Japanese Lawsuits... A few questions.

[IEatChocobos]

I just have a few questions about some lawsuit guitars...

I remember awhile back at the ESP boards "Burny" Les Pauls were all the rage as some of the members were like, "HOLY CRAP! These play better then a Gibson!!!"

Now I'm wondering who makes, in your opinion, a good Fender copy? Aria, Greco, Fernandes? I think it'd be cool to scope out a knock off Tele or Jaguar and have a little piece of guitar history.

Who makes the better Gibson knock off? Is it truly Burny?

I know some of you will be like, "OH, you can't beat the original"... but hey, it's all in the eyes of the beholder (or hands).

I've been assembling a new project and band, and once I figure out my job situation, I'll be in the market for a Fender Jaguar (or Mustang) and a SG of sorts (have my eye on an ESP Viper).

[mabley123]

the 70's tokai lawsuit guitars are considered the best ever copies.

the les paul, tele breezy sound and the stratocaster springy sound es335. they had a few but in particular the highest end tokai les pauls go for alot of money. all of the early les paul reborn lawsuit guitars are really nice guitars and easily equal and in many cases surpass anything gibson puts out short of custom shop....and like i said they are not cheap. the tokai is of custom shop quality. all of the strats, teles and les pauls were weighed before they went out the door so they conformed to a very strict standard. i believe all their les pauls were under 9 pounds and more on the line of 8.2-8.3 pounds. they were very uniform.
i have a tokai stratocaster body that weighs 3 pounds 12 oz.
the burnys were/are also nice guitars. steve hackett...ex genisis guitar player plays a burny...orville by gibson is also good..it is japanese. ibanez made some good lawsuit guitars too. they had a really nice es175 lawsuit copy.

for what little i know the early lawsuit tokai's are the best and most sought after and collectable copies.

[stantheman]

From a buyer's standpoint the Japanese "Orville" is right up there, as is Edwards and Bachus. From The 70's the only ones that really blew my socks off were the Ibanez Jazz Boxes.

[Zenzeypher]

Anything Fujigen!

I love Greco Les Pauls but you want certain years..I just got rid of my 77 and I miss it already.

Tokai, best ever Fender copies EVER.

[Radspin]

A friend of mine has an '80s Tokai Strat '50s copy and I like it better than most of the "real" ones I've played. Is it true that they were made in the same factory as the '80s Fender Japan vintage reissues?

[Zenzeypher]

Originally Posted by Radspin

A friend of mine has an '80s Tokai Strat '50s copy and I like it better than most of the "real" ones I've played. Is it true that they were made in the same factory as the '80s Fender Japan vintage reissues?

No Tokais have their own factory and have done since the 80's I think it's a rumour.

However Fender Japan did use the Fujigen factory and apparently some in the Matsumoku factory too..

[sneakyjapan]

It`s going to depend who you ask....10 years ago most people overseas had not even heard of Burnys...now, I agree with you, they say they are the best thing since sliced bread.
Who in Japan makes a good Fender copy?...PGM...who build the Van Zandt models over here as well as other high end models like Moon, among others. ESP used to build the Seymour Duncan line of guitars and basses, I own some...at least one from each series ...and they are great guitars...own some VZ`s too....same thing, they build outstanding F/USA clones..NOT cheap though so I buy used only.
Own some old Tokais...they`re nice, own a high end Springy Sound and a few Goldies...very happy with em...have a couple of LP types...an LS-50 and an LS-60...neither is high end but both very nicely made, they`re Les Paul Reborns.
Own one Burny LP custom model...it`s not bad but I do have better MIJ Les Paul clones.
Got some Grecos...all strats now...had some LP types but sold em...Fujigen was the factory that was building the old Greco`s and evidently F/USA was so impressed they went with that factory to build their first Fender Japan JV`s...the Japan Vintage series...top ends were, well, every bit on par with the US top ends, both strats and teles.
Les Paul types....the best I own is a FGN BATT-20, made by Fujigen and dates to 2002, Honduras mahogany body Timeless Timber top, Jacaranda fingerboard genuine abalone inlays...every inch a top end model. Got a couple of others from their History line. made exclusively for one chain of Japanese stores...just as nice.
I have a couple of Fernandes guitars...one strat from the `80s that is marked order made in the neck pocket...and one LP type that I can`t find any info on nor have I ever seen another like it...could have been custom made...both top notch.
Own a lot of Bacchus guitars, all from the older series that has become known as the vintage series...made late `90s early `00`s...strats and teles...few builders here garner as much respect as they do but again, 10 years ago few if any outside Japan had ever heard of them, now...web sites are full of experts on the brand...but I wonder how many people have actually seen any and how many are just going by what they read on line. I own a lot and have seen a lot more...but never found a bad one. But you`re too late...everybody is after them now...when I was buying mine nobody was, not even the Japanese so I was finding them for a minimum of 50% off list...those days are gone.
Don`t laugh too hard but...Yamaha...made some great guitars, no, really...you want a top notch LP type...check into the SG-2000 and up models...some of the lower end ones can be just as nice too...but the neck through models are as good as it gets.
I have a single P-90 type made by Crews...it`s an Aristotles model...very well made and they make their own p`ups that other builders in Japan use.
Let`s see....I`m feeling like I am forgetting someone...if I think of a name I missed, I`ll add it to this list....but as you can see from just the ones I own...we are spoiled for great MIJ`s in Japan these days... and there are many outstanding builders today that are making Leo very proud and probably why they don`t get exported.

[rjones652]

I've owned a Burny LP for nearly 10 years. It is an older one, probably from the 70's, as its one that has "Les Paul" on the headstock, under the factory finish. It's fit and finish equal any USA-made LP I've played. The pickups are nice...not overly hot like so many clones. The color isn't my fav (cherryburst) but it is a nicely done.




Here's a pic of it next to my dear/departed Burny Firebird



I also agree about the Yamahas....I had a SG-3000 for a short couple years and it had more tonal flexibility than any other humbucking guitar I've owned...let it go due to its 11pound mass...too much for me.

[TaylorPlayer]

I am going to say ESP, even prior to the Seymore Duncan line, they made replacement parts for ESP guitars. The very early ones had Fender Headstocks and I think even newer ones that are not sold in the USA still do. I love my early 80's Fiesta Red ESP strat. The only markings on it are a faint ESP stamp on the back of the neck and a ink stamp at the heel indicating ESP. The body is also ESP and has NY and some other writing stamped in the pocket which leads me to believe it was imported into New York, likely as parts, and then put together in the ESP shop there.

This is a really sweet player and the only Strat I think I will ever need.

[sneakyjapan]

Yeah the Duncans were made by somebody else before ESP made them, I remember when they showed up in the local Big Boss shop early/mid 1990s. The current line still has F/USA headstocks...not uncommon in Japan actually, lots do...which is why you`ll probably never see them over there they way they look here...their Navigator series does too.

[slotrod65]

I agree on the Tokai. I remember borrowing a Tokai "Springy Sound" strat for a couple of gigs back in the mid 1980's, and was just stunned at the quality, feel and tone.

[Paul in Colorado]

A friend of mine had an Ibanez "Silver Series" Strat copy that is one of the best Strats I've ever played. It had a perfect neck. The durn fool went and sold it to somebody else.

[Joe Sailor]

I have a '78 Ibanez Challenger jazz bass and I had a '78 Fender fretless P-bass. The Challenger and Silver Series are almost the same as far as I can tell. Dead on clones IMHO.

[qblue]

Originally Posted by sneakyjapan

Don`t laugh too hard but...Yamaha...made some great guitars, no, really...you want a top notch LP type...check into the SG-2000 and up models...some of the lower end ones can be just as nice too...but the neck through models are as good as it gets.

This is a picture of the Yamaha SBG2100 I own. I haven't had any urge to replace this with a LP, because it is tonally lush and sustains for days. It has the original Spinex HB pickups. It has a neck whose action is like butter and a set through body neck, with ebony fingerboard. I Love this guitar. It is a model that I bought @ GC for $400 only because Gibson threatened a lawsuit. I think it is the same as a SBG3000 without the pearl binding. If I ever get a LP it will have P-90's.

Who's laughing now?

[SamClemons]

Some of the Bradleys, sold by Venemans, are excellent lawsuit copies. A strat was just posted here on TDPRI (search Bradley). A nice Telecaster is on ebay right now (auction may have finished). A have a great Bradley Jazz bass.

[Wrong-Note Rod]

I've got a Burny les paul that I bought from Billy Gibbons recording assistant and monitor mixer... supposedly it was "the bus beater" guitar. The Rev DNA link aside, its a fabulous les paul. The guy wanted a new Tokai, which he said, was even better than the Burny.

[Whiskey_Joe]

I Love my Fernandes!

[stratman323]

Originally Posted by Radspin

A friend of mine has an '80s Tokai Strat '50s copy and I like it better than most of the "real" ones I've played. Is it true that they were made in the same factory as the '80s Fender Japan vintage reissues?

Not 80s, no. When Fender realised the threat from the Japanese "copies" in the early 80s, they apparently had discussions with a few companies, including Tokai, before awarding the Fender Japan contract to Fujigen. But Tokai did get the Fender Japan contract for several years in the 1990s, so yes, an 80s Tokai Springy Sound or Goldstar Sound was made in the same factory that later made some of the FJ guitars.

Can we please be clear on one thing though - this "lawsuit" is a myth! Somebody show me the details of when Fender took Tokai to court - it didn't happen. So "lawsuit" is one of the most meaningless yet overused words in guitar terminology.

I've owned several 80s Tokai Goldstars, & played many more, & they are consistently great guitars, & excellent value at the prices they sell for in the UK.



There was a good article on the Tokai Strats in a UK magazine 3 years ago:

http://www.tokairegistry.com/tokai-i...e-July2008.pdf

[nickg21285]

I've used a Japanese Tokai Love rock as my main guitar since about 2006. I actually picked it over 3 other gibson LP's (an 88 LP Custom, a 2006 Standard and a 2004 Classic). The Tokai just called to me and it has been my go to guitar ever since.
I just liked the over all feel of the guitar, the neck shape, the tone everything.

One thing I really hate is when other people dismiss the guitar as being 'just a tokai'. Just because it doesn't have Gibson on the headstock it doesn't mean it's not a good Les Paul style guitar. When I've let people play it tho most of em change their mind.

[Wrong-Note Rod]

thats because headstock logo snobs are often morons who cant play their way out of a paper bag. I remember bringing my Burny to its first gig and the drummer made some sneering comment about "japanese crap" or something like that. I didnt say anything, I just played as hard and as well as I could until finally even he admitted, it sounded great.