tightening up bottom end on 5E3

[gearjunkie]

After building this last tweed deluxe and installing it into the combo, I noticed at least to my ears the lack of bottom end with the .022 i installed throughout the board...I had been playing the builds with .022 through a closedback cab with a C-Rex speaker and now I'm wanting to see about getting a bit more bottom end into the tone... Would changing the first two coupling caps from pin 7 and 8 of V2 from the .022 to say a .047 or .056 make much difference as I can purchase the .056 quite a bit cheaper than the .047... Thank you..

[firemedic]

Use the .056, it should be almost tonally identical to a .047. I assume you are referring to the caps coming off the phase inverter.

[jhundt]

maybe you should look at this...

http://www.ampbooks.com/home/amplifi...ing-capacitor/

I wouldn't bet that either of those would make much difference.

[gearjunkie]

phase inverter or bright volume cap...

[TNO]

.02 caps are very full range. Any larger than that and the bottom end just gets flabby. I would try reducing the volume bypass cap by a lot- maybe even all the way down to 47pF. The biggest improvement to solid bass IMO is to change the first filter (the one closest to the PT) to around 30uF. This really helps the amp reproduce clean bass instead of farting out. Don't go much over 30uF with a 5Y3.

[gearjunkie]

change the V1 bypass cap TNO from the 25uf to a 47uf ?? i've read that yes changing the first filter cap to a 30 will tighten up the bass but the other two should be changed from 16 16 to 10 10.. Stephen that owns trinity amps suggested against me making these filter cap changes and he never did (like many emails) reply to the reason why it shouldn't be done, he just said he'd advise against it..

[gearjunkie]

not sure whether going to 30-10-10 filter caps to stiffen up the bass or go the bypass cap route (to what value though) or do both mods ??

[fezz parka]

FWIW, the original design needs no "improvement". .1uF.

Tighten up the bottom? Efficient speaker.

[gearjunkie]

well fezz, with the speaker combo I have and all the stock .1 coupling caps I do not care for the boomin bottom end.... but leavin all the .022 and just changing the bright channel back to the orange drop .1 this afternoon sounds alot better, with both the gretsch and tele....but i'll wait until I have another jam this coming weekend to really give it a proper test run..

[fezz parka]

No OD. Mallory 150's.

What guitar are you playing though it?

[tubeswell]

Ways of getting cleaner bass in a 5E3:

1) Use a lower gain, and/or wider-bandwidth pre-amp tubes (like a 5751 or 12AT7) in the driver-inverter position, or (a 12AY7 or 5751) in the V1 position. This reduces signal clipping and a wider bandwidth tube improves bandwidth

2) Coupling cap tweaks and Rk/Ck tweaks to design the freq roll-off to keep the bass out of the signal chain early on - but 'put it back' in the signal chain later on (e.g.: smaller bypass caps and coupling caps at V1, and full-on bass boost to the driver stage in front of the cathodyne, and as-big-as-you-can-coupling-caps from the inverter to the output tube grids, and increasing the Ck at the output tube stage).

3) Raise the HT voltage (by halving the resistance of the supply resistors or by using a different rectifier - like a 5AR4, or by changing the PT to a higher-voltage high tension winding)

4) conversion to output tubes that require a bigger bias (grid-cathode) voltage - like a 6F6G or 5881/6L6 (the latter most likely requires changing the PT and OT for most 5E3s). This reduces signal clipping at the output tube grids

5) Bigger OT iron - better inductance for bass frequencies

6) More powerfully-rated speaker - better bass freq resonance

[TNO]

"change the V1 bypass cap TNO from the 25uf to a 47uf ??"
You could do that but 25uF is full range. I'm the guy that's always recommending 30-10-10 on the filters. Minimal filtering on the preamp is a bit more 'lively' without increasing hum. I'm a fan of old Gibson amps and they used 20-10-10.

You should try lowering the value of the treble bypass cap on the volume control (250pF) to 47pF before doing anything else. 5E3s have plenty of bass but that bypass cap sounds harsh to my ears.

[gearjunkie]

I only had the .1 OD to try Fezz but had a bunch of spare mallory 150 in .022 but wanted to try the .1 so i put the OD in for the time being just to try it on the bright volume coupling..

1: Will changing the V2 from the 12ax7 to a Y not reduce the gain and Really change the overall dynamics to far more headroom tubeswell

2: bout the only thing i understood here tubeswell, was to change the V1 bypass cap to say a .47uf and say a .022 coupling cap, but the rest i'm not sure of..

3;Bout the only thing I think I understood what you advised here tubeswell was to increase B+ voltage by installing different recitifer tube...I have the JJ that they sent with the kit and it's down around 380 but have a loaner sovtek that puts it back up to around 425 which I think I will prefer ...but thats about all i understood from what u said, as I don't quite understand all the EE terms and shortforms yet, but i'm trying to learn as quick as i can..

4: again and i'm sorry but I don't get what's meant by halving the resistors of the supply resistors or thereofre by changing to a 5AR4 rec tube..which reduces signal clipping at the output tube grids ?????

5: bigger OT and or speaker...I have that C-Rex in there and I think it's rated for 70watts an 103db...I really like the tones from the 5E3 overall but I just want to fix it up in one area not revamp the entire unit to change it to sound like something else, because i really do like it, but it's just lacking in the one area..

TNO...so changing the filter caps to 30 10 10 will not require both 2watt resistors that couple the 3 of them together ??

The treble bypass cap...is that the one that is between the bright volume and tone pot?? because the one on these builds are 500pf with a .0047 mallory cap in between them as well.....we just changed the 500pf to a 680 and it seems much better, but i haven't played through it much yet to really give it it a proper evaluation...

[Modern Saint]

I just replaced my two front end caps with .022 values. The amp sounds great and does not bottom out anymore. I do have .047's as well but chose the .022 because my Bandmaster build has the same front end as the 5E3 less tone control section. My tube config is the old standard so I already have a 12AY7 in V1. My friend also recommended the bypass cap change but I am going with the .022 because of the commonality with the Bandmaster first stage.

It was at 9:45pm last night that I got to play through it so I had to use pillows in front and back just too dampen the sound. I play a low volume blues gig tonight and have used it over the last several weeks so I will hear the change and report back regarding this as well. Also tomorrow I have an open blues jam where my amp will be part of tomorrows backline. I will be able to hear it at volumes. Report to follow on that.

[chabby]

I tightened one up without even touching the inside Hint: and this is the easiest way for any amp owner to alter their tone without technical skill:

Change the 5e3 speaker to a 4, 8 or 16ohm (because mine is plumbed for each)
and use a ceramic speaker rated at 70 watts RMS.

A good one that sounds great comes already in a nice cab and everything ready to go is the speaker cab for the little epiphone 5 watt head. Just buy the speaker and cabinet for 90 bucks then unplug your on board 5e3 speaker and plug in this cab.

Of course, you can only do this if your 5e3 is plumbed for a 16 ohm speaker cab.
Otherwise just buy an 8ohm 70 watt ceramic speaker from eminence, or the mgk'er of your choice. The increased wattage rating and going from alnico to ceramic will increase head room in the 5e3 and also tighten the bass. The other way is to change rectifiers from the 5y3 that comes standrd, to a GZ34 or rewire it for solid state rectification, which can be really cool and tighten the bass.

[TNO]

"The treble bypass cap...is that the one that is between the bright volume and tone pot?? because the one on these builds are 500pf with a .0047 mallory cap in between them as well.....we just changed the 500pf to a 680 and it seems much better"

Going to 680 made it brighter. That's the one I like to take down to 120 or 47pF. That cap bypasses treble around the volume pot so bigger=brighter. No need to change the resistors if you redo the filter caps.

[gearjunkie]

chabby, I wish my OT was impedence selectable, but it isn't and I am happy with the sound from the 50watt C-Rex, but honestly feel the little blackheart cab I had the speaker mounted in before my combo cab was done had sweeter tone that it has now, as you mentioned ..

TNO, I guess for the price of the silver mica caps I couldn't hurt to try another one in place of the 680, but I found the info here and liked what I read...have a look..

http://www.recproaudio.com/diy_pro_a...w_pass_mod.htm

[TNO]

Ernie- That article mentions changing the .005 to a 680pF. That's the tone control cap and the stock .005 works very well. The 500pF cap lets highs around the volume pot and makes the amp brighter at low volume. I like the smallest value I can get away with here. Go too low (or leave the cap off entirely) and the first half of the volume pot may get muddy.

If you've been using the bright channel you might give the mic channel a try.

[gearjunkie]

Thanks for the direction TNO..I'm going to change the Sprague filter caps out to MIEC 30 10 10, but am not going to spend the $30+ on the sprague atoms this time as I feel now that they are more hype than anything else from what I've been reading..I just ordered the E-caps from "just radios" for under $9