Recording an amp/SM57 Ooomph loss

[satchmo72]

Hey all, new to the tele board, I just bought my first after being an RG guy. The tele has really changed my writing style in a good way, so much so that I came up with a great song 30 minutes after starting to fiddle around with it.

Now I am recording that tune and having some "issues" with recording my JSX combo and my tele.

My setup is Amp>SM57 (tried both on or off axis)>UB802 mixer>Maudio Delta 2496 card>ACID.

The amp itself sounds incredible but once I record it, it loses the grit and growl.

Now this could be because I am using some small Maudio 3" powered monitors for playback and I have not taken the recording for a car test.

It just seems like I lose so much signal and definition from my setup.

Could it be my UB802? Could speakers be that much of a difference?

Ideas? Are my expectations too high. Up until this point, I used a POD Xt to record.

Thanks,

Jeff

[Teleglide]

I'd try experimenting with mic placement a little more. How far is the mic from the amp? I usually wind up off axis 3 or 4 inches from the grill cloth. I find if I lower the mic (or even point it down a little) I get more low end. Too much midrange - I usually move the mic further away or more on-axis. Too thin - I usually move the mic closer to the grill cloth or more off-axis.

Once I recorded a track that everyone thought sounded good - then I noticed that someone had bumped the mic (SM57) and it was was pointing straight up towards the ceiling!

If the room you're recording in sounds good you might try putting the mic where your ear is when you listen to the amp - probably about 6 feet back and 5 feet up.

Hope this helps. I'm no expert, but I've been pleased with my 5E3, a Tele and an SM57 in the studio.

[Del Pickup]

I'm no recording expert but, from what you've told us, there's potential for all sorts of loss in signal given the fairly long chain you've set up to record the amp. The small monitors won't help either I suspect.

But, as teleglide suggests, try different mic placements to see whether that helps in any way before looking at other links in the recording chain.

I had a problem with recording my amp tone a couple of weeks ago. The tone I was hearing in the room ended up as a rather fizzy and thin tone on the recording. I repositioned the mic and that was the problem solved.

[Ben Harmless]

+1 on Teleglide's words.

Were you getting a recorded tone that you liked with that mic and amp before you got the Tele?

Close mic'ing is always a weird experience until you have some recording time under your belt. The reason is that you're very used to the way the amp sounds in whatever room you've got, and a large portion of that sound is coming from the room reflections, which occur at very different frequencies in different rooms. The close mic pretty much captures what's coming out of the amp, and nothing more.

In a live setting, the single close mic often works fine, because the guitar tone is interacting with the room again, only this time it's coming out of more speakers. In a recording, things are different.

All that is why a lot of people find a room in which the amp sounds really good, and then place a second mic some distance away from the amp, mixing it with the close mic. At work, where I mix and record live shows for broadcast, we've got a room mic about 25 feet from the stage that picks up both the sound from the stage, and the reflections (and there are many) from the room. I was shocked the first time I mixed a full live broadcast, at how much of the room mic I used in the mix to get it sounding like a real band again.

Of course, that room sound is what people use reverb for too. Give that a try. Very subtle reverb that's got the highs rolled off some can really make a tone sound fuller.

Lastly, one of the mantras to live by is to never judge a tone until you hear it in a mix. I've worked with a lot of metal bands that dial in their guitar tones in their bedrooms. They scoop the hell out of the mids and boost those lows and highs. The problem is, they're trying to sound like a whole band by themselves. When they hit the stage or the studio, those tones vanish like a fart in the wind.

Lastly, performance. Being consistent is critical. Being able to critique ones own performance is as good as gold. Sloppy playing will sound out of time, and give you the impression of bad tone. When's the last time you heard a terrible guitar player with great tone?

Even laster, I'm not familiar with the mixer you mentioned, but most affordable mixers out there won't immediately kill your tone. Make sure you're using the best gain staging you can though. Set the mixer output to zero, then crank up the mic pre until the input to your sound card is showing your highest peaks at between -6 and -12. That should help you get the most out of your gear.

My general recipe for a big sound is:
-A darn good guitar into a darn good amp
-A consistent guitar player
-Multiple mics, mixed to taste, worrying about phase issues if they sound bad
-Multiple tracks for rhythm guitars - not too many though, or you'll start to sound overcompressed and boring.

Bottom line, if the guitar and amp really do sound good, they can be recorded that way.

[satchmo72]

Thanks tele!! The idea of recording at length from the amp has crossed my mind but I only have the SM57, I guess I should try it anyway. Sounds real good right about the spot you mentioned. I guess I should figure out a way to headphones thru the UB802 and just sit in front or have the wife move the mic around until I hear what I want.

Del, you mention the long chain. What would be shorter? Do I have items I dont need?

Jeff

[octatonic]

Mixer and Soundcard are less than stellar in terms of reproduction.

The fact of the matter is to get a truly great guitar sound you need to have all your ducks in a row- great player into great amp with a good mic, nice preamp, decent converters.
If you have all that then guitars are pretty easy to record well.

You can mess around with mic placement though.
1/2 an inch can make a huge tonal difference.

It helps to have an assistant (or a friend) on hand to move the mic around 1/2 an inch at a time while you are in the control room (or wherever).
I usually spend about 1/2 an hour moving mics around until I get a tone I want- this is for a commercial recording though, if I am doing a demo for myself then I am less particular.
Only a couple of times in 20 odd years of recording have i managed to get a god sound by sticking a mic in front of an amp without a bit of work.

If you are looking for a good preamp for guitar recording then I would look at the following options, arranged in terms of budget.

1. M Audio Octane. Really good for the money. $600 for 8 channels.

2. API 512c. Under a grand, excellent warm sounding preamps, used on a lot on commercial recordings. Good for other uses (vocals, bass, snare).

3. A Designs Pacifica. One of the best preamps around the $2k mark for 2 channels.

4. Groove Tubes Vipre. My favourite, I own two of them.
Incredibly detailed and flexible sounding preamp, huge sound, stacks well.
Downside.. $3k each channel.

In terms of converters- apogee do some great products from the cheaper end to the high end, it is all consistently good, to great.
Otherwise, M Audio Profire 610 is nice, and have some Octane preamp technology within.
Highly recommended.

[Frontier9]

While your equipment isn't pro-grade, it should be more than sufficient to capture "grit and growl" or whatever else you throw at it. You don't have to spend $600 to $3000 to get a sound that you're pleased with. People are doing it every day with consumer-grade equipment.

Like most people have stated, play around with the placement of your mic and the placement of your amp within your space. You could have it in a spot where you are getting some sound cancellation in some of the crucial frequencies that are needed for the sound you are shooting for. Maybe move the amp over to where you are sitting - that might be the sweet spot of your room. Or try putting the amp in a corner of the room with the speaker(s) facing the walls and put your mic in there. Play around, move around, you'll get it - and when you do, take notes and lay down some tape on the floor to mark where you put your mic and amp.

[fezz parka]

Two mics. LDC and 57. Close mic wih the 57, use the LDC in the room. And use your ears.

[satchmo72]

Thanks for all the ideas guys.

I am pretty much stuck with amp placements but like the idea of turning it around and sticking a mic in between the amp and wall. I am also stuck with the equipment I have now.

I would like to try the LDC idea, gotta wait for some extra music cash for that.

You guys are right about the tone in the mix. I asked a freind who just recorded their first album not too long ago where he put his mic, he said he was off axis, bottom left corner, pointing away from cone. With a little fiddling, that position was the best I have heard yet in getting the true sound that I was hearing a few feet back.

I think I am going to spend a whole evening just trying every possible combination of placement so I will have some reference to what does what.

Thanks for all the replies. I am going to reread them all again, try and digest.

Jeff

[Ben Harmless]

If you're gonna do the wall, make sure you vary the distance if at first it isn't too your liking. Remember that sound typically travels 1.12 feet per ms at sea level, so two feet away from the wall is going to be only about 4ms before the reflected sound hits the mic, which may only result in phase problems.

[Del Pickup]

Satchmo,

As I said before, I'm no expert on recording so I can't say whether you could do without any of the gear you mention. It just struck me that there seemed to be a lot of things between the amp and the final sound that ends up on the recording! But it may well be that you need everything in there.

I've always found that less is more when it comes to recording - every connection in the chain is a possible source of loss on signal quality.

[Geoff738]

A couple things.

Occasionally a 57 will meet a preamp that it doesn't really get on with that well. That cold be happening here - but I doubt it.

My guess is that the room is coloring your perception of what the amp sounds like compared to what it actually sounds like where the mic is. Think about it - a close mic on a guitar amp is within a few inches of the speaker. How many times have you stuck your ear down there? If you were to try it, you might be surprised at what's coming out.

The suggestions to move the mic around in small increments are good. Try moving the amp too.

If it's on a hard floor like concrete or tile, try sticking a carpet under it or moving it up on a chair. Move it to a different place in the room. It'll likely sound more bassy if you have its back close to a wall (moreso if its in a corner). And listen to how the changes affect the sound both in the room, and when recorded. If your amp has more than one speaker, try both of them - one might sound better than the other.

Good luck with it,
Geoff

[fezz parka]

I use these LDC's: MCA SP1. Great bang for the buck!

[Astro1176]

I agree with many of the comments before. 1 thing I haven't mnoticed mentioned above was my experience from a friend. He got some SM57s and was telling me how much he hated them and couldn't get a sound he liked, and I suggested things and they never worked. Anyway, eventually we figured out the problem: they were cheap fake copies. Man they looked good, in fact comparing the outsides you would suspect the=at if anything, the real one was less well made. But they sounded nothing like a SM57, had a nasty plasticy sound and nasal qualit, and an almost omni polar pattern. Shure confirmed them as fake and I think swapped them for real 57's in thanks for helping them track down fraudsters.

Anyway the bottom line - where did you get the 57 from and are you sure its Shure?

[Donnie55]

Ben and Octatonic both hit on something I swear by, mic placement. Others mentioned it,, but they brought up a great point. By rotating the mic around the speaker , you will find the Sweet Spot all speakers have one. Granted the very small speakers dont count in this theory. And you got to have some help because you need to hear it while its slowly being rotated. I do this every time I record an electric guitar. One more thing ribbon mic`s record guitar cabs really really good. Cad makes one Triton 7000 a lot of people have started using these with excellent results. Me included.

www.myspace.com/redtele2

[satchmo72]

I think this statement is very true. I like the room sound but the closer I get to the speaker, the less full it is. I may pick up one of those SP1's and do both the close mic and room mic and see.

Originally Posted by Geoff738

A couple things.


My guess is that the room is coloring your perception of what the amp sounds like compared to what it actually sounds like where the mic is. Think about it - a close mic on a guitar amp is within a few inches of the speaker. How many times have you stuck your ear down there? If you were to try it, you might be surprised at what's coming out.

The suggestions to move the mic around in small increments are good. Try moving the amp too.


Geoff

[satchmo72]

I also have a Avatar 2x12 cab loaded with a GT75, and vintage 30. I thought about running the JSX thru that and seeing how it sounded. I remember though having the same issue with the JCM2000 I had paired with this cab. I think I am going to have to adjust my recording ideas with what the room is giving me also.

[satchmo72]

So I hooked up my JSX to run through the vintage 30 speaker on my avatar cab and set the mic on the bottom left corner, off axis, pointing away from cone and got an unbelievable, solid sound. It took some playing around but I think that will be a good reference spot from now on.

Thanks for the ideas!!!!! I think I am going to keep experimenting so I know where to place the mic for different sounds should I need them. This is a big learning curve but fun to know.

[Donnie55]

I have been an engineer most of my life, one thing I can say for sure ,, just keep experimenting . What worked yesterday may not work on Monday , you never know. Your always tweeking. But along the way magic often happens.