heaven/hell axis: hardware outruns software (Mac)

woodman · May 27th, 2008, 09:52 PM

got my economic incentive check from Uncle Sam today, and decided to do my patriotic chore to support the American Way ... bought a 22" Acer monitor (on sale at $199) for the Woodshed.

to review, i'm running two G4 systems -- one on System X with all my main-strain apps including GarageBand, and a dedicated ProTools 5.1 machine on System 9. (all my tunes are on an external Firewire HD.) fired up GB and was elated at the spacious real estate! yeah baby!

totally stoked, i cranked up the PT machine and got ... a floating box telling me, "Input Not Supported"! AAAAARRRRGGHHHHH! after resisting the urge to slit my throat and stick my head in the toilet, i tried to coolly grasp the situation.

y'all help me understand if i'm reading it right: my guess is that this monitor needs OS X to do business. so the big questions are these:

will PT 5.1 run on any version of System X, like 10.1 or 10.2? or am i screwed?
will this monitor (Acer 2216Wbd) run on ANY version of System X, even the earlier ones? or am i screwed?
worst of all: if i have to upgrade the system to X, what will i be looking at with the cascading expenses of other software upgrades? will my plug-ins still run? will the 001 interface still work? or am i screwed?

i think i might could dig into the support sites and find the answers to 1 & 2, but i'm hoping some of you guys might offer some educated guesses as to No. 3. i knew running PT on an antiquated system would cause trouble some day, but i didn't think it'd be today!

graphs · May 27th, 2008, 10:27 PM

i was years behind the switch to OSX for this very reason. my Logic 4.5 and all the plug-ins would not run on X so i kept with 9.2 until i changed computers. can't say with certainty that it's the same situation for ProTools but it is a possibility...

another thing you may want to look at is whether it's actually PT that doesn't support the second monitor or if maybe your graphics card does not have enough juice to power two monitors.

woodman · May 27th, 2008, 11:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by graphs

maybe your graphics card does not have enough juice to power two monitors.

nono, it's just one monitor -- i switch it back and forth between computers. to me, "Input Not Supported" from the monitor means it doesn't like the system. of course, i've been wrong before!

Tdot · May 27th, 2008, 11:20 PM

That's an odd message, but shouldn't be a system problem. The older video cards may not support WUXGA resolution. The advantage CRT's have over LCD's is variable resolution settings. Most LCD's have a native resolution, and may work under a couple standard sizes for games.

I don't remember which card is in the G4 tower, but they were before LCD's and widescreen's were common.

woodman · May 27th, 2008, 11:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tdot

That's an odd message, but shouldn't be a system problem. The older video cards may not support WUXGA resolution. The advantage CRT's have over LCD's is variable resolution settings. Most LCD's have a native resolution, and may work under a couple standard sizes for games.

I don't remember which card is in the G4 tower, but they were before LCD's and widescreen's were common.

right, but my previous LCD monitor -- a 19" Norwood, of all off-brands -- worked just fine. this 22" has plenty of resolution flexibility, but the computer doesn't appear to be seeing the monitor.

of course, you've got a point on looking at the video card -- it may not be the same one that's in my main computer, which sees the monitor just fine. (by the way, the two machines are identical Quicksilver G4s.)

Tdot · May 28th, 2008, 12:18 AM

I think there were about 6 of the Quicksilver models. Standard VRAM at the time was 32 (1920x1200) or 64mb, that should be enough, unless they don't support widescreens.

woodman · May 28th, 2008, 12:30 AM

six Quicksilver models? i had no idea. the only thing i'm sure of is, these are pre-mirror door. yeah, they're old-timey -- way back five or so years ago!

i'll see if the video card in the one that works has been upgraded.

Tdot · May 28th, 2008, 12:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by woodman

six Quicksilver models? i had no idea. the only thing i'm sure of is, these are pre-mirror door. yeah, they're old-timey -- way back five or so years ago!

HaHa, my Dual G5 tower is 5 years old! I keep looking at the new ones, but there's nothing wrong with the G5. I still have a pair of Blue G3 towers (retired, last running OSX).

The QS were made around 2001-2002, still great machines. I remember the QS started at 733mhz and ended at 1,000mhz dual CPU. Then the Mirror Doors showed up.

getbent · May 28th, 2008, 01:01 AM

oh man. contact the manufacturer and see if they offer video drivers for OS9.

back then there were actually drivers that manufacturers provided... (especially for 'funky' monitors.)

your other questions end up being beside the point. You are running the old version of PT which runs great on the old OS. You might be able to run PT in classic mode in OS X but running an old version of OSX will just saddle you with different problems that will provide misery. Your best bet would be, if you can't find a driver for the new monitor, find an older CRT in good shape (they are all over) or a flat screen that had the drivers included in OS9. Just remember OS9 is 8 years old. 8.

Running 0S 9 in emulation would be a nightmare, I wouldn't recommend it at all especially on an older, slower machine.

I think the video card you have on that G4 had an ADC connection as well.. if so, (let me know) I'll look around for an old flat screen (apple has made flat screens for years--like 10)....

woodman · May 28th, 2008, 11:33 AM

yeah, running in emulation would be saying, "beat me like a yellow dog!" nothing i can find indicates that PT 5.1 (also 8 years old!) would run on System X anyway, so i've discarded that notion.

however, the fact that this monitor runs on one Quicksilver and not the other has me convinced i can find a solution ... i will try to contact Acer to see what the situation is with System 9.

meanwhile, just out of curiosity, i might try booting the system 9 machine with the old monitor, resetting the video to 1024x768 @ 60hz (a nearly universally compatible setting), then see if the new monitor works at that resolution. as i now understand it, the monitor should not be aware of the system version... it only cares that it is getting a video image of an acceptable resolution, right?

anyway, i'm gonna slog forward on it, because my whole reason for getting the new monitor was to have wide screen for both recording programs. studio-wise, seems like every time i get out of one mess, i get into another!

woodman · May 28th, 2008, 04:49 PM

hooked up the old monitor, set the video to 1024x768, shut it down. plugged in new monitor, rebooted, and this time, the new monitor showed up -- got the startup screen, then it blinked out to the "Input Not Supported" floating box. tried a higher resolution (think it was 1600x1200) and it loaded extensions and got all the way to the desktop before blinking out to "Input Not Supported" box. can't figure why it gets that far, then craps out ... ???

meanwhile, gotta see what the monitor support folks have to say.

Tdot · May 28th, 2008, 06:56 PM

Can the new monitor use "non"-widescreen (4x3) format?

woodman · May 29th, 2008, 12:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tdot

Can the new monitor use "non"-widescreen (4x3) format?

jeez, i have no idea. all i could dig up online today was a cursory manual that didn't tell me much, and a wealth of sites where i could download drivers for Windows XP. no help there. hard to imagine that they don't support Mac at all, but i'm not finding anything. it still baffles the hell outa me that the monitor works with one Quicksilver and not the other.

your original reply pointed to the video card -- so i got an email in to the guy who hot-rodded my original QS asking if he upgraded the card, no reply yet. as far as i know, the PT machine is stock, but i'll run down the guy we got it from and verify that.

Tdot · May 29th, 2008, 12:14 AM

Go up to the apple in the menu bar on the OSX Mac,

click About This Mac
then click the "More Info" button

That brings up the System Profiler.

under hardware select Graphics/Displays

That should give you info on what card you have.

octatonic · May 29th, 2008, 06:07 AM

Try holding the shift key down then you boot.

Also try command/alt/p/r keys when you boot to zap the Preference Ram.

woodman · May 29th, 2008, 01:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tdot

Go up to the apple in the menu bar on the OSX Mac,

click About This Mac
then click the "More Info" button

That brings up the System Profiler.

under hardware select Graphics/Displays

That should give you info on what card you have.

on my main machine (the one that works with the monitor), slot 1 is NVIDIA GeForce2 MX.

on the PT/System 9 machine, slot 1 is ATY,BlueStoneParent.

don't know the implications of this, but obviously you know more about it than me!

woodman · May 29th, 2008, 04:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by octatonic

Try holding the shift key down then you boot.

Also try command/alt/p/r keys when you boot to zap the Preference Ram.

Jim, tried both of these, but both times, it went directly to the "Input Not Supported" floating box ... didn't even get the startup screen and extensions loaded.

the only drivers i can find are Windows. wonder if i should look for the same type of card (NVIDIA GeForce2 MX) as in the machine that works ....

getbent · May 29th, 2008, 04:28 PM

I think we should go back to the "I just got my incentive check, what should I buy?" part.

woodman · May 29th, 2008, 05:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by getbent

I think we should go back to the "I just got my incentive check, what should I buy?" part.

the nuclear option! at least i kept all packaging and receipts ... of course, there's not a prayer of getting into another wide display at $200 pazoozas. reckon it's like they say, ya get what ya pay for!

octatonic · May 29th, 2008, 07:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by woodman

Jim, tried both of these, but both times, it went directly to the "Input Not Supported" floating box ... didn't even get the startup screen and extensions loaded.

the only drivers i can find are Windows. wonder if i should look for the same type of card (NVIDIA GeForce2 MX) as in the machine that works ....

I would say that is pretty definitive then...

Tdot · May 29th, 2008, 10:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by woodman

on my main machine (the one that works with the monitor), slot 1 is NVIDIA GeForce2 MX.

on the PT/System 9 machine, slot 1 is ATY,BlueStoneParent.

The second card is an ATI Radeon 7500. This card has 2 ports (as GB said) and should support dual monitors. However ATI(AMD) hasn't continued support for OS9. Unfortunately, I think you need the driver for the card, not the driver for the monitor.

Another thought: are you using a DVI cable or the VGA cable? I don't know if it would make a difference but the DVI should be better with the LCD.

getbent · May 30th, 2008, 03:21 AM

Tdot, yeah... I kinda think that was the ADC era.. so he'd need an ADC to either DVI connector.... and, if memory serves... the ports were either or not both... I kind of remember trying to get that going and I found out that the card didn't light up both ports just one or the other...

you're right, as well, about the card... but usually the monitor manufacturer would produce the disk with the drivers...

I kinda think this is throwing good energy after a convenience that isn't.

I'd use the new monitor on the OS X computer and put an old monitor on the borrowed machine. Old big monitors are cheap used.. check out lowendmac or small dog or ebay...

May 27th, 2008, 09:52 PM	#1 (permalink)
woodman Poster Extraordinaire Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Mint Hill, NC Age: 62 Posts: 5,887	heaven/hell axis: hardware outruns software (Mac) got my economic incentive check from Uncle Sam today, and decided to do my patriotic chore to support the American Way ... bought a 22" Acer monitor (on sale at $199) for the Woodshed. to review, i'm running two G4 systems -- one on System X with all my main-strain apps including GarageBand, and a dedicated ProTools 5.1 machine on System 9. (all my tunes are on an external Firewire HD.) fired up GB and was elated at the spacious real estate! yeah baby! totally stoked, i cranked up the PT machine and got ... a floating box telling me, "Input Not Supported"! AAAAARRRRGGHHHHH! after resisting the urge to slit my throat and stick my head in the toilet, i tried to coolly grasp the situation. y'all help me understand if i'm reading it right: my guess is that this monitor needs OS X to do business. so the big questions are these: will PT 5.1 run on any version of System X, like 10.1 or 10.2? or am i screwed? will this monitor (Acer 2216Wbd) run on ANY version of System X, even the earlier ones? or am i screwed? worst of all: if i have to upgrade the system to X, what will i be looking at with the cascading expenses of other software upgrades? will my plug-ins still run? will the 001 interface still work? or am i screwed? i think i might could dig into the support sites and find the answers to 1 & 2, but i'm hoping some of you guys might offer some educated guesses as to No. 3. i knew running PT on an antiquated system would cause trouble some day, but i didn't think it'd be today! __________________ Truth is stranger than fact ... www.myspace.com/woodymitchellmusic BAND PAGES: www.myspace.com/stragglerswing (Stragglers - Western Swing) www.myspace.com/loafersgloryband (Loafers Glory - '70s country-rock)

May 27th, 2008, 11:20 PM	#4 (permalink)
Tdot Friend of Leo's Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Back of the Wasatch, UT Posts: 3,681 55 Photos	That's an odd message, but shouldn't be a system problem. The older video cards may not support WUXGA resolution. The advantage CRT's have over LCD's is variable resolution settings. Most LCD's have a native resolution, and may work under a couple standard sizes for games. I don't remember which card is in the G4 tower, but they were before LCD's and widescreen's were common. __________________ And now for some feedback: EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

May 28th, 2008, 12:18 AM	#6 (permalink)
Tdot Friend of Leo's Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Back of the Wasatch, UT Posts: 3,681 55 Photos	I think there were about 6 of the Quicksilver models. Standard VRAM at the time was 32 (1920x1200) or 64mb, that should be enough, unless they don't support widescreens. __________________ And now for some feedback: EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

May 28th, 2008, 12:30 AM	#7 (permalink)
woodman Poster Extraordinaire Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Mint Hill, NC Age: 62 Posts: 5,887	six Quicksilver models? i had no idea. the only thing i'm sure of is, these are pre-mirror door. yeah, they're old-timey -- way back five or so years ago! i'll see if the video card in the one that works has been upgraded. __________________ Truth is stranger than fact ... www.myspace.com/woodymitchellmusic BAND PAGES: www.myspace.com/stragglerswing (Stragglers - Western Swing) www.myspace.com/loafersgloryband (Loafers Glory - '70s country-rock)

May 28th, 2008, 01:01 AM	#9 (permalink)
getbent Moderator Doctor of Teleocity Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: San Benito County, California Posts: 10,015 37 Photos	oh man. contact the manufacturer and see if they offer video drivers for OS9. back then there were actually drivers that manufacturers provided... (especially for 'funky' monitors.) your other questions end up being beside the point. You are running the old version of PT which runs great on the old OS. You might be able to run PT in classic mode in OS X but running an old version of OSX will just saddle you with different problems that will provide misery. Your best bet would be, if you can't find a driver for the new monitor, find an older CRT in good shape (they are all over) or a flat screen that had the drivers included in OS9. Just remember OS9 is 8 years old. 8. Running 0S 9 in emulation would be a nightmare, I wouldn't recommend it at all especially on an older, slower machine. I think the video card you have on that G4 had an ADC connection as well.. if so, (let me know) I'll look around for an old flat screen (apple has made flat screens for years--like 10).... __________________ 'never pet a burning dog'

May 27th, 2008, 10:27 PM	#2 (permalink)
graphs Tele-Holic Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Toronto Posts: 936	i was years behind the switch to OSX for this very reason. my Logic 4.5 and all the plug-ins would not run on X so i kept with 9.2 until i changed computers. can't say with certainty that it's the same situation for ProTools but it is a possibility... another thing you may want to look at is whether it's actually PT that doesn't support the second monitor or if maybe your graphics card does not have enough juice to power two monitors.

May 28th, 2008, 11:33 AM	#10 (permalink)
woodman Poster Extraordinaire Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Mint Hill, NC Age: 62 Posts: 5,887	yeah, running in emulation would be saying, "beat me like a yellow dog!" nothing i can find indicates that PT 5.1 (also 8 years old!) would run on System X anyway, so i've discarded that notion. however, the fact that this monitor runs on one Quicksilver and not the other has me convinced i can find a solution ... i will try to contact Acer to see what the situation is with System 9. meanwhile, just out of curiosity, i might try booting the system 9 machine with the old monitor, resetting the video to 1024x768 @ 60hz (a nearly universally compatible setting), then see if the new monitor works at that resolution. as i now understand it, the monitor should not be aware of the system version... it only cares that it is getting a video image of an acceptable resolution, right? anyway, i'm gonna slog forward on it, because my whole reason for getting the new monitor was to have wide screen for both recording programs. studio-wise, seems like every time i get out of one mess, i get into another! __________________ Truth is stranger than fact ... www.myspace.com/woodymitchellmusic BAND PAGES: www.myspace.com/stragglerswing (Stragglers - Western Swing) www.myspace.com/loafersgloryband (Loafers Glory - '70s country-rock)

May 28th, 2008, 04:49 PM	#11 (permalink)
woodman Poster Extraordinaire Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Mint Hill, NC Age: 62 Posts: 5,887	hooked up the old monitor, set the video to 1024x768, shut it down. plugged in new monitor, rebooted, and this time, the new monitor showed up -- got the startup screen, then it blinked out to the "Input Not Supported" floating box. tried a higher resolution (think it was 1600x1200) and it loaded extensions and got all the way to the desktop before blinking out to "Input Not Supported" box. can't figure why it gets that far, then craps out ... ??? meanwhile, gotta see what the monitor support folks have to say. __________________ Truth is stranger than fact ... www.myspace.com/woodymitchellmusic BAND PAGES: www.myspace.com/stragglerswing (Stragglers - Western Swing) www.myspace.com/loafersgloryband (Loafers Glory - '70s country-rock)

May 28th, 2008, 06:56 PM	#12 (permalink)
Tdot Friend of Leo's Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Back of the Wasatch, UT Posts: 3,681 55 Photos	Can the new monitor use "non"-widescreen (4x3) format? __________________ And now for some feedback: EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

May 29th, 2008, 12:14 AM	#14 (permalink)
Tdot Friend of Leo's Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Back of the Wasatch, UT Posts: 3,681 55 Photos	Go up to the apple in the menu bar on the OSX Mac, click About This Mac then click the "More Info" button That brings up the System Profiler. under hardware select Graphics/Displays That should give you info on what card you have. __________________ And now for some feedback: EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

May 29th, 2008, 06:07 AM	#15 (permalink)
octatonic Tele-Afflicted Join Date: May 2007 Location: An Australian in London. Posts: 1,649	Try holding the shift key down then you boot. Also try command/alt/p/r keys when you boot to zap the Preference Ram. __________________ "A jazz musician is a juggler who uses harmonies instead of oranges." Benny Green

May 29th, 2008, 04:28 PM	#18 (permalink)
getbent Moderator Doctor of Teleocity Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: San Benito County, California Posts: 10,015 37 Photos	I think we should go back to the "I just got my incentive check, what should I buy?" part. __________________ 'never pet a burning dog'

May 30th, 2008, 03:21 AM	#22 (permalink)
getbent Moderator Doctor of Teleocity Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: San Benito County, California Posts: 10,015 37 Photos	Tdot, yeah... I kinda think that was the ADC era.. so he'd need an ADC to either DVI connector.... and, if memory serves... the ports were either or not both... I kind of remember trying to get that going and I found out that the card didn't light up both ports just one or the other... you're right, as well, about the card... but usually the monitor manufacturer would produce the disk with the drivers... I kinda think this is throwing good energy after a convenience that isn't. I'd use the new monitor on the OS X computer and put an old monitor on the borrowed machine. Old big monitors are cheap used.. check out lowendmac or small dog or ebay... __________________ 'never pet a burning dog'