Click track or not when recording??

[Del Pickup]

Being a bit old school in my ideas when it comes to music, I've resisted the idea of using a click track when I've been doing any recording, working on the basis that I should be able to keep time myself and I also tend to prefer the more 'human' end result which can happen when things are just ever so slightly 'untight' - so long as it's not just sloppy!

But I was struggling with a bass track a couple of nights ago - the song has a number of stops/starts in it - and thought I'd give it a go using the metronome on my trusty Korg D8 and to my surprise I found that the click track made it so much easier and the results were a lot more on the beat than I'd been able to do before!!!

Part of me is annoyed with myself at not being able to do it without a machine helping me but the other (logical side of my brain!!) says, make the technology work for you and use it if it helps!

So, who else is 'old school' and who just makes use of whatever technology is available and doesn't think twice about it?

[StuH]

I can't see how anyone who layers their own tracks to compose their own music can function without a click track or a drum groove of some sort.

I was working on a project last night where I had all my tracks layed out and was ready to add a bass track. I add bass using midi triggered synths. I completed a two measure bass line with the keyboard, and was preparing to do a copy/paste of these midi notes to a portion farther up in the song. When I pasted, I was a 16th note ahead of the beat and it threw the rhythm completely off. I can only imagine what a headache it would be if you built off something that wasn't solid.

There is something magical that happens with timing and flow when you record a group of musicians. Everything seem to magically fit. The magic just doesn't happen when you use the layered approach to music making, so the click track is essential for me

[Skully]

What Stu said.

I would use the click track to build a simple MIDI drum pattern to serve as a temporary foundation for the song. If you want the tempo to speed up and slow down in places, you can program that in, too. But that makes things a lot more complicated and, besides, the illusion of speed increase and increase can be accomplished through playing dynamics.

[Del Pickup]

Maybe I've just been lucky in the past cos I've always found it relatively easy to do things without a click track. Or maybe most of my recordings aren't strictly in time when other people listen to them!!

I can see that it might make things a lot simpler and avoid timing hiccups and therefore save some time but there's a part of my brain telling me that if they were able to do it 50 years ago then I should be able to do it now!

Admittedly, 50 years ago, everyone was in the room at the same time playing together and that does tend to lead to a better performance coming together.

[chezdeluxe]

A few years ago I bought a Fabulous Thunderbirds CD and the click track had not been erased.It was a nightmare and I still can't believe it went through production like that.

[StuH]

Originally Posted by chezdeluxe

A few years ago I bought a Fabulous Thunderbirds CD and the click track had not been erased.It was a nightmare and I still can't believe it went through production like that.

Holy smokes. That's wild. Wonder who got their pee pee slapped when the mishap was discovered?

[guitarzan13]

Originally Posted by StuH

Holy smokes. That's wild. Wonder who got their pee pee slapped when the mishap was discovered?

Ouch!

A click track always....

[woodman]

Originally Posted by Del Pickup

Admittedly, 50 years ago, everyone was in the room at the same time playing together and that does tend to lead to a better performance coming together.

yeah — i've always thought if you've got a good drummer, why futz with the click. (if you've got a bad drummer, chances are they'll have difficulty trying to play with a click.) so for band projects, no click for me. this means no dependable grid to work from while editing and so forth, but it doesn't bother me as long as the rhythm section's tight and the groove's happening ... my approach is generally to get dynamic live tracks with the drums, bass and rhythm guitar, and not worry about bleeding into the drum mikes.

on the other hand, layering tracks one at a time adds up to a real mess for me without a click. since i generally use loops or a drum machine for these ventures, it's no big deal. but anything beyond acoustic guitar and voice, gotta have the click.

while i admire guys like Skully who track their own drums, i'm afraid my drumming would render the tracks unlistenable!

[wetland10]

My band never uses a click track. We record "live" all at once like in the old days and our drummer is quite good. Granted, he's not a metronome, but I think you lose the feel when you start to play to a click track. I think the click works for solo projects though.

Wayne

[Tim Armstrong]

Fifty years ago, almost no one built up performances one track at a time, but rather recorded the whole band live and then maybe overdubbed vocals. Heck, as late as 1967 when the Beatles recorded "Sgt. Pepper", Abbey Road only had 4-track tape recorders!

Click tracks came into use when multitracking became a way of life. If you're recording one part at a time, you need SOME kind of reference!

Tim

[rand z]

i know a few big time musicians who record regularly and would NEVER think about doing it without a click track. unless, of course it is a LIVE recording, and even then, drummers will follow some sort of click track with headphones.

they will track live, in the studio, with a drummer using a DISGUISED click track. one that sounds like a another drum or percussion instrument. (gets rid of the annoying "click" and sounds more like music)

the band will follow the drummer and supply "dummy tracks" that, unless they turned out well, will be disgarded. the idea is to get a really good sounding drum track(s). and then the other instruments/parts (tracks) will be re recorded around the original drums tracks.

doing this works well as it comes off sounding pretty "live", but really is being built up, after the drums, one track at at time, during the initial recording.

very important:

initially this is all kept super TIGHT by the drummer using that desguised click track.

this is how most of the pros i know do it these daze...

rand z

[Old Cane]

I'm not sure what school is so old that you don't want to hear music played in time. It's really common, at least here in the Nashville area, that you always use a click. It's up to the drummer to set the groove and he will pull back behind the click and get on top of it, sometimes move ahead of it when the feel goes that way. But it's always there. To me, what some of you are saying is about like the reasoning behind that 5 string telecaster some are so fond of. "well, I never use it, might as well yank it off of there". So, we're out of time. At least we're all over the place together, right?

If used properly as a reference, not as an absolute, then it does what it's supposed to. I don't care who you are, if you lay something down by yourself and think it's in time have Chet McCracken or some other pro stop by and lay a drum track down to see how good you really are. I'll make a guess that 998 out of 1000 of us will be embarrassed.

[rand z]

btw, i know a few drummers that are HUMAN METRONOMES, and they all still use disguised click tracks during sessions.

one told me that without the disguised click tracks, everyone is trying to chase a moving target.

rand z

[ADK Teleman]

As an experienced studio musician and engineer ...I always use a click track. In college we were taught to use one for reference and then go from there. I now have my own studio and when I record my music I always use a click track to ensure I keep in time. That said..I leave it up to the individual on what they like....kind of like some folks like Teles others like Les Pauls....

[PaisleyIsGod]

Sometimes I notice when strumming along to nothing but a click track, I'll zone out then zone in and notice I'm slightly off, having to subtly adjust my tempo and get back on time. I usually don't use a click track when recording a song with nothing but acoustic guitar and maybe some slide or fiddle, but I need to in cases where drums come in a little later than everything else.

[mudbean]

Originally Posted by PaisleyIsGod

Sometimes I notice when strumming along to nothing but a click track, I'll zone out then zone in and notice I'm slightly off, having to subtly adjust my tempo and get back on time.

I find this happens more with a simple quarter note click. Try a drum machine pattern that includes notes inside the pulse (eighths and sixteenths) - for me, it seems easier to play with a drum beat of some sort.

mud

[JohnnyCrash]

CLICK TRACK.

Before click track existed, the god of music invented producers - and if you were off, they kicked you in the pants. The bad producers made bad, out of time, out of tune, awful music and were summarily executed by firing squad. The band was guillotined.

Moral of the story - somebody or some thing (click track or producer) has got to keep the time (or doublecheck the drummer) or injuries ensue... today we have click, so enjoy the luxury it affords.

--

Most trained, professional percusionists practiced religiously with metronomes since its invention in the 1800's. Timing is an important skill to acquire, practice, and refine lifelong for all musicians.

I wonder how many of the old great producers had metronomes in the booth (you know, those old clunky mechanical metronomes?). In the old days (pre-4 track or even in the multitracking era) it would take dozens of takes to get a song in the can... whether due to timing/tempo or other mistakes. You can reduce recording time by helping the drummer stay tight with a click track.

To say "they never used it 50 years ago" also means to dump the idea of multitracking, effects, and all sorts of other really good stuff. Half of the Beatles output would've been dumped ("let me get this straight, you want a backward looped orchestra?!").

--

Getting even more old school, Ludwig van Beethoven was the 1st major composer to use metronome time signature markings on his sheet music... when? In the early 1800's.

[Bensen]

Originally Posted by JohnnyCrash

CLICK TRACK.

+1 for Johnny Crash

If you ever want to listen to your recording afterwards use a click. We tried without and even though it felt great when we recorded, we couldn't show the stuff to anybody afterwards. Since then it's click all the way (even most of the livegigs)

[Telenator]

Click, yo, yes, absolutely.

[Tim Armstrong]

I gotta call bs here, as I've made quite a few band recordings without using a click track, and without problem (listen to the songs on my band's website for examples). A band with good players who have good time and who record the basic tracks all together doesn't NEED a click track (though there's certainly no reason they CAN'T use one).

As far as that goes, there isn't any rule that says a song CAN'T speed up and/or slow down in places. Sometimes a song has to breathe a little...

I find a click track very valuable when I build a song up track by track, though. And obviously, when recording someone whose time is more fluid than is usable!

Tim

[barkley]

When layering songs just by myself I use a click track just for the first instrument, usually bass. When the whole song is done on the bass, I erase the click and then play everything else to the bassline that is already in time.

When playing as a whole band I find no need for a click track as we keep each other in time , but we can can slow down or speed up at various points if need be.

Its strange that its so easy to go out of time without a clicktrack, it makes me wonder if I go out of time like that everytime I play but just dont notice

[ADK Teleman]

Originally Posted by Tim Armstrong

I gotta call bs here, as I've made quite a few band recordings without using a click track, and without problem (listen to the songs on my band's website for examples). A band with good players who have good time and who record the basic tracks all together doesn't NEED a click track (though there's certainly no reason they CAN'T use one).

As far as that goes, there isn't any rule that says a song CAN'T speed up and/or slow down in places. Sometimes a song has to breathe a little...

I find a click track very valuable when I build a song up track by track, though. And obviously, when recording someone whose time is more fluid than is usable!

Tim

Tim,
Great sound...I especially like the mandolin work on the second song!!!! If the Army ever sends us back to the DC area we will come out and catch a show!!
Eric

[Papa Joe]

I don't use a "click track",but I definetly need to have the drums for reference.I'm terrible about driving and speeding up.

[beep.click]

Technology gives us tools. I use whatever is available.

Click tracks are great. Drummers are great, too, if you happen to keep one chained in the basement. I don't have a basement, myself...

[peteycaster]

Just to throw in my two cents worth. If you are recording on computer (ie. CUBASE or the like) it is very handy to use a click so you can take advantage of the "snap" function. This means if you want to delete or copy or drop in a part, if you have used the click you will be able to begin (or snap to) at the start of a bar or near to it automatically. This is very useful when recording parts by yourself and you need to paste together parts (ie. vocals) that you have recorded on different tracks.

[wetland10]

There's a story somewhere (I'm paraphrasing here) where a member of Duran Duran saw the Rolling Stones in a recording studio and they were all playing together live in the room recording the song. The guy asks Keith Richards what they were doing and he said "We're recording an album, what the hell do you guys do?" Turns out the Duran Duran guys put down tracks via overdubs and were never in the studio at the same time.

I guess it may depend on the kind of music, but a song has to breathe and take on a natural sound overall as far as I'm concerned. To me that means a drummer laying down the beat and no metronome.

Wayne

[PaisleyIsGod]

Originally Posted by mudbean

I find this happens more with a simple quarter note click. Try a drum machine pattern that includes notes inside the pulse (eighths and sixteenths) - for me, it seems easier to play with a drum beat of some sort.

mud

Makes sense. I guess it would be easier to play along to something more filled in than "CLICK click click click". Thanks for the tip.

[Skully]

There's a story somewhere (I'm paraphrasing here) where a member of Duran Duran saw the Rolling Stones in a recording studio and they were all playing together live in the room recording the song. The guy asks Keith Richards what they were doing and he said "We're recording an album, what the hell do you guys do?" Turns out the Duran Duran guys put down tracks via overdubs and were never in the studio at the same time.

I'm remember that story very. However, it's worth noting that the Stones have recorded albums every which way during the course of their career. Whatever works. The initial tracks for their last album "A Bigger Bang" were recorded largely with Mick Jagger providing the drum beats through what was probably a combo of playing and programming. You can bet your life that he was working with some sort of click. Yet the results had that raw Stones sound of old.

I've heard that back in '89, Jagger was pushing for Watts to play to a click on tour. (In the latter half of the '80s, it was rumored that his timing was shot. It probably had something to deal with his mid-'80s heroin addiction.) Thankfully, it didn't happen, although I'm pretty sure they've been using a computer programmed (or recorded) cowbell for "Honky Tonk Woman" the past 20 years.

[Tim Bowen]

I often use the 'repeat' function on my CD player when I'm trying to learn a cover tune. A few that've recently caught me by surprise as to "tempo creep", as I call it, have been Led Zeppelin's "That's the Way" and Big Star's "Thirteen", both being tracks cut in the early 70's. When you hear the tunes 'looped' via the CD player's repeat function, it's pretty obvious that there's a tempo shift of probably (I'm guessing) 6-8 bpm. However, I'd never notice it without the looping aspect, and I think a bit of tempo shift for certain types of tunes feels more natural than the mechanical nature of a click.

Most, but certainly not all, of the sessions I've been involved with since the late 80's have had the perfunctory click track as track #1. Not that such is good or bad, it simply is (or was). It definitely makes good sense if a variety of musicians will be contributing to the tracks (some musicians that are otherwise great players have wonky sense of meter), and I think it makes perfect sense if the tune in question is to be a radio-friendly pop sort of thing (regardless of one's opinion of such).

I've never used clicks with anything funky, groovy, bluesy, or jazzy. I think it totally defeats the intended target. I cut what I'll call a "slow 12/8 gospel blues" tune with a band several years back, and a click was utilized. The tune wanted to sort of ebb and flow like the tide, if you will, from section to section. The click totally castrated the groove of that song, so it was tossed out immediately. Since that point, I've been very wary of clicks with slow to medium tempo 12/8 grooves.

Another track that I cut was a ballad that featured a double refrain near the end of the tune where the dynamics broke down to a whisper. This section wanted to slow down and gradually accelerate back to original tempo. All involved on the session felt it. To his credit, the engineer created a click track via Pro Tools that exactly accomplished this, and it was perfect. I was highly impressed.

My duo partner has long wanted to do a solo record, which is now nearly finished. He didn't cut any drums or percussion, and there's none on the tracks. He did however cut vocals, guitars, bass, harmonica, mandolin, banjo, autoharp, accordion, piano, Hammond organ, and some whatnots. He chose not to use a click. I've listened to the roughs, and I think it's going to be a really nice record. He asked my opinion about the mixes, and I said that I'd recut one particular track with a click. This was a song where the main groove was supplied by an autoharp, and it felt a little off to me. He agreed.

Like I said, most of the recording situations I'm involved with utilize a click. Depending upon the song at hand, and the part(s) that I'm to play, I sometimes use the supplied click, but often ask that it be removed from my phones or open air mix entirely.

Typically long winded response to a simple question from me. My short answer is "it depends".

[wetland10]

Originally Posted by Skully

I'm remember that story very. However, it's worth noting that the Stones have recorded albums every which way during the course of their career. Whatever works. The initial tracks for their last album "A Bigger Bang" were recorded largely with Mick Jagger providing the drum beats through what was probably a combo of playing and programming. You can bet your life that he was working with some sort of click. Yet the results had that raw Stones sound of old.

I've heard that back in '89, Jagger was pushing for Watts to play to a click on tour. (In the latter half of the '80s, it was rumored that his timing was shot. It probably had something to deal with his mid-'80s heroin addiction.) Thankfully, it didn't happen, although I'm pretty sure they've been using a computer programmed (or recorded) cowbell for "Honky Tonk Woman" the past 20 years.

I've heard that too. I also thought I heard that during their recent tours there is a click to get teh songs started and then they go off from there. Probably lots of variations and variables going on.

Wayne

[Martin R]

Great thread. I'd been feeling "unprofessional" because we didn't use a click on our last CD. We tried it initially, but the songs felt wrong.

So before we got too deep into the process, we started from scratch without the clicks. It gave the drummer fits when he would redo a part, but the songs feel right.

I don't have the vocabulary or ear to describe why one version is better than the other but now I'm sure we did the right thing.

Martin
E. Christina Herr & Wild Frontier

[tboy]

Always for layering. Too many reasons down the line where you'll NEED it. First thing I do when a band comes in to re-mix or track on a song in progress, I create a tempo map click track in Melodyne.

No matter what the case, I encourage a band to use a click. When the drummer says no, it's usually because he/she can't cut it. I've never had a pro drummer say no. Usually, they welcome the idea, many demand it. Good drummers can "breath" around a click.

I don't encounter much music anymore that needs to ebb and flow in tempo. Drum machines and sequencers have made people hyper sensitive to tempo drift in songs. A grooving song needs to hit the groove and stay there for me, in order to sound current. Tempo drift that I accepted in the 70's, sounds very weird to me today.

[fezz parka]

Originally Posted by Tim Armstrong

I gotta call bs here, as I've made quite a few band recordings without using a click track, and without problem (listen to the songs on my band's website for examples). A band with good players who have good time and who record the basic tracks all together doesn't NEED a click track (though there's certainly no reason they CAN'T use one).

As far as that goes, there isn't any rule that says a song CAN'T speed up and/or slow down in places. Sometimes a song has to breathe a little...

I find a click track very valuable when I build a song up track by track, though. And obviously, when recording someone whose time is more fluid than is usable!

Tim

I totally agree. If the band's recording the basic parts together, and is well rehearsed, then a click isn't necessary. When doing solo stuff, a click or loop will keep you "on".

[tboy]

Originally Posted by fezz parka

I totally agree. If the band's recording the basic parts together, and is well rehearsed, then a click isn't necessary. When doing solo stuff, a click or loop will keep you "on".

Depends on the drummer. Most club drummers play a kind of foot loose style that works well enough in live situations, but falls short in a pro recording situation, where you're aim is a modern master recording. Rolls that speed up slightly (common, even with pretty good drummers) and sections that "take off" or drag slightly don't sound modern. It's a bit of a 70's feel, so it depends on what you're after, I guess. I'm talking current radio-aimed pop/rock/blues.

I'd never impose a click on bluegrass, folk, some blues, Celtic, that sort of stuff.

[fezz parka]

Originally Posted by tboy

Depends on the drummer.

Sure does. That being said, if the drummer's on the mark, you don't need a click for a well rehearsed band.

[Tim Bowen]

Originally Posted by tboy

Always for layering. Too many reasons down the line where you'll NEED it. First thing I do when a band comes in to re-mix or track on a song in progress, I create a tempo map click track in Melodyne.

Absolutely. Whether or not a particular musician or act chooses to forego the click, not having a dead nuts point of reference for overdub situations is just a bad call.

No matter what the case, I encourage a band to use a click. When the drummer says no, it's usually because he/she can't cut it. I've never had a pro drummer say no. Usually, they welcome the idea, many demand it. Good drummers can "breath" around a click.

True. Pro drummers understand this. Depending on the material, sometimes the click will still get tossed, but a competent, experienced drummer shouldn't have an aversion to clicks, even the dreaded Pac-Man sounding varieties. If they feel groove slightly ahead of or behind the beat for certain sections, they're still going to play that way, click or not.

I don't encounter much music anymore that needs to ebb and flow in tempo. Drum machines and sequencers have made people hyper sensitive to tempo drift in songs. A grooving song needs to hit the groove and stay there for me, in order to sound current. Tempo drift that I accepted in the 70's, sounds very weird to me today.

I don't either, but for when it does (need to) happen, it's cool to know that you can create, for instance, an accelerando that actually feels right, with a digital format. "Current" music is a fairly vast scope. The recording approaches that are SOP to me and others might be considered the kiss of death for certain indie rock acts or folks that like to think of themselves as minimalists (not judgement, just observation).

The tempo drift stuff of the 70's and earlier are sort of like charming period pieces in a sense. That said, I think certain elements of tracks cut during that period might possibly have lost something else in the way of vibe by introducing more stipulations. Tough to say, it's hypothetical. Nonetheless, I'd venture to guess that even a Led Zeppelin or a Big Star would have a hard sell situation on their hands with an executive producer in 2009, given a tempo creep of 6-8 bpm, were these guys still making records today. Or not, who's to say. If the artist has enough clout, the parameters are potentially quite different.