Fenders Mexican v American

[ReaL Madras]

There appears to a strategy at Fender to make more and more interesting guitars from their
Mexican factories whilst generally creating a marked difference in their pricing strategy.

It may have happened earlier, but the first guitar that I recall this strategic change was the issue of the Joe Strummer Tele, this reliced guitar was basically a Mexican Tele that was aged but cost about twice the price of a Mexican made standard Tele. I may get some of my numbers wrong, because, I'm going from memory....next up I think were the Road Worn ( they may had come before the JS, but you get what I'm getting at) and more recently the Pawn Shop series which seem to have definitely established Mexican made instruments in a higher price bracket.

Is this a clear strategy by Fender to generally increase the prices of Mexican made instruments or has the quality of the instruments improved so dramatically?

[plymman]

I guess it's just an attempt by Fender to have something available at all price points to capture a wider market and have an even progression through the range.

I've probably missed one or two but i see the progression as modern player - MIM standard - Classic Player - Classic 50's/60's - Roadworn. That takes you from £350 to £650 then you're into the USA build price range.

It's a good way to maximise your market and in the case of the roadworn's, to maximise profit. I'd say the Fender line today is as varied and wide reaching as it's ever been.

[63dot]

I think both has happened.

For an all around guitar, it's hard to beat the reliable MIM Standard Stratocaster and Standard Telecaster and their kudos are proved here and in the world of music. However, with the road worn, vintage series, and blacktops, there is a wide range of choices in a moderate price point.

I love what Fender has done with MIM guitars. In the hands of the right players, they can cover all sonic territory quite nicely and effortlessly. Gibson has their great Epiphone line, ESP has LTD, Ibanez has Chinese and Korean models as affordable alternatives to their high end stuff, and PRS has the SE lines. But nobody comes as close to making prime time, top of the line guitars like Fender does with their MIM vintage series like the '69 Thinline or modder inspired Nashville Telecaster. One could say there's no difference and I can play my original '68 and pretty much transition into a '69 MIM reissue and have the same guitar. It's uncanny and part of it is the current and great MIM quality, but a big part is that they are building bolt on necks and not D'Angelicos or Martin D-45s.

[ReaL Madras]

Originally Posted by 63dot

I think both has happened.

For an all around guitar, it's hard to beat the reliable MIM Standard Stratocaster and Standard Telecaster and their kudos are proved here and in the world of music. However, with the road worn, vintage series, and blacktops, there is a wide range of choices in a moderate price point.

I love what Fender has done with MIM guitars. In the hands of the right players, they can cover all sonic territory quite nicely and effortlessly. Gibson has their great Epiphone line, ESP has LTD, Ibanez has Chinese and Korean models as affordable alternatives to their high end stuff, and PRS has the SE lines. But nobody comes as close to making prime time, top of the line guitars like Fender does with their MIM vintage series like the '69 Thinline or modder inspired Nashville Telecaster. One could say there's no difference and I can play my original '68 and pretty much transition into a '69 MIM reissue and have the same guitar. It's uncanny and part of it is the current and great MIM quality, but a big part is that they are building bolt on necks and not D'Angelicos or Martin D-45s.

Great post, I think that your observations are spot on.

[63dot]

Originally Posted by ReaL Madras

Great post, I think that your observations are spot on.

Thanks.

And I try to write this without being tempted to buy more guitars. I don't need anything Fender has to make me a better player but they make it hard to say no with the amazing offerings these days from the MIM plant(s).

[RevMike]

Originally Posted by 63dot

Thanks.

And I try to write this without being tempted to buy more guitars. I don't need anything Fender has to make me a better player but they make it hard to say no with the amazing offerings these days from the MIM plant(s).

Dang right.

[2blue]

The big problem I have had with the "higher end" MIM guitars is the resale value. I have a Vintage Player practically mint that I just cannot get a decent offer on. I had an MIA standard tele that I purchased for close to the same price that sold quickly and brought decent money.

Go figure . . . .

[Jack FFR1846]

Originally Posted by 2blue

The big problem I have had with the "higher end" MIM guitars is the resale value. I have a Vintage Player practically mint that I just cannot get a decent offer on. I had an MIA standard tele that I purchased for close to the same price that sold quickly and brought decent money.

Go figure . . . .

That's a very good point.

I am one who used to think "oh, big deal...they took a mim standard and slapped a tort pickguard on it and called it a Lone Star". Well, it took actually buying a few used higher end mim strats to realize how much better they were and that they really were worth more. I had a 2010 Lone Star strat that I traded a Godin for and later sold. But it had the real US Texas Specials in it and sure sounded better than any other mim I've owned. I also bought a Jimmie Vaughan, mainly to get the soft V neck. Didn't like the neck as it turned out, but I did like the tex mex pickups better than the ceramics.

I think you guys are seeing what owners of brands other than Fender and Gibson go through selling guitars. Try selling a Godin, Carvin, Music Man, Suhr and to some extent PRS American. People don't know what it is because it's not a strat, tele, sg or Les Paul. And they're afraid of paying too much. The audience is far smaller. Go on craigslist and find a $250 mim and you're good to go, right? But what about the Buddy Guy/Vaughan/Deluxe Players/Classic Players etc. It's not a Toyota Camry, so people don't know how much better they really are and won't pay.

[2blue]

Originally Posted by Jack FFR1846

That's a very good point.

I am one who used to think "oh, big deal...they took a mim standard and slapped a tort pickguard on it and called it a Lone Star". Well, it took actually buying a few used higher end mim strats to realize how much better they were and that they really were worth more. I had a 2010 Lone Star strat that I traded a Godin for and later sold. But it had the real US Texas Specials in it and sure sounded better than any other mim I've owned. I also bought a Jimmie Vaughan, mainly to get the soft V neck. Didn't like the neck as it turned out, but I did like the tex mex pickups better than the ceramics.

I think you guys are seeing what owners of brands other than Fender and Gibson go through selling guitars. Try selling a Godin, Carvin, Music Man, Suhr and to some extent PRS American. People don't know what it is because it's not a strat, tele, sg or Les Paul. And they're afraid of paying too much. The audience is far smaller. Go on craigslist and find a $250 mim and you're good to go, right? But what about the Buddy Guy/Vaughan/Deluxe Players/Classic Players etc. It's not a Toyota Camry, so people don't know how much better they really are and won't pay.

Yep, that will probably eventually change. I bought a MIJ Esquire back in the 80's, added a neck pickup (actually replaced the bridge too as IMHO the electronics. pots switch and all sucked) it was my main player for 20+ years and in a moment of weakness sold it. When I bought it most players thought that the Japanese stuff was junk "not a real Fender". When I sold it I had folks beating down my door to buy it.

[ReaL Madras]

Originally Posted by 2blue

Yep, that will probably eventually change. I bought a MIJ Esquire back in the 80's, added a neck pickup (actually replaced the bridge too as IMHO the electronics. pots switch and all sucked) it was my main player for 20+ years and in a moment of weakness sold it. When I bought it most players thought that the Japanese stuff was junk "not a real Fender". When I sold it I had folks beating down my door to buy it.

Interesting post, one of my Tele's is Korean and my Jaguar is a CIJ, both are quality instruments.

[63dot]

Originally Posted by 2blue

Yep, that will probably eventually change. I bought a MIJ Esquire back in the 80's, added a neck pickup (actually replaced the bridge too as IMHO the electronics. pots switch and all sucked) it was my main player for 20+ years and in a moment of weakness sold it. When I bought it most players thought that the Japanese stuff was junk "not a real Fender". When I sold it I had folks beating down my door to buy it.

Japan had quality guitars and electronics for years before people started to fight over it like they do now. I remember when they were considered good gear for players but never really anything with resale value. Had I known the rush that would come in and try to get original Ibanez Tube Screamers or certain Japanese lawsuit guitars, I would have bought them up. The Yamaha SG-2000s used to be a cheap but good pawnshop buy but are now selling for quite a lot for a used guitar that isn't Gibson or Fender. Where Roland JC-120s were littering used music stores and never moved, I can't find them anymore since people want them. Heck, used Roland Cubes can't stay in stores for long.

And right here in Fenderland, the Japanese Squiers are super hard to find and all considered good years for Fender Inc.

[ludashoeless]

Originally Posted by 2blue

The big problem I have had with the "higher end" MIM guitars is the resale value. I have a Vintage Player practically mint that I just cannot get a decent offer on. I had an MIA standard tele that I purchased for close to the same price that sold quickly and brought decent money.

Go figure . . . .

yup i got my classic 50s with upgraded bridge pup for 325

[Mike Eskimo]

The big problem I have had with the "higher end" MIM guitars is the resale value. I have a Vintage Player practically mint that I just cannot get a decent offer on. I had an MIA standard tele that I purchased for close to the same price that sold quickly and brought decent money.

Go figure . . . .

I have 1st and 2nd year MIM's (MexAmericans) and they generally bring no more money than any year MIM standards.

(Not to incite flame because I have played some I like) but I have played an awful lot of heavy MIA Standards w/ dinky necks - not my favorite combo so I've never pursued them.

In my area MIA Standard Strat and Tele used prices have fallen.

$650 is almost high for a used one here.

JACK - for the 2nd time - where's that JV neck now ?

[studio1087]

Most manufacturing plants place highest value on training and retaining the people who build their core/high end products.

I have always assumed that the CA factory focuses on training and retaining people to build the more expensive USA core guitars while the Mexican factory builds the trendy "soup of the day" guitars that change and change and change.

If you are going to rapidly change less expensive products then you want labor that is less expensive.

As Fender diversifies their offerings they are making some things in Mexico that they can charge more for.

(I think).

[notdave]

Originally Posted by studio1087

Most manufacturing plants place highest value on training and retaining the people who build their core/high end products.

I have always assumed that the CA factory focuses on training and retaining people to build the more expensive USA core guitars while the Mexican factory builds the trendy "soup of the day" guitars that change and change and change.

If you are going to rapidly change less expensive products then you want labor that is less expensive.

As Fender diversifies their offerings they are making some things in Mexico that they can charge more for.

(I think).

You need better trained and adaptable staff if you're going to constantly diversify. Any fool can screw thingummy A to widget B for 30 years without thinking. Having someone who can move between screwing thingummy A to widget B to screwing wotsit C to flange D and back requires a slightly different staff development plan.

[2blue]

Honestly,
It's a money deal On of the biggest way to cut cost (or increase profit margin) is to cut labor cost. In manufacturing there are essentially 2 ways to do this. Cheaper labor or improved efficiency (usually thru automation). Cheaper labor equals cheaper guitars. No reference to quality that is a whole different discussion

[Jakedog]

Just to clarify, the pawnshop guitars are MIJ, not MIM. At least my '72 was MIJ, and so are all the other ones at the local GC. If they have moved production, I had not heard. That would be a shame.

[ReaL Madras]

Originally Posted by Jakedog

Just to clarify, the pawnshop guitars are MIJ, not MIM. At least my '72 was MIJ, and so are all the other ones at the local GC. If they have moved production, I had not heard. That would be a shame.

Ahh, now that puts a bit of a hole in my point. I thought that they were Mexican!

[Jakedog]

As far as the MIM's are concerned on their own, I don't really like 'em. I think the standard series are great little solid guitars for the dough, but they are not up to what I want from an instrument. I've bought loads of them over the years looking for a cheap, solid, reliable, workhorse, and they just aren't worth it. If you like factory setups, they are fine from a playability standpoint, but if you want more, it's gonna cost ya. I've never met a single MIM that didn't need fret and nutwork to accomadate my preferred setup. If you can't do it yourself, that costs money. If you CAN do it yourself, it's a pain in the arse.

I've only had one MIA that had any such issues, and it had a high nut. Easily fixed, and the only one I've ever found with a problem. I can set up those guitars to be absolutely amazing, without having to level frets and dress nuts, every time.

I also much prefer the MIA pickups to the MIM pickups. The MIM pickups I think now, are much better than they used to be, but they still sound clangy and dead to me compared to their US counterparts. i've never owned an MIM I didn't change pickups on. I'm quite happy with American Standard pickups. I've swapped those too, but end up going back top stock almost 100% of the time.

MIA guitars also just feel better to me. More solid. And the shapes and countours, dimensions, etc. seem much more faithful to the early designs. When I pick up an American Standard and play it, it inspires confidence. When I pick up an MIM standard, it feels like a cheap guitar. Not a bad guitar, just not up to par with what I'm used to.

Some people can't tell the difference, and will say the MIM is as good or better than the MIA, I sometimes wish I were one of those people. I could save money for sure. I'm not one of those people though. For me, the differences in feel, playability, and sound are beyond obvious. I could tell blindfolded which was which. So I have to spend the dough. Lukcily for me, in my area, clean late model used Am. Std. guitars are cheap and plentiful. I bought my most recent piece, a 2008 Am. Std. strat in Candy Cola, mint with case, case candy, and everything back a couple of months ago for $600. Now THAT's a lot of bang for the buck. Truthfully though, I'd have no issue paying $1K for new one if I needed one. $1K or close for an MIM though? Never gonna happen. Not ever.

I was in the local GC recently, and saw Indonesian Ibanez guitars for $900. I think that's insane. It just goes to show that American public no longer cares where anything ismade, and probably doesn't even check. When I can get a brand new American Fender for $1K, with a hardshell case, I cannot see paying $900 ofr an inferior product made offshore. It just makes no freakin' sense in my mind. I kind of feel the same way about MIM guitars. When I can get clean used MIA guitars for the money they go for, why would pay $500-$1000 for something that to me, is not as nice a guitar, and made out of the country?

[ReaL Madras]

Very unusual that the pawn shop series is actually cheaper in the UK than in the US presently! It is the taxes amount only, but very rare that guitars work out cheaper there than here in the States.