Recording drums?

[Tedecaster]

While I'm pondering all the stuff that's available, let me throw another question out there.

With "simple but effective" as a criteria, how do you prefer to record a drum kit?
I'm talking a 4 or 5-piece set, not a death-metal rack set-up.

I can see where this could eat up inputs, mics, time, etc. & get way too complicated but what do you think is a happy medium?

This all figures into my hardware search.

Thanks, TD

[fezz parka]

You need to start with a LDC on a boom just a foot or two above the drummers head. Point the cardioid pattern down so that the kick drum is in the center of the pattern. Have the drummer play and move the mic if needed. Use EQ to bring out the kick (boost 1 or 2 db @ 80 -100 Hz), snare (+1 @ 1k -3k will bring the snap out but could make the cymbals harsh sounding. Use you ears.), and cymbals ( a +1 10kHz shelf boost). You'll be amazed at how full and open sounding one mike placed this way can be. Sometimes it's all you'll need.:D

Notice the position of the LDC in these pics:




There could be another in front of the kick like this pic shows:



A one or two mic setup requires a good drummer who listens, not one who just bashes.

I also wanted to add that with multiple mics (one each for snare, kick toms,overheads) you can get good separation, but with it comes the problem of leakage causing a time delay that leads to comb filtering. I've always found that it's best to start with the one mic method above. If it's lacking in the kick, add a kick mic (at the front of the kick, the single overhead mic is already getting the beater), or add a couple of room mics (414's are great for this). This makes for a full, big drum sound, especially in a semi-reflective room.

[PeteMac]

+1 on the single mic theory!

I have several times mic'ed my sons kit with just one SM57 on a stand behind the drummer and, if you can manage it, at his ear level. That means the mic is picking up pretty much what the drummer is hearing. And in the right room it can sound amazingly good.

[Tedecaster]

Thanks for the replies.

I would guess that most of my favorite recordings were done with equipment/means that would be considered modest today but with great skill.

The overhead drum mic makes sense to me when I think about it but I'm not sure I would have thought to even try it! Sounds like with even 4-in & some creative mic-ing you could get a pretty good sound & still have some control & some separation for the snare & kick.

[charlie chitlin]

Single mic is cool.
Watch out for fizzy cymbals.
Listen to the rock n' roll medly thing by Cat Mother and the All Night Newsboys.
I always figured that was one mic.

[Skully]

If you go with mutiple mics and multiple tracks, noise gates become pretty important.

My drum mic setup has gotten progressively more complicated. I now record on to six tracks -- one for bass drum, one for snare and stereo pairs for the toms and the overheads. It's improved the clarity of my drum tracks. [Note: None of the recordings on my MySpace page were done with this set-up.]

[Tim Armstrong]

I like a 4-mic approach. I put a pair of Marshall MXL 603s small diaphragm condensers on stands over the drummer's shoulders, equidistant from the snare, aimed at it (getting a nice stereo image of the whole set). Then I put an SM57 on the snare, and a CAD KBM412 mic on the kick drum.

Drummers being drummers, they usually insist on micing the toms, too. I find I don't use much of those mics in the mix though!

Cheers, Tim

[Ben Harmless]

I don't have a studio where I can do a whole lot of mic'ing of drumsets, so my stuff (which is intended to be demo-quality anyway) usually features programmed drums.

Still, I've spent hundreds, if not thousands of hours mixing live drums. In the nicest place I've worked, (1k seat roadhouse with a $1million system...) I was a huge fan of the minimal approach. If the drummer is good, and knows how to play the set as an insturment instead of eight different insturments, then you're golden. I've done whole shows with a single AKG 391 (SDC) as overhead, and a D112 on the kick. If not, you better break out the close mics, 'cause it can get ugly.

Keep in mind, however, that just because they used to do something some way "back in the day," doesn't mean that it sounds as good as something else you might do today. My family sat around the other day listening to some of my Grandfather's old '78s, and it occurred to me that someone today would probably pay thousands of dollars for the vocalist's mic, and convinve themselves that it sounded good. It didn't.

For your next excercise, mic drums in such a way that they sound amazing to the musical director, but the *^%$(&)# tap shoes on the dancers in front don't bleed in too much. I'm pretty sure that's one of Dante's levels of hell.

[fezz parka]

Originally Posted by Ben Harmless

Keep in mind, however, that just because they used to do something some way "back in the day," doesn't mean that it sounds as good as something else you might do today. My family sat around the other day listening to some of my Grandfather's old '78s, and it occurred to me that someone today would probably pay thousands of dollars for the vocalist's mic, and convinve themselves that it sounded good. It didn't.

Comparing the sound of 78's is apples and oranges. It's like comparing the sonic quality of 128kbps mp3's to DVD-A. The final step, the media you were listening on (the 78's) is where the sound went wrong. The old ribbon mic that they were recorded with (probably a RCA 44) is a holy grail mic. If things that were used "back in the day" don't sound as good as what you can do today, why then are orchestras still using the Decca Tree (the 50's) and the Blumlein technique (the 30's) and Neumann M49's and M50's? Why is an orginal Telefunken 251 one of the most sought after mics around?

Because a good sound is a good sound. FWIW, one of my least favorite mics is the SM57. It has a 2kHz bump in it that drives me nuts. I reach for the EQ every time I see one being used. Live sound reinforcement is one thing, but for the recording studio there are much better choices, mostly Royer ribbons, RE20's, SM7's, Beyer-Dynamic M500's, etc. FWIW, on Stadium Arcadium ,the first mic put up was a Sony C37 just over the left shoulder of the drummer. Three more mics were added later (another C37 to the right of the drummer, and a D112/M49 combo on the kick), but the main mic you hear on the record is that first C37.

The fastest, easiest way to get a good drum sound in the recording studio is to start with the single mic setup, get it sounding good with EQ, and add mics to taste if needed.

And, the oldest and most reliable piece of recording equipment you can get has been sewed on the sides of our heads. If it sounds good, it is good.

[fezz parka]

Here's a great quote from Bones Howe. Bones believes that microphone techniques should involve an understanding of the instrument being recorded:

. "A good example is the French horn," he says. "Most people don't know that the French horn is not supposed to miked from the bell, which faces backwards. It faces that way for a reason - it's supposed to sound like it's coming up from a distance, from the back of the orchestra. One way to approach it [when it's not part of an orchestra] is to put a sheet of plywood behind it and place the microphone in the front to catch the reflected sound. Engineers tend to focus on what a microphone sounds like, but what people often miss is what the instrument is supposed to sound like. Microphones have only gotten better, so you really can't make a mistake if you know what the instrument is supposed to sound like. Not the console, not the tape. The instrument. Go out and listen to a symphony sometime. Just remember that you're there to capture the music, not figure out some great engineering miracle."

I was lucky when I was younger to be able to watch Bones work, he really knows his stuff.

[JohnSS]

One of the more versatile condenser mic packages on the market is the CAD GXL3000, which was reviewed by Mike Molenda in Guitar Player magazine in June 2005 (I think - the issue w/Steve Vai on the cover) it has a LDC multi pattern with shock mount and (2) pencil condensers. All 3 mikes are pretty good quality (and I've used U47s, U87's and AKG 414s quite a lot in my day) and can handle vocals, acoustic guitars, wind instruments and drums.

Using the pencil condensers as overheads for stereo imaging and the LDC set back a few feet from the kick drum at near the drummer's chest level (or lower for more kick drum) is a set up similar to that used by engineer Andy Johns on John Bonham's drums.

[petebradt]

Originally Posted by Tim Armstrong

I like a 4-mic approach. I put a pair of Marshall MXL 603s small diaphragm condensers on stands over the drummer's shoulders, equidistant from the snare, aimed at it (getting a nice stereo image of the whole set). Then I put an SM57 on the snare, and a CAD KBM412 mic on the kick drum.

Drummers being drummers, they usually insist on micing the toms, too. I find I don't use much of those mics in the mix though!

Cheers, Tim

Tim, I did it this way and it's working great. I use AKG C1000Ss because I have access to them but the 603S is a great SDC, I have FOUR of them!

FOr the idiot (and when it comes to recording drums, I'm an idiot) the four-mic approach is hard to beat and give excellent results.

[Jeff Mason]

When on PA Hire, we used just three mikes. One on the Bass, one mike on Snare & Hi-Hat (on the side of the Snare upside down & facing up to the hi-hat) and one overspill.

[jackdc100]

Originally Posted by fezz parka

You need to start with a LDC on a boom just a foot or two above the drummers head. Point the cardioid pattern down so that the kick drum is in the center of the pattern. Have the drummer play and move the mic if needed. Use EQ to bring out the kick (boost 1 or 2 db @ 80 -100 Hz), snare (+1 @ 1k -3k will bring the snap out but could make the cymbals harsh sounding. Use you ears.), and cymbals ( a +1 10kHz shelf boost). You'll be amazed at how full and open sounding one mike placed this way can be. Sometimes it's all you'll need.:D

Notice the position of the LDC in these pics:




There could be another in front of the kick like this pic shows:



A one or two mic setup requires a good drummer who listens, not one who just bashes.

I also wanted to add that with multiple mics (one each for snare, kick toms,overheads) you can get good separation, but with it comes the problem of leakage causing a time delay that leads to comb filtering. I've always found that it's best to start with the one mic method above. If it's lacking in the kick, add a kick mic (at the front of the kick, the single overhead mic is already getting the beater), or add a couple of room mics (414's are great for this). This makes for a full, big drum sound, especially in a semi-reflective room.

I really like the thread. Very informative. What is a LDC though? Sorry, I am just getting into recording so some shorthand terms don't make sense to me.

[Tedecaster]

Large Diaphragm Condenser microphone.


U87Ai.jpg

[fezz parka]

For the kick, use an 8",10", or 12" speaker wired as a mic. This in combination with a dynamic inside the shell, close to the head to get the beater, = big fat kick sounds!

Wire the + & - terminals to pins 2 and 3 of an XLR through a 2 conductor shielded mic cable with the shield connected to pin 1. Plug it into your mic pre and go.

[Ben Harmless]

Originally Posted by fezz parka

Comparing the sound of 78's is apples and oranges. It's like comparing the sonic quality of 128kbps mp3's to DVD-A. The final step, the media you were listening on (the 78's) is where the sound went wrong.

This is, of course, absolutely correct. I am an ignorant youngin' who should have known better.

This is one of the reasons I'm so happy that the recording forum was added. I want and need more people to call me on all those things that I overlook or am just plain wrong about.

[fezz parka]

Oh man, you weren't wrong about anything. It was just a bad example. People do get hung up on the "old ways" (me included), and your post points that out very well. For example, people will paint with a wide brush and make statements like "Analog is better" or "Tubes are better"... And it depends on what your comparing it to. For example, a Neve 1073 is going to sound better than a cheap tube mic pre. A 24bit 88.2 kHz digital recording will be sonically better than a Portastudio.

The most important part of recording is the material and the performance of the material. If these two things are good, it doesn't matter what it's recorded or played back on.The human ear is very forgiving, if it likes what it hears, it can be a 78 or DVD-A.

[Tedecaster]

Thought I would dredge this old thread up for an update.

I posted my original question over two months ago, but finally had our first live drum session last night. This was the first time I have ever recorded drums & I put to use most of the suggestions & advice from this thread.

Maybe just dumb luck but I managed to get a really good & balanced drum sound first try!

We were working on just one song & had done bass, guitars & vocal already as scratch tracks, so the drums are the first “keepers”. I had 4 inputs, so I had a little flexibility. The drummer was using a 4-piece kit. The advice ”try to capture what the player hears” made a lot of sense to me, so I tried to keep that in mind as we played with mics. Also all those old studio photos (earlier in this thread) were in the back of my mind, seems the simpler the better.

We started with an AT 3035 LCD as an overhead (purchased on Fezz Parka's advice) over his right shoulder ( I later moved it to his left shoulder to get less cymbal). Then, to pad the LCD, I put a 57 on the snare (starting underneath but then moving it above, between the hi-hat & mounted tom). I also put a Sennheiser 421 in the kick which was laying on the dampening material.

The tinkerer in me couldn't resist trying the speaker-mic idea so I wired an XLR to 1/4” turn-around & tried a number of cabinets I had. The one that sounded best was a 12” wedge monitor. It was sitting on foam around 1.5' in front of the kick, off axis. It also picked up a lot of the mounted tom which was good.

When solo-ed , none of them are anything special, but as a group there is a really good balance with nice definition & punch. I haven't even gotten to any panning, eq, compression, reverb & I think it sounds pretty good already!

Thanks for everyone's input.

[Tim Armstrong]

Gotta love it when things work!!!!!

Cheers, Tim

[Buddaman]

I recorded a 5-piece kit in a decent room for the first time with the new (relatively) Earthworks DK25/R 3 mic set.

http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/DK25R/

It was fantastic. The fewer mics used, the less phase cancellation. Because multiple mics on a drum kit are all in different locations in space relative to each drum. The sound waves hit all the mic diaphragms at slightly different times. For example, the crack from the snare is picked up by the overheads, which are several feet away from the source, a fraction of a second AFTER it is picked up by the snare mic that is only inches away. This is subtle, but the smearing exponentially increases with each additional mic. Anyway, the kit is a KIT. Most of John Bonham's massive sounds were 1, 2 or 3 mics in a big, gnarly room. Just my take. In virtually every situation I have been in, other than uber-metal, the less mics I used, the better the drums sounded.

Buddaman

PS: if you are using a Kick/Snare/L+R Overhead setup (my usual setup), and if you have a nice maple snare, try mic'ing it a few inches off the side of the shell instead of right next to the top head, like so many people instinctively do, and you will get a great transient "crack" without the weird thud or the wire-y rattle of the underneath snare position. This will give nice accent to the snare track while the ringing tone of the snare is picked up by the overheads.

[fezz parka]

Originally Posted by Tedecaster

Thought I would dredge this old thread up for an update.

I posted my original question over two months ago, but finally had our first live drum session last night. This was the first time I have ever recorded drums & I put to use most of the suggestions & advice from this thread.

Maybe just dumb luck but I managed to get a really good & balanced drum sound first try!

We were working on just one song & had done bass, guitars & vocal already as scratch tracks, so the drums are the first “keepers”. I had 4 inputs, so I had a little flexibility. The drummer was using a 4-piece kit. The advice ”try to capture what the player hears” made a lot of sense to me, so I tried to keep that in mind as we played with mics. Also all those old studio photos (earlier in this thread) were in the back of my mind, seems the simpler the better.

We started with an AT 3035 LCD as an overhead (purchased on Fezz Parka's advice) over his right shoulder ( I later moved it to his left shoulder to get less cymbal). Then, to pad the LCD, I put a 57 on the snare (starting underneath but then moving it above, between the hi-hat & mounted tom). I also put a Sennheiser 421 in the kick which was laying on the dampening material.

The tinkerer in me couldn't resist trying the speaker-mic idea so I wired an XLR to 1/4” turn-around & tried a number of cabinets I had. The one that sounded best was a 12” wedge monitor. It was sitting on foam around 1.5' in front of the kick, off axis. It also picked up a lot of the mounted tom which was good.

When solo-ed , none of them are anything special, but as a group there is a really good balance with nice definition & punch. I haven't even gotten to any panning, eq, compression, reverb & I think it sounds pretty good already!

Thanks for everyone's input.

Awesome!