uhhhhh? hmmm.....

[getbent]

Fellas.... 'splain me this...

Kind of an interesting idea.... I'd love to hear opinions... it would be simple to make something like this... would it be of value?

[J-man]

I guess it would work fine.. Definitely cheap and easy to build one.

I've never tried using anything like that so I can't speak from experience, but I'd imagine it would have some pretty odd acoustic properties, since it's so small..

I'm not sure throwing some sound proofing tiles in there would stop the "boxy" sound (no pun intended) from coming through on your recordings.

I'd like to try one sometime.

[ibobunot]

Porta-Booth Saves the Day...

[E.D. Patton]

There have been variations on that idea floating around for years. When I worked in broadcast news and film we would rig up a temp vocal booth using C stands and sound blankets (AKA packing blankets) whenever we needed to record a voiceover.

The one you linked to looks kinda spiffy, though you could cobble something together out a "soft" insulating cooler and some eggcrate foam-though at $60 a pop it's about a wash.

Anything that mechanically filters reflections from the rear of the mic will achieve the same effect. Here's a shot of one that is popular, but (IMHO) overpriced. I looked at one up close and was not impressed with the build quality.

A halfway handy person could make one with better parts for a lot less dough.

[getbent]

that one is cool... E.D.! I like to leave stuff set up so I don't have to tinker when I try to record... I run out of gas and get too frustrated too fast...

hmmmmmmmmmmm... some more.

[Tdot]

Originally Posted by getbent

that one is cool... E.D.! I like to leave stuff set up so I don't have to tinker when I try to record... I run out of gas and get too frustrated too fast...

hmmmmmmmmmmm... some more.

A friend of mine has that one. I don't know what it cost, but it's well made.

I bet a walk through IKEA could provide the pieces to make one cheaper than the one on CL.

[Tim Armstrong]

Heck, a framework of PVC pipe and a bunch of blankets works great for me...

Cheers, Tim

[octatonic]

Terrible idea.

Vocal booths, as an idea, are pretty rubbish.
We are not radio announcers.

We WANT natural reverb, when it is flattering.

Digital reverb, modelling reverb doesn't come close to a great acoustic environment.
You are much better off having a good live room rather than a vocal booth.
If you have less space a vocal booth is a compromise- but this product is complete and utter tosh.

The SE Reflection filter is actually a great product though, for some applications (but not all).

[jussishow]

I guess those booths/reflection filters could come in handy when recording multiple sources ? Helps You "isolate the sources" ? Maybe ...

[J-man]

Originally Posted by octatonic

Terrible idea.

Vocal booths, as an idea, are pretty rubbish.
We are not radio announcers.

We WANT natural reverb, when it is flattering.

Digital reverb, modelling reverb doesn't come close to a great acoustic environment.
You are much better off having a good live room rather than a vocal booth.
If you have less space a vocal booth is a compromise- but this product is complete and utter tosh.

Just my opinion but, I hate recording vocals in live rooms..

Having a great natural reverb in a room is fine - until you want to record something with less/different reverb - then you're screwed, and have to throw something together with separation boards or similar in an attempt to deaden the reverb.

The great thing about dead rooms is that you have 100% control over the reverb on your recording, as adding reverb is much easier than trying to get rid of it.

As for digital reverb... Well there are 1001 companies selling all manner of rack mounts, plug-ins, etc.
Some of them are awful - but then again some of them are so convincing it's scary - it's all about knowing what to buy and how to use it.

There's a time and a place for every room type - and I certainly don't mean to say live rooms don't have a lot of uses, but if I could only have one it would be a dead room every time.

YMMV.

[getbent]

Originally Posted by octatonic

Terrible idea.

Vocal booths, as an idea, are pretty rubbish.
We are not radio announcers.

We WANT natural reverb, when it is flattering.

Digital reverb, modelling reverb doesn't come close to a great acoustic environment.
You are much better off having a good live room rather than a vocal booth.
If you have less space a vocal booth is a compromise- but this product is complete and utter tosh.

The SE Reflection filter is actually a great product though, for some applications (but not all).

How is the SE different from the el cheapo solution in terms of 'what it does'? I'm not planning to buy the 60.00 job, but seeing it did lead me to the post which led to E.D. pointing out a very similar solution that some pretty big time producers and engineers like....

Vocal booths are a bad idea? oh man, as a kid I worked in some pretty big studios (as a flunky) and there were lots and lots of classic album vocals that were recorded in vocal booths.... hmmm, that observation is problematic for me.... I have seen folks use those very successfully and that would be in record sales and sound. I'd grant two things though: A really great natural reverb is really wonderful and that NO tool is good for everything.... beyond that a total dismissal is usually the opening for someone to show key exceptions that dilute the point.... but, okay, it is tosh.

Remember, most of us don't have good natural reverb available, nor room for a full booth... and we need stuff to be small and portable.... so, given that...

[Daddydex]

Alright, so the SE is a great and useful product. The one pictured in E.D.'s post is like 300 bucks. What are the materials used? Are the materials readily available?

Dan

[Tdot]

Originally Posted by Daddydex

Alright, so the SE is a great and useful product. The one pictured in E.D.'s post is like 300 bucks. What are the materials used? Are the materials readily available?

$300! yikes.

For the cheaper option, I looked, and IKEA does have fabric/nylon drawers that collapse flat. I saw 2 sizes about 13x13 or 15x15 opening, one was $5. Cut some egg crate squares, and your done cheap.

[getbent]

Dan, I think a guy could put together something functional for less than 50.00... The need to isolate in poor audio environments (translation: most of our garages and home office studios) is pretty major... and while digital reverbs etc are not as good as the fancy echo chambers... I'm reminded that Duane Eddy used to use a silo for some of his reverb recordings and since I am probably not putting up a silo... I'll have to do with the readily available solution... which is digital....

[J-man]

Originally Posted by Tdot

$300! yikes.

For the cheaper option, I looked, and IKEA does have fabric/nylon drawers that collapse flat. I saw 2 sizes about 13x13 or 15x15 opening, one was $5. Cut some egg crate squares, and your done cheap.

Egg Crates in the place of sound proofing tiles is an urban myth. Sound proofing tile effectiveness is in the material, the shape is "fine tuning".

[getbent]

I think you could probably use the bedding style 'egg crates' from an old one it is a similar texture and substance to the auralex stuff (Probably not as good, but probably good enough) you can buy a sheet of that if you don't already have some pretty inexpensively... I'd guess good cardboard as a backer, some hot glue etc... it can't be that hard to approximate it.

[octatonic]

Originally Posted by J-man

Just my opinion but, I hate recording vocals in live rooms..

Having a great natural reverb in a room is fine - until you want to record something with less/different reverb - then you're screwed, and have to throw something together with separation boards or similar in an attempt to deaden the reverb.

The great thing about dead rooms is that you have 100% control over the reverb on your recording, as adding reverb is much easier than trying to get rid of it.

As for digital reverb... Well there are 1001 companies selling all manner of rack mounts, plug-ins, etc.
Some of them are awful - but then again some of them are so convincing it's scary - it's all about knowing what to buy and how to use it.

There's a time and a place for every room type - and I certainly don't mean to say live rooms don't have a lot of uses, but if I could only have one it would be a dead room every time.

YMMV.

Perhaps I should have said IMHO to my post above, but thought it was pretty much a given.

I am not against dry rooms- You can have a room larger than a vocal booth that is still dry.
It is not true that a vocal booth is necessarily a dry room simply because it is small.
A well designed room can be made to be dry or reverberant.
A badly designed room can be made to be dry or reverberant.

What is desirable, more than dry or wetness is an acoustically flat room- one where there is a minimum of room modes that build up causing peaks/troughs at particular frequency points.

Vocal booths might be a necessary evil for some people- it is of course better to have a small voice tracking room than none at all- but let me just say that in most situations a well designed live room is going to be more useful than a small vocal booth.
The reason is small rooms are hard to treat acoustically- room modes build up causing huge peaks and dips in the acoustic properties of the room, which require a lot of work to eq out.

Originally Posted by getbent

How is the SE different from the el cheapo solution in terms of 'what it does'? I'm not planning to buy the 60.00 job, but seeing it did lead me to the post which led to E.D. pointing out a very similar solution that some pretty big time producers and engineers like....

Vocal booths are a bad idea? oh man, as a kid I worked in some pretty big studios (as a flunky) and there were lots and lots of classic album vocals that were recorded in vocal booths.... hmmm, that observation is problematic for me.... I have seen folks use those very successfully and that would be in record sales and sound. I'd grant two things though: A really great natural reverb is really wonderful and that NO tool is good for everything.... beyond that a total dismissal is usually the opening for someone to show key exceptions that dilute the point.... but, okay, it is tosh.

Remember, most of us don't have good natural reverb available, nor room for a full booth... and we need stuff to be small and portable.... so, given that...

We SE differs from the one advertised on craigslist, the "Harlan Hogan Porta-Booth", in how it is designed.
Harlan Hogan Porta-Booth is made with cheap acoustic foam which is going to absorb pretty much top end only- I am guessing but I'd say anything from around 1khz and up if it responds like similar products on the market.
This is utterly useless in application unless you have a sudden need for a bottom heavy, boxy vocal sound.

Actually if you'd like to go to http://www.realtraps.com/info.htm and put in the room dimensions for the Harlan Hogan Portabooth then you can see where the modes will occur.
I don't have a PC near me at the moment (I'm on a Mac) so I can't do it.
I'll go out on a limb (sort of) and say that I'm willing to bet that this particular product will perform very poorly.

The SE Reflection filter works much better because it has been designed properly, reflects/absorbs across a broader frequency range, doesn't use cheap acoustic foam and reflects away from the mic position rather than simply absorbing the top end and reflecting everything else.

As far as vocal booths- well let's agree to disagree on this- the idea of a small vocal booth has had a resurgence in the home studio/semi-pro market.
As stated for reasons above the nature of such a room is questionable when dealing with vocals over a broad range.
Vocal booths started in the broadcast world. specifically for voiceover work.

Sung vocals range from 75hz - 1khz roughly.
It is difficult to treat such a small room over such a broad range where voiceover work has a move limited range.

If you are tracking your vocals with a dynamic mic in a vocal booth then fine- you aren't likely to have the same sort of issues as trying to record with condensers in a vocal booth.
I have built vocal booths and live rooms in the past- from scratch.
John L Sayers website is a great resource for anyone who is thinking of doing it.

http://www.johnlsayers.com/

Also Gearslutz acoustic forum and the Realtraps site.

Perhaps I was being a bit glib when I posted last night- apologies for that- I'd had a 12 hour editing session and was a bit ratty.

[Strawfields]

Now the debate of ladies stockings on coat hangers as pop shields

[octatonic]

Originally Posted by getbent

I think you could probably use the bedding style 'egg crates' from an old one it is a similar texture and substance to the auralex stuff (Probably not as good, but probably good enough)

Er... sorry to be a thread killer- but these are best avoided.
Egg crates and similar don't do anything for the lower frequencies.
You end up with a very boxy/boomy room with poor top end and an accentuated bottom/lower mid range.

There are normally two reasons for dealing with acoustics.
1. Acoustic Treatment (ie rooom balancing)
2. Sound proofing (ie acoustic isolation)

In both situations egg cartons do not work.
They actually make the room more unbalanced and do nothing to keep low frequencies from leaving the acoustic space.

In most situations acoustic foam is the same.

Regarding acoustic treatment/room balancing acoustic foam does have some uses however- but you are going to get much better performance by buying some rockwool, making a frame and hanging them on the wall, iudeally straddling corners, behind the mix area or over the top of the mix area (which is called a cloud).

Will be cheaper than Auralex and the like as well (or at least not significantly more expensive).
I've built six 4ft x 2ft bass traps out of rockwool for less than £150.

[TelZilla]

Wasn't there a story that there was a famous Blues /R&B studio in the Southern US, maybe Memphis (I don't think it was muscle shoals) that was some body's apartment where they used actual egg crates stapled to the wall? Of course, back then the were pressed cardboard or whatever.

For some reason I remembewr reading that The Boxtops recorded "The Letter" there.

Anybody know what I'm thinking of?

[octatonic]

Originally Posted by TelZilla

Wasn't there a story that there was a famous Blues /R&B studio in the Southern US, maybe Memphis (I don't think it was muscle shoals) that was some body's apartment where they used actual egg crates stapled to the wall? Of course, back then the were pressed cardboard or whatever.

For some reason I remembewr reading that The Boxtops recorded "The Letter" there.

Anybody know what I'm thinking of?

That track was written/recorded/produced by Dan Penn.
He certainly was at Muscle Shoals for a time but also at Fame and American with Spooner Oldham.

Egg cartons was certainly used by a lot of people at one point- but we absolutely know better these days.

Not taking anything away from those recordings- some of them sound great- but that has nothing to do with the use (or lack) of egg cartons.

[TelZilla]

Originally Posted by octatonic

That track was written/recorded/produced by Dan Penn.
He certainly was at Muscle Shoals for a time but also at Fame and American with Spooner Oldham.

Egg cartons was certainly used by a lot of people at one point- but we absolutely know better these days.

Not taking anything away from those recordings- some of them sound great- but that has nothing to do with the use (or lack) of egg cartons.

Maybe it was the early days at fame. I certainly wasn't advocating Egg Crate use.

[Daddydex]

I don't think GB was talking about egg crates. I think he was talking about a mattress pad that looks like an egg crate. You would see them in nursing homes.

Dan

[Skully]

I think the likelihood of someone crafting a vocal booth for a project studio with good natural reflections is pretty slim and not worth the effort. Much better to isolate the voice and add verb to taste, as J-man suggested.

Personally, I cut my vocals in drum isolation booth. It cuts down on reflections and, more important, frees my psychologically, so I can let go and not worry about people hearing my mistakes and "experiments." Sure, it would be great if I had a great live room to cut the drums or a real "professional" vocal booth. But I don't. Deal with the limitations and get creative with that. In fact, why not use the limitation as a flavor in your recording? I mean, think of all the crap sounding crap music that's been cut in "professional" studios.

The laws of diminishing returns are really in play here. For not too much money, you can get a pretty damn good computer recording set-up these days -- one that someone like Lindsey Buckingham would've killed for when he was recording his portions of "Tusk" in his guesthouse back in 1979. If you're trying to serve a client, it's one thing. But another $750 spent for the right hardware processor that they champion on gearslutz is not going to improve your songwriting, your production ideas or your playing, and it's probably not going to give you a discernibly better result than the artful use of plug-ins that can be had for nothing or close to it.

Personally, I think that when most home recorders spend all that money on acoustic dampeners, etc., it's about making a project out of the studio, instead of making a project out of the music.

[Tdot]

Originally Posted by Daddydex

I don't think GB was talking about egg crates. I think he was talking about a mattress pad that looks like an egg crate. You would see them in nursing homes.

Dan

Yes, that's what I meant also. They are available in a range of densities and cell size.

But this thread started out about making a DIY cheap version. How about $4.99 for this, and $10.99 for a 12 pk of 12x12" of this stuff. Less than $20 and you have a tool that's better than nothing when you need it, and spare tiles to stick somewhere, or throw at the kids.

[E.D. Patton]

Goodness!

What hath we wrought?

To summarize my thoughts on the subject:

1) I think the basic idea of a back reflection filter is essentially solid. Being able to tune out unwanted rear-firing reflection using a "mechanical filter" is a handy tool that a lot of us could make use of to improve recordings of our vocal performaces.

2) I like the general layout of the SE product, though at that price I know I could make something better for a lot less. I think that's true for a lot of folks here. Handy crew, these TDPRIers.

3) I'm all for recording in live environments. If the room is nicely tuned and the signal chain tight nothing beats recording that way. It seems like I'm adding treatments to my room almost monthly.

Those are my brain dropping du jour!

[getbent]

Man, there is a red light blinking in my head on this thread.....

but, as I look at all the things there are to think about, resolve and do.... I'm gonna press the ignore button.

It would be fun to make a few recordings and put them within a mix with several solutions and see if we can determine if the angel is wearing a bra or not when she dances on the head of a pin... somehow I think my metal garage door is feeling slightly naked because of his poor acoustic properties....

[TelZilla]

Originally Posted by Tdot

Yes, that's what I meant also. They are available in a range of densities and cell size.

But this thread started out about making a DIY cheap version. How about $4.99 for this, and $10.99 for a 12 pk of 12x12" of this stuff. Less than $20 and you have a tool that's better than nothing when you need it, and spare tiles to stick somewhere, or throw at the kids.

OK, I'm dumb, so please explain- You obviously line the drawer with tthe pyramid foam. Then you stick a mic up through the bottom (I guess you have to make some kinda hole) and sing into the open side?

[Tdot]

Originally Posted by TelZilla

OK, I'm dumb, so please explain- You obviously line the drawer with tthe pyramid foam. Then you stick a mic up through the bottom (I guess you have to make some kinda hole) and sing into the open side?

I think that's about it. Or sit the assembled foam box on a desk/table and put a mini mic stand inside. I imagined these things as a portable option to a real sound booth for folks who don't have the space or cash for the real deal.

I wonder how good it would be for singing, but I bet it would be great for podcasting and chatting on Skype with a real mic instead of a headset.

[Skully]

I think that's about it. Or sit the assembled foam box on a desk/table and put a mini mic stand inside. I imagined these things as a portable option to a real sound booth for folks who don't have the space or cash for the real deal.

I have a friend who's recorded voiceover interstitials for network shows with a blanket over her head. This would be a step up, although she might still need the blanket.

[vjf1968]

If you are running a home studio as a business, I can see having a dedicated vocal area and spending the $300 bucks for the Reflexion Filter but if you are just doing demos I could not justify the expenditure. A simple scouting of a flea market or a thrift store you could probably find an old, tri-fold, room divider and cover it with thick carpet, instant vocal booth / gobo.

[popthree]

Originally Posted by Skully

I have a friend who's recorded voiceover interstitials for network shows with a blanket over her head. This would be a step up, although she might still need the blanket.

good one... to resurrect valley girl speak... bag that face

[robbysturgis]

the Feds will come and beat down your door.

[mudbean]

Originally Posted by Daddydex

I don't think GB was talking about egg crates. I think he was talking about a mattress pad that looks like an egg crate. You would see them in nursing homes.

Dan

I would thnk that the blue egg crate foam you see in hospitals would not be dense enough to absorb sound - it's very soft (on purpose - it's for cushioning sore fannies!).

A quick and dirty way of seeing how well something like a particular blanket absorbs sound is to put it over your head and listen to some music - does the blanket muffle the sound? How much? Try this with a home bedding quilt or blanket, and then with a standard mover's quilt - you'll be amazed at the difference.

mud