What should I look for in a keyboard controller

GhostofJohnToad · July 10th, 2007, 11:45 AM

I'm not much of a keyboard guy, but I'd like to add some keyboard stuff to some of my recordings. I am currently using cubase as well as some soft synths I have found. It's very challenging to record these synth parts by step editing and I think it's time to make the transition.

What basics should I be looking for? Like everyone else, I am on a budget. I'm just starting the research so I have some time to look.

teledude66 · July 10th, 2007, 01:06 PM

Can I tag along? I also use Cubase, and have wondered about this synth stuff. So in step editing, we're talking about the screen with the grid where you tell it the note and and how long to hold it (making sure we're on the same page) ? When you use the keyboard controller will you have to play in time, or do you just use the keys, instead of clicking each square on the grid?

jussishow · July 10th, 2007, 04:18 PM

The M-Audio Axiom 49 looks interesting : M-Audio axiom 49 review

More : make Your pick ! :-)

I've used an old/ancient Yamaha SY-22 synth for recording/sequencing ... As long as there's a MIDI out jack it's OK ...

/J

GhostofJohnToad · July 10th, 2007, 04:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by teledude66

Can I tag along? I also use Cubase, and have wondered about this synth stuff. So in step editing, we're talking about the screen with the grid where you tell it the note and and how long to hold it (making sure we're on the same page) ? When you use the keyboard controller will you have to play in time, or do you just use the keys, instead of clicking each square on the grid?

That's exactly what I do at the moment, so yeah I guess we are trying to get to the same point starting from the same page.

Ben Harmless · July 10th, 2007, 04:30 PM

I've had some limited experience with keyboard controllers, but I'll at least drop what I learned in here.

First, avoid anything that says "E-Mu" on it. I'm done buying products from Creative Labs. Used to be a great company, now I can't get their toys to even install consistently on my machine.

Ranting out of the way, there are a few things to consider. My personal first consideration is the feel/action of the keys. I'm no piano player, so I'm not really in desperate need of weighted keys. I love the action on Hammond organs, (not that I have or know how to really play one) so I go for that type of thing more readily. My major consideration is how solid the keys feel. Most of the controllers around nowadays have the cheapest feeling crappy plastic keys ever. I want solid. I want to feel like I can play the thing!

Then there are other functions. Most of the controllers around have pitch and modulation wheels to the left of the keys. I've only ever used those to change Leslie speed while pretending to play the organ. You can almost always assign them to other functions as well.

After that, since MIDI allows you to assign functions to invidual controls, it's really how many extra controls, and what kind. There are boards with sliders (I don't call 'em faders when they're 40mm long...) and there are some with buttons, and some with knobs. Some have all of the above. I personally like a minimum of extra controls, so as to have fewer things to break.

teledude66, traditional step editing is simply tapping the notes in the sequence you want them and assigning them their length (and other characteristics) as you go. Grid editing is a somewhat newer way of doing things, but it's often tough to really get the feel of a human being that way. The great thing about a keyboard controller is that you actually perform the piece yourself. If you want to make it perfect later, you can quantize the track, and each note will snap to a virtual grid. Perfect timing, and perfect velocity (the MIDI value attached to how hard you hit the key). I'd say most of the reason to get a keyboard controller is to capture the things that are missed when you're editing with a grid. You can always edit the MIDI information after you record it if something's really wrong, but it's much tougher to get all those little imperfections we call "groove" when editing with a grid.

BTW, the controller I've got my eye on at the moment is this one from M-audio. It's not the fanciest, but it's not the most expensive either. Feels very solid to me. The overall build is a little better than most out there, IMHO. Lots of buttons, sliders, knobs, and trigger pads though. It's a tradeoff I suppose.

Skully · July 10th, 2007, 07:30 PM

Quote:

The M-Audio Axiom 49 looks interesting : M-Audio axiom 49 review

I bought one a few months back and I'm very happy with it. If you think you need more octaves all at once (you can always shift up or down), go with the 61-key version Ben mentions above.

Skully · July 10th, 2007, 07:33 PM

Quote:

So in step editing, we're talking about the screen with the grid where you tell it the note and and how long to hold it (making sure we're on the same page) ? When you use the keyboard controller will you have to play in time, or do you just use the keys, instead of clicking each square on the grid?

It's easier just to play the damn thing, no matter how lame a player you are. You can always step editing by punching in for parts and tweak the notes you played afterwards. Personally, I don't like to edit MIDI data much. I'm find it much easier to manipulate waveforms.

Bonneville Bruce · July 10th, 2007, 11:45 PM

I'm sort of at the next step, I just purchased an M-Audio USB/MIDI Mobile Workstation/keyboard. I got this new for $90 in a Guitar Center sale, and it lists for over $300. I haven't the slightest idea of how to use it. I've had no luck getting the USB to work with my Mac G5, so I'm about to try the MIDI into Mackie Traction 2.

I bought it mainly for drum parts, as I have a Roger Linn RMIV LINPLUG drum plug-in in Tracktion.

The Ozone looks like a good unit for what I want, if anything, it has more than I need. That is, it has a two-channel analog to digital converter to send vocal or instrument performances to your computer, which would be a great thing for those of you with laptops and recording software, like GarageBand.

I'd just like to know how to get my mac to see the USB imput from this thing.

Bonneville Bruce

teledude66 · July 11th, 2007, 10:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skully

It's easier just to play the damn thing, no matter how lame a player you are. You can always step editing by punching in for parts and tweak the notes you played afterwards. Personally, I don't like to edit MIDI data much. I'm find it much easier to manipulate waveforms.

Ok so I get a controller, and I play along with already recorded tracks, right? So if that's the case in my synth list it'll say sax, trombone, blah blah, if I pick that sound I will play along in real time with that tone? I don't want to sound dumb, but I guess I am when it comes to this stuff, I've avoided it like the plague, but in the back of my mind I know it could lead to a lot of cool stuff. One other question, I have a keyboard with with midi plugs in it, I'm assuming this is the same thing, yes/no?

GhostofJohnToad · July 11th, 2007, 11:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by teledude66

Ok so I get a controller, and I play along with already recorded tracks, right? So if that's the case in my synth list it'll say sax, trombone, blah blah, if I pick that sound I will play along in real time with that tone? I don't want to sound dumb, but I guess I am when it comes to this stuff, I've avoided it like the plague, but in the back of my mind I know it could lead to a lot of cool stuff. One other question, I have a keyboard with with midi plugs in it, I'm assuming this is the same thing, yes/no?

I guess I'm in the same boat. I'm hoping that is what will happen with this controller thing as well - Play along and record. If that's the case I have been primitive and doing it the hard way for too long.

Tedecaster · July 12th, 2007, 02:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by teledude66

Ok so I get a controller, and I play along with already recorded tracks, right? So if that's the case in my synth list it'll say sax, trombone, blah blah, if I pick that sound I will play along in real time with that tone? I don't want to sound dumb, but I guess I am when it comes to this stuff, I've avoided it like the plague, but in the back of my mind I know it could lead to a lot of cool stuff. One other question, I have a keyboard with with midi plugs in it, I'm assuming this is the same thing, yes/no?

I'm MIDI ignorant, but did manage to get the MIDI working in my recently acquired PT 7 set-up. What it records on the track are the MIDI commands (I played along using a Hammond patch). However, since it's just a series of commands, when I play it back I can assign a different synth sound for those commands to trigger.

I sat one night with the track playing & re-assigned the MIDI patch as it played, listening to all the different sounds & instruments that I had, just to see what they were.

I also know (but haven't done it yet) that if I am completely happy with a particular MIDI sound/performance, I can then bounce that to another track & record it as audio.

That's about as much as I know so far.

Skully · July 12th, 2007, 03:20 PM

If you're using virtual synth plug-ins, you open both a MIDI track and an audio track. In the audio track, you open a virtual synth in the effects bin and choose the voice you want to use (horns, strings, drums -- whatever). Then you assign the output in the MIDI track to that soft synth. That's the way it works in Sonar, anyway.

July 10th, 2007, 11:45 AM	#1 (permalink)
GhostofJohnToad Tele-Holic Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Toledo, Ohio Age: 35 Posts: 735 7 Photos	What should I look for in a keyboard controller I'm not much of a keyboard guy, but I'd like to add some keyboard stuff to some of my recordings. I am currently using cubase as well as some soft synths I have found. It's very challenging to record these synth parts by step editing and I think it's time to make the transition. What basics should I be looking for? Like everyone else, I am on a budget. I'm just starting the research so I have some time to look.

July 10th, 2007, 01:06 PM	#2 (permalink)
teledude66 Friend of Leo's Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Lawndale,N.C. Age: 42 Posts: 2,751 20 Photos	Can I tag along? I also use Cubase, and have wondered about this synth stuff. So in step editing, we're talking about the screen with the grid where you tell it the note and and how long to hold it (making sure we're on the same page) ? When you use the keyboard controller will you have to play in time, or do you just use the keys, instead of clicking each square on the grid? __________________ The fact that no one understands you doesn't mean you're an artist.

July 10th, 2007, 04:18 PM	#3 (permalink)
jussishow Tele-Holic Join Date: May 2006 Location: Norway. Age: 37 Posts: 530 16 Photos	The M-Audio Axiom 49 looks interesting : M-Audio axiom 49 review More : make Your pick ! :-) I've used an old/ancient Yamaha SY-22 synth for recording/sequencing ... As long as there's a MIDI out jack it's OK ... /J __________________ B-bender, HW1 Texas & CS Thinline relic ... :-) + a bunch of other stringed instruments ... Pictures (family album...) in gallery

July 10th, 2007, 04:30 PM	#5 (permalink)
Ben Harmless Friend of Leo's Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Albany, NY US of A Posts: 3,264 6 Photos	I've had some limited experience with keyboard controllers, but I'll at least drop what I learned in here. First, avoid anything that says "E-Mu" on it. I'm done buying products from Creative Labs. Used to be a great company, now I can't get their toys to even install consistently on my machine. Ranting out of the way, there are a few things to consider. My personal first consideration is the feel/action of the keys. I'm no piano player, so I'm not really in desperate need of weighted keys. I love the action on Hammond organs, (not that I have or know how to really play one) so I go for that type of thing more readily. My major consideration is how solid the keys feel. Most of the controllers around nowadays have the cheapest feeling crappy plastic keys ever. I want solid. I want to feel like I can play the thing! Then there are other functions. Most of the controllers around have pitch and modulation wheels to the left of the keys. I've only ever used those to change Leslie speed while pretending to play the organ. You can almost always assign them to other functions as well. After that, since MIDI allows you to assign functions to invidual controls, it's really how many extra controls, and what kind. There are boards with sliders (I don't call 'em faders when they're 40mm long...) and there are some with buttons, and some with knobs. Some have all of the above. I personally like a minimum of extra controls, so as to have fewer things to break. teledude66, traditional step editing is simply tapping the notes in the sequence you want them and assigning them their length (and other characteristics) as you go. Grid editing is a somewhat newer way of doing things, but it's often tough to really get the feel of a human being that way. The great thing about a keyboard controller is that you actually perform the piece yourself. If you want to make it perfect later, you can quantize the track, and each note will snap to a virtual grid. Perfect timing, and perfect velocity (the MIDI value attached to how hard you hit the key). I'd say most of the reason to get a keyboard controller is to capture the things that are missed when you're editing with a grid. You can always edit the MIDI information after you record it if something's really wrong, but it's much tougher to get all those little imperfections we call "groove" when editing with a grid. BTW, the controller I've got my eye on at the moment is this one from M-audio. It's not the fanciest, but it's not the most expensive either. Feels very solid to me. The overall build is a little better than most out there, IMHO. Lots of buttons, sliders, knobs, and trigger pads though. It's a tradeoff I suppose. __________________ "I think I'll go for the life of sin, followed by the last-minute, presto-change-o, deathbed repentance." - B. Simpson

July 10th, 2007, 11:45 PM	#8 (permalink)
Bonneville Bruce Tele-Holic Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Caldwell, Idaho Posts: 569	I'm sort of at the next step, I just purchased an M-Audio USB/MIDI Mobile Workstation/keyboard. I got this new for $90 in a Guitar Center sale, and it lists for over $300. I haven't the slightest idea of how to use it. I've had no luck getting the USB to work with my Mac G5, so I'm about to try the MIDI into Mackie Traction 2. I bought it mainly for drum parts, as I have a Roger Linn RMIV LINPLUG drum plug-in in Tracktion. The Ozone looks like a good unit for what I want, if anything, it has more than I need. That is, it has a two-channel analog to digital converter to send vocal or instrument performances to your computer, which would be a great thing for those of you with laptops and recording software, like GarageBand. I'd just like to know how to get my mac to see the USB imput from this thing. Bonneville Bruce __________________ "Let us issue, 'Live Music is Better' bumper stickers."

July 12th, 2007, 03:20 PM	#12 (permalink)
Skully Friend of Leo's Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Glamorous NoHo Posts: 3,987	If you're using virtual synth plug-ins, you open both a MIDI track and an audio track. In the audio track, you open a virtual synth in the effects bin and choose the voice you want to use (horns, strings, drums -- whatever). Then you assign the output in the MIDI track to that soft synth. That's the way it works in Sonar, anyway. __________________ Myspace.com/skullysounds