Home Studio, How to Avoid Bleeding Tracks

[wetland10]

My band is thinking about recording our next project with a "home studio" vs. a professional recording studio. We have an all-in-one Zoom 16 track recorder that we could use. We also have mics, cables, etc. What we don't really know is how to place all of the instruments to avoid the bleeding of the tracks. For example, keeping the guitar amps out of the drum mics, etc.

What are people doing to avoid or at least minimize this issue? We would be recording in a basement and have some room to place amps far enough away from the drum kit, but I don't think that will do it.

One idea I had was to make plexiglass "boxes" to cover the speaker cabinets. We don't want to spend tons of money setting this up. So, who has come up with cheap alternatives that are working out well enough?

Thanks,
Wayne

[getbent]

close mike and avoid omnidirectional mics.

Assume that you won't keep the vocal tracks and you'll re record them with headphones on. Unless you play super, super loud it should be okay...

[wierdOne]

The plexiglass is a good idea.... but...

In one of the bands I was in, we made some REALLY cheap baffle boxes... to put on around the guitar amps....

we built rectangular boxes with 4 sides, and a lid we'd place on top (to be able to make it easy to dial in the amp settings and reposition the mic.)...

the sides were made out of 1" thick MDF with 1" thick styrafoam screwed to the inside of the box... then we glued egg carton looking foam to the styrafoam... (using silicone caulk so the styrafoam didn't melt)....

so.. there were 3 layers...

The outside layer... MDF...
Middle layer... styrafoam board.....
inside... Egg Carton looking grey soundproofing foam...

all that stuff you can get at Home Depot for cheap..... and they work GREAT.... just remember... you need a lid to be able to make amp and mic adjustments... 4 sides and a lid....

oh yeah... don't make the box too snug.. you're tubes will melt the foam.. :)

and the longer you make the boxes the more options you have with mic'ing the amp... we made our boxes 6 feet long by 3 feet wide by 3 feet high.... and ended up using two SM57's... one right off the speaker cones... and one 6 feet back...

really didn't make that much difference in the sound.. but it gave us some cool stereo panning options.... :)

the Bass Player just used a line 6 POD... and we mic'd the drummer.... virtually no bleed through... and i had my amp cranked... :)

good luck man...

[Tim Armstrong]

Originally Posted by wierdOne

The plexiglass is a good idea.... but...

In one of the bands I was in, we made some REALLY cheap baffle boxes... to put on top of the guitar amps....

Amen!!! I've used the exact same kind of thing, it works very well.

A friend actually uses an old refrigerator as an isolation box.

Slightly less effective, but certainly helpful, is the old studio standby, the "gobo", basically a sound-absorbing panel in between things being mic-ed.

Blankets work well for this, too. I stole an idea from another site, building a frame from PVC pipe to hang blankets to work as gobos...

Microphones are generally directional, and it helps to aim them so that they pick up what you want them to hear, and their null areas are pointed towards what you DON'T want them to pick up!

Cheers, Tim

[winny pooh]

Positioning and dynamic mics. You can face the amps towards the drums and having the mics for each source facing away from each other will help as mics are least sensitive to background sound that is 180 degrees away.
The overheads for the drums will probably be condensers so you may have to have them in front of the drums facing the diaphragm towards the cymbals as they are the most sensitive. Keep the drums away from the wall or make sure that the wall is absorptive so that the reflections of the other sources don't enter your mics in that way. With a close miked amp and a dynamic mic, bleed is very minimal on guitar sources.
The process matters, you could try the common practice of laying drums and bass down first so that there will be no guitar bleed if you do choose to cut and paste.

BUT, remember that if you are tight enough to record the band as a whole then bleed is cool and the vibe from playing will be great. Have fun and report back when you have some tracks down.

[wetland10]

These are some good ideas, thanks. it seems that anything that will muffle the sound between sources, and how you position the mics, will greatly impact the recording.

Wayne

[sax4blues]

You might want to consider other spaces in your home, not just the basement. We position ourselves around a bedroom/family room/garage area in my home. We put the amps in separate rooms and close the doors. This way we have a lot of flexibility for mic placement, both near and far. Even if you set up in the basement, run the amps upstairs.

[nicnite]

Good suggestions already about how to reduce bleed.

Consider also that bleed can be a GOOD thing. You might be surprised at how many classic albums (especially rock and jazz albums) have bleed all over the tracks. Often, well managed bleed can add ambiance and even positively affect timbre and freq. response.

I like to think more in terms of "managing bleed" reducing or eliminating it only when it's a problem. For a live feel, set up for a really nice sound in the room, and use a few baffles here and there, mainly to prevent too much guitar, keys, and bass from getting into the drum overheads.

Consider that for most live-based styles, the absolutely most important factor in a successful recording is a good performance. While great records are cut one track at a time, if you're going for a more live feel, having a situation where the players can really hear each other well, and respond to real dynamics, is usually much more important than reducing bleed.

I've done a bunch of live in the studio neo-soul albums where there was significant bass and guitar bleed into the drum overheads. Often this was part of the bass tone in the mix. We even sometimes used vocal takes that had the whole band bleeding into the track. We chose to do this for sonic reasons, sometimes due to lack of space, but most of all to get a good, dynamic, live feel in the performance with the band all close together, with no headphones.

With overheads (which are the main problem for bleed since they aren't right up on the source) you have the option to roll off all the bottom to deal with bass bleed. Depending on your style, you can also opt to close-mic the cymbals individually to reduce bleed instead of using overheads.

Keeping the overall band volume fairly low goes a long way toward reducing bleed as well.

At this link you'll find a bunch of tracks done in very small (untreated) rooms, with the entire band playing live and tons of bleed on every track. Check out "Rainy Day Special" where even the lead vocal is live with the band, and "Surrender" where everything except for a few guitar overdubs was cut live in an elementary school classroom.

http://nickjaffe.com/music-group-4.html

Just Nick

[wetland10]

Originally Posted by nicnite

Good suggestions already about how to reduce bleed.

Consider also that bleed can be a GOOD thing. You might be surprised at how many classic albums (especially rock and jazz albums) have bleed all over the tracks. Often, well managed bleed can add ambiance and even positively affect timbre and freq. response.

I like to think more in terms of "managing bleed" reducing or eliminating it only when it's a problem. For a live feel, set up for a really nice sound in the room, and use a few baffles here and there, mainly to prevent too much guitar, keys, and bass from getting into the drum overheads.

Consider that for most live-based styles, the absolutely most important factor in a successful recording is a good performance. While great records are cut one track at a time, if you're going for a more live feel, having a situation where the players can really hear each other well, and respond to real dynamics, is usually much more important than reducing bleed.

I've done a bunch of live in the studio neo-soul albums where there was significant bass and guitar bleed into the drum overheads. Often this was part of the bass tone in the mix. We even sometimes used vocal takes that had the whole band bleeding into the track. We chose to do this for sonic reasons, sometimes due to lack of space, but most of all to get a good, dynamic, live feel in the performance with the band all close together, with no headphones.

With overheads (which are the main problem for bleed since they aren't right up on the source) you have the option to roll off all the bottom to deal with bass bleed. Depending on your style, you can also opt to close-mic the cymbals individually to reduce bleed instead of using overheads.

Keeping the overall band volume fairly low goes a long way toward reducing bleed as well.

At this link you'll find a bunch of tracks done in very small (untreated) rooms, with the entire band playing live and tons of bleed on every track. Check out "Rainy Day Special" where even the lead vocal is live with the band, and "Surrender" where everything except for a few guitar overdubs was cut live in an elementary school classroom.

http://nickjaffe.com/music-group-4.html

Just Nick

Thanks for the information, this is quite helpful as well. I had thought that bleed would have an impact on the ability to overdub because you would still hear the original source through the drum track. Maybe that isn't so much the case?

Wayne

[octatonic]

There are lots of techniques for managing bleed but I assure you plexi-glass boxes are not one of them. Or MDF.
All you end up with is an extremely closed sound with lots of awful resonance at the resonant frequency of the materials used.
Styrofoam is completely useless.

Hypercardioid and Supercardioid mics are best when micing multiple cabs in one room- they are more directional than regular cardioid mics, hypercardioid being the narrowest.
The placement of the amps, drum kit and mics is the key.

What overheads are you using?
What Snare mics? Kick mics? Hihat? Toms?

If you give me more info I can make suggestions.
What style of music?
You can do all this with technique, you don't need to spend money on solutions (that won't work anyway).
What are the room dimensions?
Do you have any outboard?

One of the simplest ways to manage this is going to be to scratch guitar tracks with a DI'ed POD or similar sim and then re-track with real amps once you've done the drums.
There are a lot of other ways to manage it but I'll need more info before I can comment.

[nicnite]

I had thought that bleed would have an impact on the ability to overdub because you would still hear the original source through the drum track. Maybe that isn't so much the case?

Well, yes, if you are planning to redo your basic tracks, it can be a problem. I was mostly talking about a production style where you record your basic tracks as a band, and overdub additional parts. For many bands I find it's really preferable to get as much down live as a unit as possible, but tastes and styles vary.

n

[wetland10]

Originally Posted by nicnite

Well, yes, if you are planning to redo your basic tracks, it can be a problem. I was mostly talking about a production style where you record your basic tracks as a band, and overdub additional parts. For many bands I find it's really preferable to get as much down live as a unit as possible, but tastes and styles vary.

n

This is how we like to record, but sometimes it takes a few takes to get it right. Then we overdub an instrument and vocals here and there, sometimes A guitar solo. But, we are a bluesy rock bandand want to capture a live feel anyway. We have sort of a 60s British blues/rock band sound (think Stones, Faces, etc.).

Wayne

[nicnite]

Cool. Then I'd think the live in one room approach would work really well for that type of vibe. Just make sure your vocalist(s) don't bleed too much into the drum mics so you can overdub vocals freely, and you should be cool. Then the thing is to get a smoking hot take--a few mistakes aren't important if the take is hot.

n

[wetland10]

Originally Posted by nicnite

Cool. Then I'd think the live in one room approach would work really well for that type of vibe. Just make sure your vocalist(s) don't bleed too much into the drum mics so you can overdub vocals freely, and you should be cool. Then the thing is to get a smoking hot take--a few mistakes aren't important if the take is hot.

n

Thanks for the information. Definitely important to have a good take. We will try to get it together at some point. Should be fun and interesting.

Wayne

[wierdOne]

Originally Posted by octatonic

You can do all this with technique, you don't need to spend money on solutions (that won't work anyway).

What doesn't work for you, is another guitar players standard operating procedure.

there are no definitives while talking about music (or the recording of it).

[octatonic]

Originally Posted by wierdOne

What doesn't work for you, is another guitar players standard operating procedure.

there are no definitives while talking about music (or the recording of it).

Whilst there are no absolutes, you can't beat physics.

[Tim Armstrong]

I have used isolation boxes with good results.

I have used putting the amps in other rooms with good results.

I have used gobos and blankets with good results.

It pays to TRY stuff and make adjustments as needed...

Cheers, Tim

[sax4blues]

Originally Posted by nicnite

Cool. Then I'd think the live in one room approach would work really well for that type of vibe. Just make sure your vocalist(s) don't bleed too much into the drum mics so you can overdub vocals freely, and you should be cool. Then the thing is to get a smoking hot take--a few mistakes aren't important if the take is hot.n

We use headphones so the band is in one room with the drummer and the amps are cranked in other rooms. As said, watch the vocals in the overheads.

[davidge1]

Years ago, my band decided to rent a mixer and some mics and record a demo with a home reel to reel deck. We were in a very small rehearsal space and had no baffles... we also played REALLY loud.

If there was any leakage, you couldn't tell. The recording sounded much better than any studio we paid for (low end studios, I admit). I wouldn't worry about leakage.

[wetland10]

I may try the "moving blankets" approach and put them between the two guitar amps. Then just sing a scratch vocal track very low and that should keep it out of the overheard drum mics. Trial and error. Thanks for the thoughts.

Wayne