Never-ending project sees light of day (mix content)

[woodman]

Finally got something resembling a mix on this weirdie. I was trying to find a nexus between deep-roots African spiritual and hillbilly gospel to put in a more contemporary context.

It was a chaotic project in that I changed interfaces in the middle of it, so there are tracks from both the old noisy setup and the current Saffire. I tried to kill out the noise from the early tracks, but I know ScatMan will bust me if any got in!

And, it was the first real mix I've done using the Focusrite VRM Box. It really gave me new mixing perspectives, because it was an exercise in how many ways you can split a hair — which the best mixers can do by instinct on the fly. So I feel like I've graduated from Duh 101 to Duh 201.

This one was strictly a one-man show ... my bass bud Tom has been gigging with multiple acts and ain't had time to breathe, and my songbird wife wasn't much interested in this one. But it was just as well, because I had specific parts I wanted that would take a long time to teach. ... Not sayin' they couldn't eventually end up on the track, but I wanted to at least get a complete version down, even though my bass-playing is pretty bad.

The bass is my main concern in the mix, and I'm not sure the organ's setting right. I'm attempting to get a "mountain church" ambience, but y'all let me know if I'm overdoing it. It's supposed to be rustic, but if you hear slop, sing out!

A Restless Soul (In a Fearsome Land)

[backalleyblues]

Not bad, Woodman, not bad!

The bass needs to come up, especially in the fundamental (40-80hz) it did sound kinda thin through my rig... liked the organ, maybe a db or 2 here and there, but it seems ok...

You might also want to check your vocal, I thought I heard some distortion on the louder passages... loved the twang guitar!!

Franc Robert

[SilentCityRob]

Some very nice textures in this, sounding good.

I'm also hearing distortion on the louder vocals at points. Doesn't sound like digital clippling so I'm assuming the mic preamp might of been a little too hot.

Overall the source sounds are good. I think the vocals could do with coming down slightly and I'd like to hear a little more organ, but that's just me! If you aren't using it already, a little parallel compression on both the vocals/organ will help to get them sitting a little better. If you are using it, I'd say be a bit more aggressive with it!

Rob

[peteycaster]

Another great song! You must be getting close to a CD's worth by now although with the new interface you probably don't like the older stuff anymore?

The bass did seem a little "boomy" on my set up (couldn't tell you which frequencies) but I felt maybe a conflict with the vocal as you have a very deep voice. Playing was fine by the way. Maybe a sweep with a narrow Q while the vocals are playing might identify the culprit but then again that could just be my speakers.

The balance of everthing else seemed good although I did notice the distortion on the vocal the others mentioned, especially toward the end. The organ sounded ok but if you aren't sure maybe more verb and drop it a db or two.

Overall a good song with some nice effects to add to the feel. I guess that means a good production!

Good to hear you're finding the VRM useful. A local store here has them for $105AUD so I think I'm gonna jump. Just have to find time to do some recording now.

[woodman]

Originally Posted by backalleyblues

The bass needs to come up, especially in the fundamental (40-80hz) it did sound kinda thin through my rig...

Originally Posted by peteycaster

The bass did seem a little "boomy" on my set up (couldn't tell you which frequencies) but I felt maybe a conflict with the vocal as you have a very deep voice.

That's the exact anomaly I was rasslin' with ... on some rigs it sounded wimpy; on others it was booming in the lows. Maybe I'll save as a new song file, ditch all EQ and start over. I might have been "overthinking" it ... my new sonic environment was a little disorienting after several years of being well-accustomed to the old setup. May take a while to home in on the secure "ground zero" comfort zone.

Originally Posted by SilentCityRob

Some very nice textures in this, sounding good.

I'm also hearing distortion on the louder vocals at points. Doesn't sound like digital clippling so I'm assuming the mic preamp might of been a little too hot.

Overall the source sounds are good. I think the vocals could do with coming down slightly and I'd like to hear a little more organ, but that's just me! If you aren't using it already, a little parallel compression on both the vocals/organ will help to get them sitting a little better. If you are using it, I'd say be a bit more aggressive with it!

Guess it's unanimous on the vocal distortion! Yeah, I was hitting the Brick preamp a little too hard — tube overdrive is fine for guitar, but not so much on vocals. I knew the track was flawed but hoped to salvage it because I liked the feel. ... Hadn't thought of parallel compression, but will definitely try it, having had some luck with it in the past. Retracking the vocal isn't out of the question, though.

I'm gonna keep pecking away at it and will eventually repost ... appreciate the input, guys.

[magicguitar]

Nice song Woodman! Glad you like the VRM box, that is certainly a very useful tool! I have too much ear damage to make any comments... it all sounds GREAT to me. Nice tune and a good melody.

[Geoff738]

Another good'un Woody!

I too hear a few crispy vocals.

I'm hearing a pop after "dawn" about 3:10 in and another during "soul" in the next line.

As for the bass. It's a pretty round kinda tone. Which works for the track, but makes it hard to sit. Systems that don't have a lot of bass will find it bass shy; those with ample bass may find it boomy. A couple possible avenues of exploration. Compress the bass track (maybe try a couple or even three comps on it - none of them individually doing more than a few dbs of gain reduction. To get the bass to cut through a little more, and to be heard better on bass-shy systems, try adding some mids - I tend to like @ 750 or 800 as a starting point. And/or add a little growl (bass amp sim/ fuzz - whatever works). Possibly in the main bass track, but maybe better as a parallel track.

Also, if you have a comp on things like the stereo buss, you could try high passing the feed to the comp so the low bass (and kick drum) frequencies are allowed to pass through without setting the compressor in motion. (Kinda a two band compressor where one band - the lows - are off).

Cheers,
Geoff

[lboorse2]

Great sounding mix and a great track no less. I think anything I could point out is just nit-picking. Modern commercial recordings are too perfect if you ask me. Yours sounds more real. Dig it.

[woodman]

Some great specifics, Geoff — I'm working on the bass now, so I'll try them out. Already put a little bump at ~800, which gives it a bit more muscle on my small cheap monitors. The idea of combining comps never occurred to me but is certainly worth experimenting with. ... I'm having trouble wrapping my head around this, though:

Originally Posted by Geoff738

Also, if you have a comp on things like the stereo buss, you could try high passing the feed to the comp so the low bass (and kick drum) frequencies are allowed to pass through without setting the compressor in motion. (Kinda a two band compressor where one band - the lows - are off).

How exactly would one go about this?

[chulaivet1966]

I'll chime in....

I think it's a pretty good mix.

Some of the lyrics....although not specific and not knowing your exact intent, I can easily equate them to my time 'in a fearsome land' far away and long ago.

Well done...carry on....

[spauldingrules]

I thought the bass in the mix was perfect. Of course, I listened to it before I read anything... which undoubtedly affects how I hear things (when I'm listening to the bass instead of the song).

[backalleyblues]

Just to clarify on my rig, I'm using an old pair of Tannoy PBM 6.5's driven by my old Yamaha receiver (1978)... it certainly can be bass-shy, but I'm used to that aspect... it was even more bass-shy than usual...

Looking forward to hearing v.2!!! It's a cool tune!!!

Franc Robert

[woodman]

Originally Posted by backalleyblues

Just to clarify on my rig, I'm using an old pair of Tannoy PBM 6.5's driven by my old Yamaha receiver (1978)... it certainly can be bass-shy, but I'm used to that aspect... it was even more bass-shy than usual...

Worked on it a long time ... boosted a tad at 120 where the meat of the bass is, started a sharp roll-off at 80 to reduce boom, scooped out mud to made room for the vox at 300 per Petey's suggestion, boosted a notch at 800 for translation on smaller speakers. Geoff's twin compressor trick tightened it up considerably.

Also tried Rob's idea of parallel comp on vox and organ with good results ... it brought the organ up into the mix without being intrusive and enabled me to tuck the lead vocal back into the mix a little. ... Cleaned up the pops, tweaked here and there. I'll probably listen in the morning with fresh ears before posting, but it's coming along.

Chulai, Magicguitar and lboorse, thanx for the kind words! (Spaulding, I suspect your system must have a low-end sweet spot right where mine does.) ... Appreciate all the input, guys.

[Telenator]

I'm diggin the vibe Woodman. It has sort of a somber Johnny Cash feel to it. Very cool.

I don't know if singing the song in a different key would work but you might want to try that. The key is not particularly good for your voice. It sounds like you're right on a transitional cusp in some of the passages. I can tell you have the power to really deliver this one but it sounds like it's just not in your ideal key.

Love the song though!

[woodman]

Here's the result of yesterday's work plus a little touching up this morning. Let me know if y'all think I'm on the right track. It was tricky getting the parallel tracks blended and balanced, but it's improved as far as I can hear. Who knows, maybe it could become the geezer national anthem!

A Restless Soul (In a Fearsome Land)

Originally Posted by Telenator

I don't know if singing the song in a different key would work but you might want to try that. The key is not particularly good for your voice. It sounds like you're right on a transitional cusp in some of the passages. I can tell you have the power to really deliver this one but it sounds like it's just not in your ideal key.

Appreciate the thumbs-up on the tune, 'Nator ... that's really the main thing for me. Vocally, I see it not an issue of range, but the fact that (let's face it) I'm not that great a singer. For over 40 years, I was a "shouter," and it's only been in the last couple of years I've worked at developing the baritone range as a real singer — nailing the note without sliding into it, sustaining it with controlled vibrato, and ending it without tailing sharp or flat. As you can hear, I've got a ways to go!

[Telenator]

Understood. I can hear in your voice that you would really open up nicely in a higher key but that might kill the sullen vibe of the song. You'll notice I don't post clips of my singing, LOL.

If I sang by the window, you'd probably help me out!

Love the tune.

[klasaine]

I got no opinion on the mix (well maybe one - later though).
But I'll tell ya something, that line - "a young man's dreams, through an old mans eyes" - friggin' outstanding! Once I heard that lyric I stopped caring about the bass or whatever - now it's about the song.
There's a war movie out there or some coming of age flick that is screaming for this song. Talk to those folks that licensed your other tune.

*Mix point - IMO the vox are a little hot and not sitting w/in the song.
As I've mentioned before, mix a version with just BIG TWANGY guitar doing the melody - just to have.

[SilentCityRob]

Sounding really good Woodman! The organ's sitting very nicely now!

For this style of music, the parallel comp on the vocals is slightly too compressed for me. It sits fairly well in the choruses, but the verses have a lost a little of the dynamic. A longer release time on the heavy compression channel (anywhere from 700ms-1500ms as a starting point), will give a less punchy and more natural sound, whilst still keeping the nice depth you have going on there. Shorter release times are a lot more punchy but can sound a little unnatural, plus have the side-effect of bringing out the "room" sound usually more than is desired.

I also noticed on a few of the crash hits, you can hear a compressor "sucking" them away (3.31 as an example). Not sure if this would be compression you've added to the overhead/ambient drum mics or overall mix compression/limiting, but maybe try a lower ratio and softer knee.

Keep at it, mixing's tough, but very rewarding when it comes together!

Rob

[woodman]

Originally Posted by SilentCityRob

Sounding really good Woodman! The organ's sitting very nicely now!

For this style of music, the parallel comp on the vocals is slightly too compressed for me. It sits fairly well in the choruses, but the verses have a lost a little of the dynamic. A longer release time on the heavy compression channel (anywhere from 700ms-1500ms as a starting point), will give a less punchy and more natural sound, whilst still keeping the nice depth you have going on there. Shorter release times are a lot more punchy but can sound a little unnatural, plus have the side-effect of bringing out the "room" sound usually more than is desired.

I also noticed on a few of the crash hits, you can hear a compressor "sucking" them away (3.31 as an example). Not sure if this would be compression you've added to the overhead/ambient drum mics or overall mix compression/limiting, but maybe try a lower ratio and softer knee.

Keep at it, mixing's tough, but very rewarding when it comes together!

"Tough" might be too kind a word ... I know exactly what I want to hear in my head, but my engineering skills are primitive, plus being half-deaf from a real war and decades of bar wars. So when you point out the parallel comp conundrum on the vocal, I cue it up and immediately hear exactly what you're talking about. Excess parallel in the verses mushes out the lyrics and generally muddies the mix. In the chorus, it has the background vocals to push against, so it's not as overbearing. But the current level of parallel overall pushes the vox to far out in front of the mix. Lesson learned!

Speaking of the BGV, they're mixed sort of like another harmony instrument or section. I had to tie myself to the mast to keep from bringing them up to an Appalachian harmony level. ... As for the lead vocal, automation would solve lots of problems — or, I could take the verses and choruses each onto its own track, and tweak the reverb sends accordingly. Hmmm ....

The drums though — these are fake (EZD), but you already knew that. The cymbals are their weakest link. ... There's some comp on the fake room mike, but not on the overheads, and also comp across the output. I'll tinker with that because, lord knows, you don't wanna make EZD cymbals sound worse!

[woodman]

Originally Posted by klasaine

I got no opinion on the mix (well maybe one - later though).
But I'll tell ya something, that line - "a young man's dreams, through an old mans eyes" - friggin' outstanding! Once I heard that lyric I stopped caring about the bass or whatever - now it's about the song.
There's a war movie out there or some coming of age flick that is screaming for this song. Talk to those folks that licensed your other tune.

*Mix point - IMO the vox are a little hot and not sitting w/in the song.
As I've mentioned before, mix a version with just BIG TWANGY guitar doing the melody - just to have.

Ken, that means a lot to me. If you can grab 'em with the song, the rest is mop-up. Your encouragement and guidance on the film song was invaluable, as it is on this one. I'd love to hear it in a movie about a Vietnam vet, knowing now that life is finite, looking back at the war and the rock 'n' roll glory days, putting it all in perspective ... hell, maybe I should write the screenplay!

Mixwise: Presuming you heard the second posted version (8:55 PST), I'd parallel compressed the vocal to an excessive degree ... I think I can rein in the lead vox by adjusting that (see post above).

Many thanks!