!! I work with a lot of high end commercial cabinet companies (on the design end). All the cabinet and millwork specifications I read are based on the cabinets being anchored to the wall, and floors in some cases. When a client tries to save money by using economy grade joints, the cabinets are lucky to make it off the truck without falling apart (i.e. glued and pin nailed or doweled without enough glue). Usually the installers end up fixing them in the field before installing them. Once they are installed they are usually fine. I used to question the need for finger or dovetail joints for amps, because done right a basic square butt joint can work, but probably not for someone who will be doing a lot of transporting and heavy abuse. If using a square butt type joint, it is key for the back panel and baffle to be mounted in such a way to add stability. Just my 2 cents.

[BobbyZ]

Thanks Sharp5 ! I may have to reread that a few times but I think I got it.
I know I saw Norm on PBS do box joints that way. I should'a recorded it.
(I do most woodworking with a 371 Husqvarna)

[G-log]

I make all my cabs with a box joint as well, with a similar jig to this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lmrGa_LDxoE

[hackworth1]

Nice work, Rob.

Nice Jig, G-Log.

[hepcatrevival]

So the best engineering advice I get is to do both types and then do destructive testing. Then decide if it meets the needs of the end user. Thanks you all for your input. Especially onenotetom for the engineering suggestions. I'm not sure that I want to spend $200+ for a biscuit jointer right now as I can almost buy two sets of Heyboer transformer for that $200.LOL. The router table is already setup to make box joints with a home made sled. I'll post a picture when I run the next batch.

[Bill Moore]

I lucked out with a friend who bought a bisquit tool. If you think about it, a top resting on the sides has no force against the joint until moved. All the weight of the chassis is supported by the sides, and when lifted, the chassis is bolted to the top.
Bisquits are fast, and glue is strong.

[Rob DiStefano]

biscuits work fine, for most amp/cab boxes. heck, butted and cleated boards work just as well. but dovetails and box joints look best if the box isn't covered and the wood is stained and clear coated. i prefer dovetails - the strongest and lightest of all joining methods.

[woodbutcher]

Good thread.

Gave me something to do while the kit and parts are in transit.

I think that if you are building for customers, you should give them the best joint possible, as long as they are willing to pay for quality. If it is in the cards for you to provide details that mirror the original equipment, it's money in the bank (or at least a feather in your cap).

If it's a personal build, what ever makes you happy is all the rage.

But what do I know, this is going to be my first build!

Here's the results of a couple hours of hanging out in the shop.

Mark

[paratus]

I prefer dovetails if it needs to look good, but biscuit joinery is more than strong enough. Good wood, Tite Bond, and clamps, and all is good.

[hepcatrevival]

Wow, Woodbutcher, is this your first try? It took me about ten cabinets and a lot of hammering before I could get the joints to look like that. The Key for me was to buy a digital caliper to measure the 1/2 inch from the router bit to the 1/2 inch block on the sled assembly. The best I could do with a ruler or tape measure was .486. Too much error accumulated over about 10 cuts. With the caliper? .500 on the nose and the joints fit perfectly! This over about a year of experimenting. You get it first try. My hat's off to you!