stereo pair or one good mic for acoustic

[GhostofJohnToad]

My budget is $150. Would it be better to get a stereo pair for this price or one slightly better mic. This is for recording my Martin DR, and I am thinking small diaphram condenser.

[Astro1176]

Stereo is over-rated, and definitely no substitute for absolute quality. I would agree with spending the whole lot on the best small diaphragm condensor you can.

[rangercaster]

you can get 2 MXL 990s at MF for that kind of money ... then you would have a nice pair of small diaphragm condensors ... then again, Astro has a very good point about quality ... i would get a good condensor and use a dynamic or something else to get a stereo field ... there really are no rules and experimentation w/ EQ, placement etc. can yield great results ...

[woodman]

one good mike will take you a lot further than two crappy mikes. my advice on that budget would be a Shure Beta ... not a condenser, but my experience has been that in the under-$500 price point, a quality dynamic will outperform a so-so condenser.

[GhostofJohnToad]

is really the only advantage with the stereo pair for situations say in which I were just recording vocals and acoustic and wanted acoustic to be very prominent? I have been reading conflicting advice and am a little confused.

[woodman]

Originally Posted by GhostofJohnToad

is really the only advantage with the stereo pair for situations say in which I were just recording vocals and acoustic and wanted acoustic to be very prominent? I have been reading conflicting advice and am a little confused.

stereo pairs (as astro said) are overrated. choose your $150 mike and focus like a laser on mike placement — one inch can be the difference between heaven or hell. find the sweet spot for your guitar/mike combo and develop your sound.

[woodman]

Originally Posted by GhostofJohnToad

I am thinking small diaphram condenser.

re-read your original post and noted this. i wonder if you'd get the bottom end and warmth you want from a small diaphragm condenser. i spent $225 in 1999 for an AKG C1000S (about $275 now) and it just sits around.

[Geoff738]

Originally Posted by Astro1176

Stereo is over-rated, and definitely no substitute for absolute quality. I would agree with spending the whole lot on the best small diaphragm condensor you can.

I'm with Astro on this.

Stereo mic placement can get you into all sorts of problems (Can work great too).

If I want a stereo sense of space I'm more likely to try double tracking the part or putting a nice 'verb or subtle delay on the guitar track.

Now, if you have a nice guitar (sounds like that part is taken care of), nice mics through good pres and compressor and converters in a good sounding room and with monitors which allow you to hear what's happening, then maybe I'd record in stereo.

I really don't know what to recommend in that price range. I've been out of this loop for a while so take the following with a grain of sand. The less expensive/ bottom of the line sd mics I have heard have been very bright/ strident. Not my cuppa, although there may well be mics in your price range that would do just fine. There was an Audio Technica one that I thought was decent and might be in your price range for a single mic.

Cheers,
Geoff

[StuH]

One half decent one Toad.

[Astro1176]

Originally Posted by GhostofJohnToad

is really the only advantage with the stereo pair for situations say in which I were just recording vocals and acoustic and wanted acoustic to be very prominent? I have been reading conflicting advice and am a little confused.

I'm confused now - are you recording guitar, or a singing guitarist? And is the guitar going to be the only instrument, or part of a band mix? What is the purpose of the recordings and what level do you want to record to? What style of music are you playing?

For recording guitar on its own, even when listened to on a great hi fi, very few listeners will distinguish between a genuine stereo recoded acoustic guitar and a mono recorded acoustic with a touch of stereo reverb to give a soundstage for it. Depending on mic'ing techniques an acoustic recorded with 2 mics can sound un-naturally wide and strange too.

If you are singing too, most pop, rock, country and folk music favours relative close mic's vocals, so the nearest to an ideal setup for this is a SM58 for vocals and a relatively close mic'd condenser on guitar (close mic'd to reduce phasing issues betweeen the mics).

I haven't looked around for condensers in your price range, as Woodman says there are some terrible ones around, I never understood why the C1000 had such good press I also found it to be a pretty much un-usable mic! It is possible a good dynamic might be better than a poor condenser. I hear good reports about various cheap Russian and Chinese mics, but I haven't tried them to be able to comment.

[Ben Harmless]

Originally Posted by Astro1176

I never understood why the C1000 had such good press I also found it to be a pretty much un-usable mic!

My experience as well. I've had touring acts bring them in and use them for things that a '57 would have been a whole ton better on.

I'm also in the "one good mic" school.

Be aware that there is more than one reason to use two mics on an acoustic however. Many folks will use two mics to blend the tone from two different locations. This is not stereo, especially since panning the two sources will sound a little strange, and probably cause phase issues. A true stereo setup can be great, but will involve one of the well-proven stereo techniques to be sure of phase correctness, and to capture a true stereo image - a single source as heard by two ears.

If you don't have a great room to record in - one that sounds good to you already - then don't bother using a stereo setup. A single mic placed well is your best friend.

That, plus the acoustic guitar isn't supposed to sound ten feet wide. I can't stand recordings that try and wrap the thing around my head. A single mic, used tastefully, with maybe a touch of ambiance (again, used tastefully) can be as accurate a representation of an acoustic as one needs.

A lot of recordists choose mics with their eyes. LDCs are "supposed" to have slower response to transients than SDCs. SDCs are "supposed" to have better high end articulation due to lower-mass diaphrams.

I call BS on that. Sometimes the "poorer articulation" of a LDC (or *gasp* a dynamic mic) can be a very complimentary thing on a particular source. Sometimes the "reduced low end response" of a SDC can be exactly what the doctor ordered when the source is a little muddier than you expected.

You know what the best overhead drum sound I ever got was? A single SM81 (SDC) over the drummer's head, pointed forward and down. He was a great drummer with a very good sounding kit, and I got so much low out of the kick that I didn't bother mixing in the RE20 that I was using on it. This was a fairly low-volume live performance, and I couldn't stop listening to that mic in my headphones because of how realistic the sound was. The '81 was a fluke. I put it up as an afterthought for a show where I didn't expect to put the drums in the system. This is in my workplace where we typically use a matched stereo pair of AKG 414s for overheads - which are much more expensive LDCs.

All that being said, I have a (non matched) pair of MXL 603 SDCs that I like quite a bit on acoustic. They're cheap. I think I got both of them on sale for under $150. I typically record myself with just one of them. I've also got a KEL Audio HM-1, which is slightly less bright, that I like as well.

If I were looking to spend right now, I'd possibly consider a Studio Projects B1, or possibly a B3 with switchable polar patters so that eventually I could get another one and use them for mid-side recording (look it up - it's very cool) which I've become addicted to lately.

A good friend uses his B3 in his studio constantly, even when he has significantly more expensive mics available. It does very well for him. For that reason alone, I would not hesitate to recommend it.

Whew. That was long, but it's late, and I'm bored. End rant.

[Geoff738]

Originally Posted by Ben Harmless

Whew. That was long, but it's late, and I'm bored. End rant.

Perhaps - but good advice as far as I'm concerned. 2 mics, whether aiming for a "stereo" soundscape or not bring phase issues into play. Cans of worms. Maybe barrels.

I don't like the C-1000 either, FWIW.

cheers,
Geoff

[Tim Armstrong]

I've been quite happy recording acoustic (dreadnaught) guitars with an MXL 603s.

Tim

[GhostofJohnToad]

wow, thanks for the advice guys.

Astro - with vocals and acoustic I meant one track of acoustic and another of vocals. I guess I meant when the song will just be voice and acoustic and whether the stereo pair would be more important in such a more minimal song arrangement, not recording them at the same time.

Ben - thanks for reminding me of the phase issue.

I think I will try the 1 mic approach. And to that end I'll add that my Martin is rather boomy and at times can be a little too bassy. I have currently been recording it with my sm58 with the metal head thingy off. It sounds just ok to me and seems to lack articulation and sparkle. I have messed with it's placement quite a bit but the sound ain't getting me.

[DocG]

Also essential is to spend the time to find the best spot for that one good mic.

As others have pointed out, moving the mic even an inch can make a big difference. A good starting point is to position the mic at the 14th fret and tilt it toward the body. Move it in various directions an inch at a time and record a few seconds of some standard passage. Label each test by saying something like "Audiio Technica XYZ100 at the middle of the upper treble bout, four inches from the guitar top, facing the end of the fingerboard" so when you listen back to compare them you'll know which is which.

[Old Cane]

Originally Posted by woodman

one good mike will take you a lot further than two crappy mikes. my advice on that budget would be a Shure Beta ... not a condenser, but my experience has been that in the under-$500 price point, a quality dynamic will outperform a so-so condenser.

This is my thinking, too. And if you don't like the beta give a Heil a try.

When you talk about stereo pairs generally people think you are talking about a matched pair. Unless you really spend the money or get very lucky one that you like for guitar is probably not going to be the same one you want for a vocal (like using a pair of SDCs). So you'd be talking about 3 mics. A stereo pair and a vocal mic and probably some sort of close isolation solution. On the other hand putting up one mic and finding the placement where you can pick up voice and guitar is probably easier....well, ok, not easy but easier to afford. You'll be spending time instead of a pile of money.

[still_fiddlin]

Craigslist can be your friend for this sort of thing. I got an A-T 4051a for $100. A little scuffed up, but it's pretty nice, especially for acoustic instruments. Also, I've used a Shure Beta57a with good results both live (amp, vocals) and even recording a piano. It's a very versatile mic, and might be better for vocals, though not quite the same "studio" quality on acoustic, more than adequate for most folks.

[Tim Armstrong]

"Boomy" happens a lot if you're aiming the mic at the soundhole. As suggested by DocG, aiming it at the fingerboard tends to give a crisper tone...

Tim

[mudbean]

Hey, Ben, were we separated at birth? Get outta my head!! Spot on, as usual.

Charter member here, of the C1000s Haters Club.

Ghostof - Do you have any mics now?

mud

[Ben Harmless]

Originally Posted by mudbean

Hey, Ben, were we separated at birth? Get outta my head!!

I'z in yer head, steeling yer mic tekneeks!

I think all the TDPRIers should get together and make a record. We'd be rich if we ever actually tracked anything.

[octatonic]

$1000 guitar, $150 mic isn't the best combination imho if this is anything other than a demo, but under $200 you can get a couple of Audio Technica mics that are quite decent.

AT2020 you can get for $100 at the moment.
Or the AT 2035 for about $150.

Can you stretch to $200? You can currenty get an AT4051a for $195. They are usually $500.

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produc...d_Element.html

Don't get too fixated on SDC's- an LDC will do the job just fine.
The last lot of acoustic guitars I recorded were done with a U47, albeit a much more expensive LDC.

[elmerbumpkin]

I really like the AT 40* series on acoustic guitars. I own a 4033 and have used a 4047, both sound great.

[Geoff738]

Originally Posted by octatonic

$1000 guitar, $150 mic isn't the best combination imho if this is anything other than a demo, but under $200 you can get a couple of Audio Technica mics that are quite decent.

AT2020 you can get for $100 at the moment.
Or the AT 2035 for about $150.

Can you stretch to $200? You can currenty get an AT4051a for $195. They are usually $500.

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produc...d_Element.html

Don't get too fixated on SDC's- an LDC will do the job just fine.
The last lot of acoustic guitars I recorded were done with a U47, albeit a much more expensive LDC.

I think the link is just for a capsule, not the whole mic.

The AT 4051 is the mic I was alluding to in my post above. Really great mics. Wish I had one (or two).

Cheers,
Geoff

[octatonic]

Originally Posted by Geoff738

I think the link is just for a capsule, not the whole mic.

The AT 4051 is the mic I was alluding to in my post above. Really great mics. Wish I had one (or two).

Cheers,
Geoff

Ack- yes, you are right.
MF has the whole mic for $299 at the moment though.

http://pro-audio.musiciansfriend.com...one?sku=270571

[kplamann]

To mention another alternative: Following very good advice I received on some audio board I got a pair of reasonably prized condenser microphones from the very small (one man?) Swedish company Line Audio (their CM3 model).

I have used them with excellent results for classical small ensemble and solo flute recordings. I have also experimented a bit with recording acoustic guitar. I agree with one of the posters above that the simultaneous use of two microphones makes more sense if you wish to blend the signals from two mike positions than for creating a stereo impression. The latter may create phase issues and would only make an audible difference in a solo guitar situation. The former may provide very interesting options, but obviously requires some experimenting with the mike positions. Start with one of the mikes pointing to the 12th fret, avoid pointing a mike to the sound hole.

[backalleyblues]

Well, IF you can find a cheap condensor you like, then run with that. I have 2 in my stable now (AKG Perception 200 and MXL V67) and they definitely sound different, fer sure. The AKG is pretty bright, too bright for my voice, but probably would be real nice on acoustic. It's successor, the 220, is smack-dab at the top of your price range. The MXL I don't think they make anymore-it's considered "warmer" with a much more rounded top end. I use it on my voice, since it smooths out my natural reediness and cuts out a lot of sibilence (meaning less EQ on the back end-always a good thing!) It also sounds real nice on my dobro. They were selling for $100 new, you might turn one up on CL or Fleabay...

And Ben, you're right about the SM-81-incredible overhead drum mic, I've used a pair for recording (SM-57 on snare, Beta 52 kick, and the SM-81s-almost perfect sound!). Good luck on finding one of those @ $150...

Franc Robert