Guitar amp level in studio

[Larry F]

What are some opinions, guidelines, issues of taste, etc. when a guitarist records a track alone in a studio? I'm going to be recording a guitar part for a friend's song. He sent me a file of a rough mix of acoustic guitar, bass, drums, and vocals. I have carte blanche on adding electric guitar. He wants some solo improv and says that I can add anything else.

Usually when I record with blues backing tracks for my own satisfaction, the amp level is pretty low, probably what you'd call bedroom level. I do this when practicing to avoid getting my ears ringing, which can happen at louder levels. Generally, though, the recorded sound is pretty flat, not helped by carpeting on my floor. I will start experimenting tomorrow, first with volume level. I think that playing the amp at a loudness level in the studio that would be able to blend with live drums, if they were present. Is that the kind of level guitarists use when tracking with a backing track in a studio?

Another consideration is placing the speaker and mic downstairs on a wooden floor. I could try using an ABY splitter and two amps, one upstairs, and one downstairs.

I guess I am answering my own question by planning to experiment and see what I like. But I still am curious as to how the pros do it. Ken, if you read this, haven't you been doing something like this where you record you part at home?

As I said, I understand that it is all about taste and personal preference. I am just curious about how this kind of thing is handled by the pros.

[fezz parka]

I usually have the amp and mics in another room and monitor through phones. I use two mics, a 57 @the edge of the cone and an LDC about 3 feet away. This track was two LDC's, on at the front, one on the back, equidistant from the speakers. I flipped the phase on the rear mic. This is with the amp wide open.

Red Letter Blues

[Larry F]

I can't tell you how much I liked this. I am pretty picky about solo playing in others (well, in myself, too) but you kept me completely engaged on so many levels. The sound was very good, too. I'll give something like this a try. Have you had much luck with two amps?

[fezz parka]

Sure. But there's nothing like a good amp in a good sounding room. You'll know it when you hear it coming back at you.

That whole track was about emotion: screaming, crying, anguish, blubbering.

[The Quasar-Kid]

I recorded a solo for a friends record (many years ago) and I used a 50 watt JCM800 pretty much turned all the way up - My Les Paul was going into feedback perfectly
(I've never even played that loud on stage)
The engineer had 2 mics (both SM57's) one about 20 feet away and one right on the speaker driver cone

Took me about a half hour to calm down - I was so excited

[fezz parka]

This one is just my El Grande (Supro Spectator). Single LDC in a very live room:

Carmelita

[grinchmonkey]

I would say err on the side of louder rather than softer if you are using tube amps. Get those things growling. Unless of course you are going for a super clean sound with no grit, then you may not want to crank it. I prefer a little grit on even my "clean" stuff for leads.

[ScatMan]

I'll chime in:

If you're just close-micing, room doesn't matter a hill o' beans. Mic and placement does though. When you start setting mics away from the amp's speaker.. mic, placement AND room does..

..but nothing trumps performance..

Originally Posted by Larry F

..I will start experimenting tomorrow, first with volume level. I think that playing the amp at a loudness level in the studio that would be able to blend with live drums, if they were present. Is that the kind of level guitarists use when tracking with a backing track in a studio..

The volume level doesn't matter if all you're doing is getting louder. It's not a factor.

If driving your amp louder starts creating a different sound like tube saturation, then yeah, it's a factor.

Think about those guys cranking and recording their 5W amps into tube saturation. No way are they able to compete with the volume level of drums in a live environment..but they ain't in a live environment..they're in a studio environment where 5W amps with whatever SPLs can be made to work with live drum's SPLs.

[The Quasar-Kid]

Originally Posted by ScatMan

I'll chime in:

If you're just close-micing, room doesn't matter a hill o' beans. Mic and placement does though. When you start setting mics away from the amp's speaker.. mic, placement AND room does..

..but nothing trumps performance..



The volume level doesn't matter if all you're doing is getting louder. It's not a factor.

If driving your amp louder starts creating a different sound like tube saturation, then yeah, it's a factor.

Think about those guys cranking and recording their 5W amps into tube saturation. No way are they able to compete with the volume level of drums in a live environment..but they ain't in a live environment..they're in a studio environment where 5W amps with whatever SPLs can be made to work with live drum's SPLs.

Good Point..!!!

[woodman]

Totally agree with Scat on this one — sometimes louder is just louder. I once did a session as second guitarist behind a guy who insisted he could get "his" sound ONLY with two 100-watt Mesa Boogies cranked hard. Even though they were in an amp isolation closet, the bleed into the room put the other players on edge. His tone? Only fair.

My suggestion would echo others who've said isolate the amp and use a sweet amp at a volume that produces sweet tone, disregarding the drummer's volume.

[PinewoodRo]

"I usually have the amp and mics in another room and monitor through phones. I use two mics, a 57 @the edge of the cone and an LDC about 3 feet away."

+1 This is pretty standard practice in the studios I've worked in. Experiment with the Large Diaphragm Condenser to get the position - if it sounds thin try flipping the phase (sometimes called 'invert' on computer DAWs) As long as it's loud enough to get a good level from the SM57, then the rest is all about tone.

[klasaine]

Totally depends on the song. If it needs to be rockin' I tend to turn up with my amp in another room or closet. In a perfect world I like my amps to 'feel' good (a little bit of volume and natural compression) so I can play my best. This isn't always an option though.
Why would use two amps? Wouldn't you 'monitor' with headphones?
If another room isn't an option I suggest getting a pair (or two) of these ... http://www.extremeheadphones.com/pro...-29-headphones

Personally I prefer a room with some type of ambience. If it's a wood floor that's raised (crawl space, basement or 1st story underneath) you 'may' get some boominess - put a thick phone book under the amp - de-couple it from the floor. Start in the middle of the room. If something sounds weird move the amp closer to a wall or corner. There's almost infinite variables with a room in a house.

I'll disagree that close mic'ing negates the room though.
'If' the room does have some ambience and you're playing a little loud(?) - you will get some ambient reflections back to the mic - even a 57 on the grill. This can be good or bad depending on what you're looking for sound wise.

*If possible I'd put two mics on the speaker. Dynamic up close, Condensor 5" to 18" back. Experiment with placement. 1/4" will make a difference, especially on the close mic.

[backalleyblues]

I tend to slightly disagree about louder just being louder, a twin sounds very different on 1 vs. 3 on the volume dial... at 3, the speaker cones are finally getting really moving, and the tone opens up some, though it's still squeaky clean... 1 can sounds kinda constipated...

Larry, I wouldn't worry about how loud or what sound too much until you're actually in the studio, it's going to sound completely different in there than other environments, and you'll adjust accordingly... and don' be afraid of being loud, it kinda makes it easier for the engineer (to a point) a good strong, toneful signal is what the engineer needs...

Enjoy your time in the studio!

Franc Robert

[kiwi blue]

While isolating the amp in another room is often necessary to save your ears at high volume, there's another school of thought - being in the same room with the amp gets the guitar vibrating and helps it "sing" a little more because the soundwaves from a loud amp set off sympathetic resonance in the guitar.

I've had good results doing that, with an amp turned up loud, but picking very gently. It sets off a clean but singing tone. Try it. As always it all depends what sound you want for the particular song of course.

If I'm singing and laying down electric guitar together live in the studio the amp pretty well has to go into another room unless it's very quiet and you don't intend to go back and punch in any vocal or guitar patch-ups. (Otherwise you get a lot of bleed in both mics, which creates a ghosting effect if your patch-up isn't exactly in synch with the error you're trying to fix.) But that's not an issue when overdubbing a guitar track only as in this case.

[soundchaser59]

Originally Posted by fezz parka

This track was two LDC's, on at the front, one on the back, equidistant from the speakers.

Sounds great.

When you are determining distance from the speakers, what is your point of reference? The front mic might be distance from the grill? Or distance from the cone? From the dustcap?

But then how are you placing the rear mic? Distance from the magnet cover?

I want to try this front+rear mics thing again, just want to avoid any chance of phasing issues. I did a recording years ago this way, when I didn't realize what I was doing, and I think I just got lucky. It has always been my favorite recorded guitar sound that I did in my basement. But now I have different cabs, different mics, and no recollection of how I did it.

[64Strat]

When I record guitar, it is 95% of the time, mic'ed. (I've DI'ed a few times) When I'm having a live mic in the studio, I monitor through headpones, therefore, I can have the amp at any loudness I need to achieve the tone I desire. I have a number of different amps for different sounds, so I have not used any pedals yet. I am careful to be sure I have the right amount of distortion (if this is the sound I want) on the original track though and I test for this, because once it's there, I can't remove the distortion once I print it. Clean guitar tracks are much easier, if the EQ is in the right ballpark. I've mainly just been recording guitar with a single EV Nd-468 dynamic mic, aimed at mid cone and about 30* off axis. Everyone seems to like the recorded guitar sound I get, so I've been sticking with it. For the high wattage amps, I have 3 different attenuators I use to knock down some of the SPL but that is mostly for the benefit of my wife, pets and neighbors.

[steveneddy]

Here's my .02 on this subject.

I want to preface this by stating that these are my opinions - some of which are shared - others not - and I merely state this as not intending to start a flame war over this is better than that.

That being said -

Home recording - guitars - three really good methods come to mind which I have had various success with over the years.

Tube amps sound great - if they are turned up. But how to get a good sound from a cranked tube amp? Use a small - 5-8 watt tube amp - crank it up - it isn't THAT loud relative to your Twin you were about to twist - and close mic-ing will produce a wonderful, compressed guitar tone.

I amp building an enclosed cab for live sound AND recording. An isolation box actually. Speaker and mic on the inside enclosed under an acoustically insulated cover - so the guitar player can turn it UP - have a mic on the speaker - without tearing the paint off of the walls - or losing your hearing. In a live sound situation this is a preferred method of getting great guitar tone without blowing the audience away. Either run your monitor mix through in ears, a separate monitor wedge just for your guitar, or mix your guitar in with the regular monitor mix. This makes it easy to get "your sound" without deafening anyone.

Speaker attenuator. Either one of Palmer's products - there are a few to choose from here to get this job done.
I use a Weber MASS for this job. 100 watt model - my amp is a 40 watt HRDIII that actually puts out 48 watts clean - and I also have a HRDeville with a 60 watt output - the MASS has a way to attenuate your speaker level, allowing you to really drive the amp, and it has a line out with three way EQ and level control.
In essence you plug your speaker output into the MASS, then the MASS into your speaker cab. Dial down the volume on the MASS to the speaker, run your line out source to the board.
Or - a combination of MASS unattenuated - speaker in the iso box mic-ed up - line out to the board. The sound engineer has a speaker and direct line from the amp - two sounds that can be combined to fatten up the sound a little. Maybe effect the line in sound and leave the speaker sound uneffected.
The Palmer PDI-09 does a really good job of sending your guitar direct signal to the board - but there is no attenuation. But is is so small that you can throw it in your gig bag or mount it to the interior of the amp. Lots of guys I work with use this solution in small combo amps in smaller clubs.

My favorite solution is the small amp close mic-ed - this really does sound very good.

I recently did ten dates with an 8 watt tube amp - we mic-ed it close and ran it through the monitors. Stage volume was way reduced - it sounded HUGE through FOH - and I didn't kill myself loading in and out a monster rig.

- Hope this helped - Cheers

[klasaine]

Originally Posted by steveneddy

Here's my .02 on this subject.

I want to preface this by stating that these are my opinions - some of which are shared - others not - and I merely state this as not intending to start a flame war over this is better than that.

And an excellent .02 it is! I wouldn't worry about a flame war - especially here (hear) at the recording forum.

I'll concur that if one is going to be doing regular recording in a non-dedicated recording space i.e., a living room, etc. it is a good idea to either use an iso box or some type of speaker emulator/load box. I use a Sequis motherload ... http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/jul0...les/sequis.htm and I have used (as well as built myself a long time ago - it's gone now though) an iso box with a mic inside. A real amp in a room is best but sometimes it's not an option.

[Nick Fanis]

I think that playing the amp at a loudness level in the studio that would be able to blend with live drums, if they were present. Is that the kind of level guitarists use when tracking with a backing track in a studio?

There is no set rule.

It depends on what sound you like and HOW you want to get it.

When I record CLEAN tones I always set the amp at "comfortable" levels .I read somewhere that all the great soul tunes (Stax-Motown etc ) that have some of the best clean tones ever recorded where done at low volume ,so according to the WATTAGE of the amp I find the sweet spot where it sounds really nice and CLEAN and it does not distort the MICROPHONE (more on that later) on most tube amps this spot is at around "2" or "3" (you don't need more volume than that if a great clean tone is what you are looking for and especially if you are using many effects like delay and modulation)

Lately I have discovered the...beauty of the CLEAN tone of smaller amps at LOW volume ( my favorite clean tones amp is a Marshall 1974x set at "1,5") for some reason SMALL tube amps (like Fender Tweed Deluxes,VOX AC15s,small Marshalls like the 1974x,small Doctor Z amps like the GHIA or Mazz 18) sound (and record) warmer,fuller and....better that the large "high headroom" amps (TR type) I've been using for ages to record clean tones.

For overdriven tones there are 2 different approaches:

- you either use a small tube amp and turn it all the way amp to get that old scholl type of overdrive (I almost never use this approach since I usually produce and record more modern stuff)

you have to be really carefull not to DISTORT the microphone if your amp level is very high.

or

-you use again a nice CLEAN tube amp at sensible levels (maybe a bit louder than on the "clean" method I described above) and use pedals to get your dirty sounds this works really good with distortion and fuzz...

there is also the "already overdriven amp" + dirt/boost pedals that might also work depending on the situation.

as far as microphones go,personally I hate room miking w/ a vengeance ...I always mic my amps with 2 microphones (one ribbon or LDC and one dynamic) about 2-3 inches away from the grill with each mic pointing between the center of the speaker and the start of the cone (both mics are at equal distance from the grill to avoid phase problems).

[Sine Waver]

Some great stuff in here but to the OP, Id also say try different Mic techniques as well, Stereo miking , ORTF, MS Stereo , stuff like that might help you get a nice happy sound mate.