When mastering, where does one set the peak output, in db, 0 or -3?

Bonneville Bruce · July 26th, 2007, 02:57 AM

My partner and I finished producing an album in April for a local band, two acoustic singer-songwriter types. When we took it to a production house here in Boise, we were told by their engineer that there were spikes over -3 db and they shoud be compressed prior to mass-production. We had mastered the album to be just under 0 db at all points, but this guy said that the singals over -3 db would distort/clip in the production process.

We went with his direction and re-mastered it, at a considerable cost in time and agnst, so that it didn't exceed -3 db. Now, it is obviously lower in volume than big label "professionally" mixed and mastered albums. We are comparing this album to others with similar vocals and instrumental arrangements, not something like Korn or Hawthorne Heights. Now we have 1,000 copies of an album that needs to be turned up to play at comparable listening levels. The client is less than happy about that.

We know that there is a whole world of mastering that is beyond most diy-type outfits like ours, and that good mastering is a very difficult and expensive task. A recent thread here addressed this issue, and the consensus seemed to be that one should compress the master tracks and set the output to 0 db and all would be fine and equal to professionally mastered output levels.

The first question is, does one master to -3 db, or, 0 db, as has been cited in many threads and publications?

Second question: whose 0 db is the standard against which others are measured? Or, what is the definition of 0 db as an industry standard and how does one go about calibrating ones system to achieve that standard?

Thanks,

Bonneville Bruce

woodman · July 27th, 2007, 11:24 AM

i don't understand how -3 could result in clipping. your second question may be the key --are there different standards for 0 dB? anybody know?

Bill Hullett · July 27th, 2007, 03:16 PM

Compare what the output of your CD looks like on the CD player as compared to a pro CD something is really wrong.....and it sounds like it happened in mastering....

Bill Hullett

fezz parka · July 27th, 2007, 05:28 PM

You shouldn't exceed -3dB. It will clip when making the glass master, and it will reject the CD. FWIW, you can peak limit the crap out of a digital signal, resulting in something that sounds really loud, and not have peaks above -3dB. It'll also sound like crap.

Big John · July 30th, 2007, 09:16 AM

Hang on a mo' it should be - 0.3db and not -3 !!

This is the waves 'UltraMaximizer' set at the 'highest quality' setting and they use - 0.3db, i always finish off with this and have never had a distortion problem, even when going to glass.

Hope this helps.

the_muel · July 31st, 2007, 01:08 PM

+1 on the -0.3 db, I've read in loads of magazines (sound on sound etc.) that -0.3 db is the maximum level that a cd can handle, and I've been using this benchmark in my cd mastering for the last 5 years.

fezz parka · July 31st, 2007, 02:15 PM

Yes, that's what I meant, -0.3dB. I used the same peak limiter, the Waves L2, on about 50 soundtrack releases.

Skully · July 31st, 2007, 02:36 PM

I'm curious as to why the L2 preset for Hi Res CD Master defaults to -0.2.

fezz parka · August 1st, 2007, 12:56 AM

I dunno. I change it.

Bonneville Bruce · August 3rd, 2007, 03:17 AM

Thanks, fellas, I knew I could count on this group to get to the bottom of this. We'll target the -0.3 peak level next time.

Could you tell me more about the UltraMaximizer and how you use it?

I'm still intrested in what constitutes the 0 db standard and how one would be sure that one's hardware and software were using the same standard as the mastering production equipment.

Thanks,

Bonneville Bruce

Quote:

Originally Posted by Big John

Hang on a mo' it should be - 0.3db and not -3 !!

This is the waves 'UltraMaximizer' set at the 'highest quality' setting and they use - 0.3db, i always finish off with this and have never had a distortion problem, even when going to glass.

Hope this helps.

Big John · August 3rd, 2007, 08:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bonneville Bruce

Thanks, fellas, I knew I could count on this group to get to the bottom of this. We'll target the -0.3 peak level next time.
Could you tell me more about the UltraMaximizer and how you use it?
I'm still intrested in what constitutes the 0 db standard and how one would be sure that one's hardware and software were using the same standard as the mastering production equipment.
Thanks,
Bonneville Bruce

Hey BB, i use the UltraMaximizer as a limiter but by dragging down the 'threshold' slider you can get a SERIOUS amount of loudness out of your track, you have to use it wisely though, too much of that gets very annoying VERY quick, use it as a tool.
I often use the mono version of it as an effect on vocals to even out the tone of the mic and voice where it imparts a kind of 'tube like' tone, again best not to overdo it !
As a final mix tool i find it invaluable !!, if you set it - NOTHING will get past it !

As for Zero Db ?, maybe a trawl through Wikipedia will help.

rdchapman · August 6th, 2007, 03:26 PM

I've been using -2 from the L2 default and burning cd's for production without any problems. Will this be too high if I have a pro duplication done? I mean -.02 to -.03 is almost nothing but I don't see any peaks over and get no distortion that I have heard so far. Or is that just to leave a little more room for overshoot error?

Big John · August 7th, 2007, 11:43 AM

0.2 or 0.3 ????

Hmmmmm, i guess thats a "suck it and see" operation, i must admit i have never upgraded to the L2 but cant imagine they would include a pre-set they knew wouldn't work.

It might be to trap 'overshoot' but you would think the difference was too minimal, i dont know though, if it works ------- dont fix it !!

eyema_believer · August 7th, 2007, 11:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Big John

0.2 or 0.3 ????

Hmmmmm, i guess thats a "suck it and see" operation, i must admit i have never upgraded to the L2 but cant imagine they would include a pre-set they knew wouldn't work.

It might be to trap 'overshoot' but you would think the difference was too minimal, i dont know though, if it works ------- dont fix it !!

FWIW, I've got the L1, the L2, and the L3, and they all seem to have the exact same presets, which I don't get. Seems like there would be different ones. or at least rename them... I'm sure they have to be different in some way, right? I really really love waves stuff. I've got the Diamond set, and it is everything I need in one box. Except my BBE sonic maximizer plug....
I do have to say though, I got serious digital clipping on a track once, from Discmakers.
What is 0db? I think that is a pretty loaded question, and not easy to answer. In a digital audio file, it's anything more than can be expressed with
1s and 0s, in a specified way, given the bit depth of the file. This is the theory, In practice, it seems certain that different D/As "overflow" at different digital levels. In the analog realm, 0db can be expressed as a certain voltage ( I think ).
At any rate, I feel sorry for the customer that has that quiet recording. -3db is a whole heck of a lot more than -0.3db. When you consider the fact that the human ear perceives -6db as half of the original volume, -3 could pretty much ruin things.
I'd love to hear some stuff you guys are producing. Sounds like there are some real pros on this board! Awesome!!

Peace!

~Shawn

eyema_believer · August 7th, 2007, 11:51 PM

whups, double post!

Big John · August 8th, 2007, 05:03 AM

Off the top of my head --- is the difference something to do with 16 or 24 bit recording ??, i'm still in the 16 bit stoneage at home where i have the L1 and the pre-set i use that defaults to -0.3db is called "16bit finalmaster".

Lots of results here with Google, mostly talking -0.3db.
Google link

StuH · August 8th, 2007, 06:37 AM

It would be interesting if someone sent Waves an email on the subject. I bet they would reply. Pretty interesting topic. I have to look at my presets on my Nomad factory stuff now.

July 26th, 2007, 02:57 AM	#1 (permalink)
Bonneville Bruce Tele-Holic Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Caldwell, Idaho Posts: 569	When mastering, where does one set the peak output, in db, 0 or -3? My partner and I finished producing an album in April for a local band, two acoustic singer-songwriter types. When we took it to a production house here in Boise, we were told by their engineer that there were spikes over -3 db and they shoud be compressed prior to mass-production. We had mastered the album to be just under 0 db at all points, but this guy said that the singals over -3 db would distort/clip in the production process. We went with his direction and re-mastered it, at a considerable cost in time and agnst, so that it didn't exceed -3 db. Now, it is obviously lower in volume than big label "professionally" mixed and mastered albums. We are comparing this album to others with similar vocals and instrumental arrangements, not something like Korn or Hawthorne Heights. Now we have 1,000 copies of an album that needs to be turned up to play at comparable listening levels. The client is less than happy about that. We know that there is a whole world of mastering that is beyond most diy-type outfits like ours, and that good mastering is a very difficult and expensive task. A recent thread here addressed this issue, and the consensus seemed to be that one should compress the master tracks and set the output to 0 db and all would be fine and equal to professionally mastered output levels. The first question is, does one master to -3 db, or, 0 db, as has been cited in many threads and publications? Second question: whose 0 db is the standard against which others are measured? Or, what is the definition of 0 db as an industry standard and how does one go about calibrating ones system to achieve that standard? Thanks, Bonneville Bruce __________________ "Let us issue, 'Live Music is Better' bumper stickers."

July 27th, 2007, 11:24 AM	#2 (permalink)
woodman Poster Extraordinaire Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Mint Hill, NC Age: 62 Posts: 5,958	i don't understand how -3 could result in clipping. your second question may be the key --are there different standards for 0 dB? anybody know? __________________ Truth is stranger than fact ... www.myspace.com/woodymitchellmusic BAND PAGES: www.myspace.com/stragglerswing (Stragglers - Western Swing) www.myspace.com/loafersgloryband (Loafers Glory - '70s country-rock)

July 27th, 2007, 03:16 PM	#3 (permalink)
Bill Hullett Tele-Afflicted Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Nashville Tn. Posts: 1,214	fwiw Compare what the output of your CD looks like on the CD player as compared to a pro CD something is really wrong.....and it sounds like it happened in mastering.... Bill Hullett

July 30th, 2007, 09:16 AM	#5 (permalink)
Big John Friend of Leo's Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Suffolk UK Posts: 4,690 36 Photos	Hang on a mo' it should be - 0.3db and not -3 !! This is the waves 'UltraMaximizer' set at the 'highest quality' setting and they use - 0.3db, i always finish off with this and have never had a distortion problem, even when going to glass. Hope this helps. __________________ If you are going to be a bear, be a grizzly !!

July 31st, 2007, 02:36 PM	#8 (permalink)
Skully Friend of Leo's Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Glamorous NoHo Posts: 3,987	I'm curious as to why the L2 preset for Hi Res CD Master defaults to -0.2. __________________ Myspace.com/skullysounds

July 27th, 2007, 05:28 PM	#4 (permalink)
fezz parka Tele-Afflicted Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: A town south of Bakersfield... Posts: 1,283 45 Photos	You shouldn't exceed -3dB. It will clip when making the glass master, and it will reject the CD. FWIW, you can peak limit the crap out of a digital signal, resulting in something that sounds really loud, and not have peaks above -3dB. It'll also sound like crap.

July 31st, 2007, 01:08 PM	#6 (permalink)
the_muel TDPRI Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: Alston - UK Age: 28 Posts: 36 12 Photos	+1 on the -0.3 db, I've read in loads of magazines (sound on sound etc.) that -0.3 db is the maximum level that a cd can handle, and I've been using this benchmark in my cd mastering for the last 5 years.

July 31st, 2007, 02:15 PM	#7 (permalink)
fezz parka Tele-Afflicted Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: A town south of Bakersfield... Posts: 1,283 45 Photos	Yes, that's what I meant, -0.3dB. I used the same peak limiter, the Waves L2, on about 50 soundtrack releases.

August 1st, 2007, 12:56 AM	#9 (permalink)
fezz parka Tele-Afflicted Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: A town south of Bakersfield... Posts: 1,283 45 Photos	I dunno. I change it.

August 6th, 2007, 03:26 PM	#12 (permalink)
rdchapman Tele-Meister Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Saratoga, NY Age: 54 Posts: 415	I've been using -2 from the L2 default and burning cd's for production without any problems. Will this be too high if I have a pro duplication done? I mean -.02 to -.03 is almost nothing but I don't see any peaks over and get no distortion that I have heard so far. Or is that just to leave a little more room for overshoot error?

August 7th, 2007, 11:43 AM	#13 (permalink)
Big John Friend of Leo's Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Suffolk UK Posts: 4,690 36 Photos	0.2 or 0.3 ???? Hmmmmm, i guess thats a "suck it and see" operation, i must admit i have never upgraded to the L2 but cant imagine they would include a pre-set they knew wouldn't work. It might be to trap 'overshoot' but you would think the difference was too minimal, i dont know though, if it works ------- dont fix it !! __________________ If you are going to be a bear, be a grizzly !!

August 7th, 2007, 11:51 PM	#15 (permalink)
eyema_believer Tele-Meister Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Milan, Michigan USA Posts: 311	whups, double post!

August 8th, 2007, 05:03 AM	#16 (permalink)
Big John Friend of Leo's Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Suffolk UK Posts: 4,690 36 Photos	Off the top of my head --- is the difference something to do with 16 or 24 bit recording ??, i'm still in the 16 bit stoneage at home where i have the L1 and the pre-set i use that defaults to -0.3db is called "16bit finalmaster". Lots of results here with Google, mostly talking -0.3db. Google link __________________ If you are going to be a bear, be a grizzly !! Last edited by Big John; August 8th, 2007 at 06:24 AM.

August 8th, 2007, 06:37 AM	#17 (permalink)
StuH Tele-Afflicted Join Date: May 2006 Location: Yukon, Canada Age: 38 Posts: 1,480 12 Photos	It would be interesting if someone sent Waves an email on the subject. I bet they would reply. Pretty interesting topic. I have to look at my presets on my Nomad factory stuff now.