one foot in each world (GB/PT)

[woodman]

through a bizarre fluke of luck, a good friend has parked his ProTools LE rig here at the Woodshed indefinitely (v. 5.1, Digi001, G4, System 9, some good plug-ins). so i'm in a state of DAW culture shock.

upgrading to System X and the cascading upgrade costs to everything else isn't an option. i just look at this as an opportunity to learn the software, since it's the lingua franca of pro audio.

i'll keep my GarageBand rig set up for when i actually want to DO something, while i slog thru the density of PT ... it's like being on Jupiter ... ohhh, the gravity ... the sun is so far away! i've crawled through the online manual, lurked quite a bit at The Womb, laid down a goofy tune to experiment with (seven tracks of holy hell). from here, it's just a matter of taking the time to learn a deep program.

the more immediate task is revamping the studio to take advantage of the available resources. sharing the monitor amp between systems should just be a matter of getting a box with one stereo channel in, two stereo channels out, right? or a high-quality Y-cord?

the more mysterious question to me is this: will running through two preamp stages muck it up?

the reason i ask: my GB interface is an Alesis Multimix 12 Firewire. at my stage of digital recording, i'm pleased as punch with it (a product of TDPRI generosity as chronicled in the Bad Dog). could i take the mixer stage and run it as a line out to the 001? if the two preamps play nice, it would add another level of control and alleviate the need for a Y-cord.

i know the real answer to this question is, try it and see. but i wanted to get some informed opinions before tearing into the morass. where's that dang Ben Harmless when ya really need him?

[garytelecastor]

Remember when a fuzz face was high-tech?????

[jefrs]

Sometimes I miss the simplicity of the 4-track tape, how on earth did we manage...

[woodman]

me too, i wore the heads of a Tascam four-track down to a nub. but that was then, this is now.

anybody got any insights?

[Big John]

I use a little Mbox and connect that to 'DigitalPerformer' but sometimes if i just want to knock together a real quick idea i'll just pull out the cables and work with GarageBand and the mini sockets on the Mac, because i will just be working on my own i hook up headphones and the Pod and use the GB loops and away i go.
I have never figured a way of using both because normally i would be using DP.
I think Octatonic uses Logic on a Mac so might have some input.

[octatonic]

Hiya,

Yes, I have Logic and Protools HD running here.
It has been a while since I used a 001, but here is the skinny.

Chaining two preamps serially is not at all desirable- I wouldn't do it under any circumstances.
The purpose of a preamp is to take mic level up to line level.
One preamp does that well enough.
If you are using a preamp to impart a sonic signature then you also only need to use one of them- this isn't like mixing paint and to be honest the 001 preamps are a clean tone- you don't get a lot of mojo from them (although they are pretty quiet and accurate).

The good news is you don't really need to chain preamps.
Aside from the two mic preamps you also have 6 (I think) line inputs.

Plug your mic into the mixer's preamp input, then take a recording (or fx aux) out to the back of the 001 (line input).
Ot do it the other way and plug directly into the 001's preamps and then take a line out into the mixer for monitoring alone.

As far as using your monitors with two systems- there are a few options.

1. Use your mixer. Just take stereo line out of the 001 into the mixer.
2. Use a monitor controller. I have an SPL MTC2381- it is excellent, although there are a lot of options these days.

Don't use a Y cable.

[woodman]

many thanks, Jim -- i'll give that a go and see how it works.

meanwhile, it's back to learning the ropes. i gotta get a book ... can any of you PT guys recommend one?

[octatonic]

Originally Posted by woodman

many thanks, Jim -- i'll give that a go and see how it works.

meanwhile, it's back to learning the ropes. i gotta get a book ... can any of you PT guys recommend one?

No worries.

Yes- 'Musician's Guide to Protools" is excellent.
Written by John Keane if I remember correctly.

[woodman]

Originally Posted by octatonic

Plug your mic into the mixer's preamp input, then take a recording (or fx aux) out to the back of the 001 (line input).

OK, delving into this, my mixer output options are:

* digital out (S/PDIF) -- could this be run into the 001 S/PDIF input?

* aux returns A & B -- A has a pre/post-fader option, but B is always post-fader. dunno if each output is stereo, mono or what.

* alt 3/4 out -- the mixer's extra stereo bus ... has a fader in the master section.

which of these would be likely to work best?
if the answer's not S/PDIF, would the sends go into the main inputs of the 001?

sorry, having a hard time wrapping my head around it all!
...........
using monitors with two systems:

Originally Posted by octatonic

1. Use your mixer. Just take stereo line out of the 001 into the mixer.

so, take 001 main outputs L & R into the mixer, right?
would they go into stereo channel inputs or return inputs?

i apologize for these hardware-impaired questions. as an engineer, i'm struggling to reach kindergarten level!

[octatonic]

Originally Posted by woodman

OK, delving into this, my mixer output options are:

* digital out (S/PDIF) -- could this be run into the 001 S/PDIF input?

* aux returns A & B -- A has a pre/post-fader option, but B is always post-fader. dunno if each output is stereo, mono or what.

* alt 3/4 out -- the mixer's extra stereo bus ... has a fader in the master section.

which of these would be likely to work best?
if the answer's not S/PDIF, would the sends go into the main inputs of the 001?

sorry, having a hard time wrapping my head around it all!
...........
using monitors with two systems:



so, take 001 main outputs L & R into the mixer, right?
would they go into stereo channel inputs or return inputs?

i apologize for these hardware-impaired questions. as an engineer, i'm struggling to reach kindergarten level!

Ok- great info above- this is how to do it.

Use Alt3/4 as you main mixer -> Protools send.
Call it the 'Recording bus' (in your mind... )
Connect it to the 3rd and 4th input (ie the 1st and 2nd LINE LEVEL input on the 001).

You can then send (I am guessing with the press of the alt3/4 button on each channel strip, depending on the mixer architecture) a particular channel TO the Protools inputs which will then be monitored back through the output of the Dig001, which should be connected to a stereo channel input (or two mono hard panned) on the mixer as well.

This is how a mixer is designed to work in a studio and the whole purpose of having ALT3/4- it is a recording send.
Bigger mixers have 8 or more recording busses (you might have heard of the Mackie 8 bus range? They have 8 recording busses for tracking 8 tracks at a time).

You can also use aux sends for additional simultaneous tracking- just connect a mixer aux send to an additional Dig001 input and monitor via the outputs.

A word on latency.
The dig001 is a pretty old product- you might find the level of latency (the delay from playing the guitar to hearing it come out of the monitors) unacceptable when routing through the dig001.
If so then do not send the recording output to the dig001 (either mute it or send it to a channel that is not connected to the mixer).
I don't know if your mixer has a button that says something like "Assign to main mix) for the Alt 3/4 channel, I know Mackie do and this is designed to deal with monitoring latency.
Essentially you will hear the ALT3/4 in the stereo output BEFORE it hits the 001 so you can monitor it latency free.
If you do not mute that channel in Protools you will hear a very weird phased sound which is the sum of the dry ALT 3/4 signal mixed with the 001 signal what is going to be delayed a few milliseconds. It won't sound good.

Be careful also not to send the main Protools output back into the ALT3/4 channel or a feedback loop will occur, which will sound worse.

If I have been unclear on any of this, let me know and I'll do my best to help.

[octatonic]

Originally Posted by woodman

so, take 001 main outputs L & R into the mixer, right?
would they go into stereo channel inputs or return inputs?

i apologize for these hardware-impaired questions. as an engineer, i'm struggling to reach kindergarten level!

Into the stereo channel inputs.
The FX returns should be left for any rack FX you might have.

[woodman]

excellent! gonna try that right now, will let you know how it turns out. thanx a bunch, Jim!

[woodman]

Originally Posted by octatonic

If so then do not send the recording output to the dig001 (either mute it or send it to a channel that is not connected to the mixer).
I don't know if your mixer has a button that says something like "Assign to main mix) for the Alt 3/4 channel, ....... If you do not mute that channel in Protools

those were the only parts i was fuzzy on ... but i followed your map and achieved a measure of success.

* mixer Alt 3/4 > 001 inputs 3 & 4 (also labeled Monitor Input).
* 001 Monitor Out L & R > mixer input channel 11/12 (picked it because its fader is right next to the Main Mix and Alt 3/4 faders).
* master section: Alt 3/4 and Alt 3/4 to Mix buttons both enabled.
faders -- channel 11/12, Main Mix and Alt 3/4 all set to unity gain (0).

the monitors worked great on both systems (GB and PT). opened my experimental PT session and it played fine. created a stereo channel (drum machine). it was loud and clear on the monitors, but no meter action in PT. the tracks were record-enabled, and assigned to 001 Stereo 3/4. nothing in the meters, channel or master. tried every possible assign, then let the drum machine run while i punched and tweaked stuff on the mixer, to no avail. recorded a track and it was a flat line.

so i guess the question is, at what level are the mixer and interface failing to communicate? or is it human error in the software/hardware on my part? or both?

[octatonic]

Originally Posted by woodman

those were the only parts i was fuzzy on ... but i followed your map and achieved a measure of success.

* mixer Alt 3/4 > 001 inputs 3 & 4 (also labeled Monitor Input).
* 001 Monitor Out L & R > mixer input channel 11/12 (picked it because its fader is right next to the Main Mix and Alt 3/4 faders).
* master section: Alt 3/4 and Alt 3/4 to Mix buttons both enabled.
faders -- channel 11/12, Main Mix and Alt 3/4 all set to unity gain (0).

the monitors worked great on both systems (GB and PT). opened my experimental PT session and it played fine. created a stereo channel (drum machine). it was loud and clear on the monitors, but no meter action in PT. the tracks were record-enabled, and assigned to 001 Stereo 3/4. nothing in the meters, channel or master. tried every possible assign, then let the drum machine run while i punched and tweaked stuff on the mixer, to no avail. recorded a track and it was a flat line.

so i guess the question is, at what level are the mixer and interface failing to communicate? or is it human error in the software/hardware on my part? or both?

Hmmmm curious.
What channel on the mixer was the drum machine plugged into?
Let's assume this was stereo channel 9/10, ok?
You should press Mute/Alt3/4 for this channel to send the audio to the Alt3/4 bus which should (in REC mode) pass this to Stereo 3/4 input in Protools and come out of the 001 into channel 11/12.
(I would deselect Assign Alt 3/4 to main mix in this instance as you want to hear what is coming out of the interface rather than using the mixer to monitor)

Hopefully you know not to press Alt3/4 button on Stereo channel 11/12 as this would cause a feedback loop in rec mode.

If that doesn't work then let me know- it could be something as simple cabling.
I don't know if you have a digital camera but maybe take a snap of the mixer and the back of the 001 and I can see what the skinny is.

[woodman]

Originally Posted by octatonic

You should press Mute/Alt3/4 for (drum) channel to send the audio to the Alt3/4 bus which should (in REC mode) pass this to Stereo 3/4 input in Protools and come out of the 001 into channel 11/12.

aha! i did NOT have Mute/Alt 3/4 engaged. will try that and report back. if i come up empty, will post some pix.

(I would deselect Assign Alt 3/4 to main mix in this instance as you want to hear what is coming out of the interface rather than using the mixer to monitor)

so, only use Alt 3/4 To Mix for monitoring new tracks over existing tracks?
could i then disable Low-Latency Monitoring in the PT menu? (it apparently takes away some capabilities when previewing plug-ins.)

Hopefully you know not to press Alt3/4 button on Stereo channel 11/12 as this would cause a feedback loop in rec mode.

didn't try it, but thanks for forestalling a train wreck if i'd tried to!

also, assigning tracks within PT: it seems obvious that you'd use Stereo 3/4 for stereo tracks ... would you simply use Mono 3 for mono tracks?

thanks, Jim -- i owe you some tuition!

[woodman]

got 'er fired up -- the Alt 3/4 switch on the channel involved was not engaged. as soon as i hit it, i got a signal in PT, recorded fine.

apparently mono tracks will run when assigned to either Analog 3 or Analog 4.

when Alt 3/4 To Mix was engaged, the signal through the monitors was louder ... is that because it's getting the source plus what's coming back through the 001?

at any rate, i appear to be up and running. appreciate your patience, Jim! got gigs the next two nights, but i'll probably try running some more tracks over the weekend.

[octatonic]

Smashing...
Glad it is all up and running.