Help with playing blues....

[jeremypodom]

I've never been very fond of blues but I decided it would be beneficial to at least give it a shot... I feel like you're expected to know blues when you tell people you're a guitarist. I told my instructor and he gave me a video of a Robben Ford blues riff that's 50 seconds long to work on. Well, I've been at it trying to learn it by ear/sight for an hour or two now, and I feel like shooting myself

I'm not sure what to ask for... maybe some stories of others struggling through blues but having it be worth it in the end? Or how you grew to love blues over time? It's a mixture between simply not being good at it (yet) and overall dislike for what I'm playing anyways.

I get so tired of the pentatonic scale, especially now that in my sectional classes we've started getting in to modes. Modes add such a unique flavor that can be used in so many ways, but it seems like pentatonic instantly feels bluesy.

[MonkeyKing]

Wow! This is an inadvertent horror story! I can`t see that there`s a bonus in playing music you hate -but hating the blues makes me shudder! Maybe you just don`t like BAD blues? ? ?
Maybe it`s a question of miliue - when pre stooges iggy pop moved to chicago to study from the great blues drummers, he found the music grew out of sex and booze good times, and the music was a natural extension . . . which convinced him a studious copy
would be in vain, and music history was changed forever!
Go deep, learn muddy`s can`t be satisfied and still a fool, and if that doesn`t move you, go back to getting down with your modal self! The blues will still be waiting for you . . .

[sacizob]

Originally Posted by MonkeyKing

Wow! This is an inadvertent horror story! I can`t see that there`s a bonus in playing music you hate -but hating the blues makes me shudder! Maybe you just don`t like BAD blues? ? ?
Maybe it`s a question of miliue - when pre stooges iggy pop moved to chicago to study from the great blues drummers, he found the music grew out of sex and booze good times, and the music was a natural extension . . . which convinced him a studious copy
would be in vain, and music history was changed forever!
Go deep, learn muddy`s can`t be satisfied and still a fool, and if that doesn`t move you, go back to getting down with your modal self! The blues will still be waiting for you . . .

What kind of help is this?

[Telemarkman]

You don't say anything about what sort of music you like, but since we're on a Telecaster forum, here's some real special Telecaster blues for you - hope you like it!

[Mike Simpson]

I think what he meant was to dig deeper in the well and learn from the masters and see where it leads you. Buy some Muddy Waters, BB King, Albert King, T Bone Walker. Listen to the music to get a feel for it. Follow the pentatonic scale through all of the CAGED patterns.

[jeremypodom]

Originally Posted by Mike Simpson

I think what he meant was to dig deeper in the well and learn from the masters and see where it leads you. Buy some Muddy Waters, BB King, Albert King, T Bone Walker. Listen to the music to get a feel for it. Follow the pentatonic scale through all of the CAGED patterns.

I suppose.... I think I'm facing beginners frustration for the first time in a while. Blues is a completely different beast from anything I've tried to learn before.

[waster]

I wanted to try play some jazz a while ago, a genre I am interested in reading about and studying, but I have never liked the sound of it. The advice I got was not to bother too much learning something I am not fond of, even tho I love reading about it and have learned plenty from doing that. I think that person was right on the money.
I decided to just carry on reading about it and not trying too much to play it unless I hear something I like. I am glad I took that approach rather than battle through trying to learn something I wont even like once I have learned it. I also can't stand country music, and most metal these days so I don't play them either.
Blues is my thing and that is how I have decided to stay, for now anyway.

So is there any style of blues you enjoy? There is jazz influenced blues, country influenced blues, blues rock, etc, You might find some you like close to your usual genre. But for myself I would have to like it to want to play it.

[jeremypodom]

Originally Posted by waster

I wanted to try play some jazz a while ago, a genre I am interested in reading about and studying, but I have never liked the sound of it. The advice I got was not to bother too much learning something I am not fond of, even tho I love reading about it and have learned plenty from doing that. I think that person was right on the money.
I decided to just carry on reading about it and not trying too much to play it unless I hear something I like. I am glad I took that approach rather than battle through trying to learn something I wont even like once I have learned it. I also can't stand country music, and most metal these days so I don't play them either.
Blues is my thing and that is how I have decided to stay, for now anyway.

So is there any style of blues you enjoy? There is jazz influenced blues, country influenced blues, blues rock, etc, You might find some you like close to your usual genre. But for myself I would have to like it to want to play it.

Thanks a ton for this advice.... I do like country guitarists, if not the whole musical genre. I might have more luck picking blues influenced country pieces.

[Mike Simpson]

This video shows the pentatonic pattern in the other positions outside the root position.
Although many of his lessons lean towards SRV's style he teaches very well while acknowledging his influences.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i4ZLMgFZLso

[javabirds]

Watch O Brother Where Art Thou? Enjoy the movie and the music. Pay special attention to Chris Thomas King (Tommy Johnson) and his version of Skip James' "Hard Time Killing Floor" and the feeling it evokes at that point in the film. Then consider how the movie and the music have worked together. Now you not only have a taste of blues but can see how it relates to the larger world of music that includes Gospel, Bluegrass, Folk, Country and Americana.

[tap4154]

Seems like about every old and new blues/blues-rock solo I've learned note-for-note is in and around/back and forth to the 5 pentatonic blues boxes, and relative scale (move it all three frets down).

There's a WHOLE lot just in there, unless you get stuck in just a few licks, which is very easy to do.

http://www.myguitarworkshop.com/guit...fretboard.aspx

Just sit down learn some BB solos, Clapton, Page etc., from tab and you'll see how they slide up and down to the boxes, and make up your own licks and tricks! Just use your ears. You can tell what fits, and what doesn't. After a while, you can tell what box they're in just by listening.

[Papa Joe]

Sign up for this guys news letter and get frree lessons...He's a very good instructor..

http://bluesguitarunleashed.com/4not...FQQBQAodNTSp2w

[paul74]

Try listening to some Buddy Whittington, great player, has a background in country and gets out of the pentatonic. Matt Schofield is maybe more accessible than Robben but in a similar vibe, but if you don't like it, don't play it. I don't like fusion and don't feel I'm missing out even though I could learn lots from it.

[tjalla]

Third attempt at an answer to this: IMO in a nutshell

1. Any music, but especially blues, as an artform and expression needs to come from a place of *wanting* to express yourself in that idiom. Otherwise it a technical exercise, playing pentatonics with a b5 throw in etc... which misses the point.

2. External expectations or perceived benefits should be secondary considerations as to why pursue any genre of music.

3. Find your inroad - that artist that grabs your ear, mind and heart and makes you enjoy listening to the music. Actually learning and playing can follow later.

[Telemarkman]

Originally Posted by tjalla

Third attempt at an answer to this: IMO in a nutshell

1. Any music, but especially blues, as an artform and expression needs to come from a place of *wanting* to express yourself in that idiom. Otherwise it a technical exercise, playing pentatonics with a b5 throw in etc... which misses the point.

2. External expectations or perceived benefits should be secondary considerations as to why pursue any genre of music.

3. Find your inroad - that artist that grabs your ear, mind and heart and makes you enjoy listening to the music. Actually learning and playing can follow later.

Bull's eye!

The link to Roy's Bluz was an attempt to show the OP that blues can be more - and not least different - than what you normally think.

It's not easy to advice someone who hasn't even revealed what sort of music he likes, or what sort of blues he has heard and not liked ...

[Latebluesman]

Originally Posted by Mike Simpson

This video shows the pentatonic pattern in the other positions outside the root position.
Although many of his lessons lean towards SRV's style he teaches very well while acknowledging his influences.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i4ZLMgFZLso

I think that this is not right, but what do I know?
I think it is a complication of the pentatonic and the major scale...

[Dave_O]

Originally Posted by jeremypodom

I've never been very fond of blues but I decided it would be beneficial to at least give it a shot... I feel like you're expected to know blues when you tell people you're a guitarist. I told my instructor and he gave me a video of a Robben Ford blues riff that's 50 seconds long to work on. Well, I've been at it trying to learn it by ear/sight for an hour or two now, and I feel like shooting myself

I'm not sure what to ask for... maybe some stories of others struggling through blues but having it be worth it in the end? Or how you grew to love blues over time? It's a mixture between simply not being good at it (yet) and overall dislike for what I'm playing anyways.

I get so tired of the pentatonic scale, especially now that in my sectional classes we've started getting in to modes. Modes add such a unique flavor that can be used in so many ways, but it seems like pentatonic instantly feels bluesy.

My 2c less tax. And I may cop some flak for this, but I'll wear it.

1) Don't listen to noodlers. I know a lot of folks love Roy Buchanan. And Robben Ford. And a whole lot of guitar-slinger types. But is it blues? Dunno. Possibly closer to jazz.

2) Don't make the mistake of thinking the blues was born in a London suburb in 1962. As much as I grew up listening to Cream, Zep and all the "guitar hero" types they spawned, it ain't really blues either. It's blues-influenced rock. Not that there's anything wrong with that, to quote Seinfeld.

3) Go into the way-back machine, my friend- Start with Robert Johnson, Charlie Patton, Skip James, Ma Rainey, Bessie Smith, Big Bill Broonzy, Leadbelly. No guitar solos here, mate. Listen to old Muddy Waters, Howling Wolf and John Lee Hooker. BB King, Albert King and Freddie King. I heard a great CD on Saturday-- "Dedicated", a compilation put together by Steve Cropper of songs by The 5 Royales. No pointless noodling or self-indulgent fret-bothering on that CD.

Wanna get into Texas blues? Start with a Vaughan. Jimmy Vaughan. That will take you back into a whole world of music- that potent mix of blues, country and Mexican influences. You'll run into Billy F. Gibbons along the way.

A lot of my favourite blues guys were virtually musically illiterate. Didn't stop them from pouring their heart, soul and guts out.

But what would I know- I'm just a Mongolian string-bender from the edge of the Empire...

[Telemarkman]

Originally Posted by Dave_O

My 2c less tax. And I may cop some flak for this, but I'll wear it.

1) Don't listen to noodlers. I know a lot of folks love Roy Buchanan. And Robben Ford. And a whole lot of guitar-slinger types. But is it blues? Dunno. Possibly closer to jazz.

2) Don't make the mistake of thinking the blues was born in a London suburb in 1962. As much as I grew up listening to Cream, Zep and all the "guitar hero" types they spawned, it ain't really blues either. It's blues-influenced rock. Not that there's anything wrong with that, to quote Seinfeld.

3) Go into the way-back machine, my friend- Start with Robert Johnson, Charlie Patton, Skip James, Ma Rainey, Bessie Smith, Big Bill Broonzy, Leadbelly. No guitar solos here, mate. Listen to old Muddy Waters, Howling Wolf and John Lee Hooker. BB King, Albert King and Freddie King. I heard a great CD on Saturday-- "Dedicated", a compilation put together by Steve Cropper of songs by The 5 Royales. No pointless noodling or self-indulgent fret-bothering on that CD.

Wanna get into Texas blues? Start with a Vaughan. Jimmy Vaughan. That will take you back into a whole world of music- that potent mix of blues, country and Mexican influences. You'll run into Billy F. Gibbons along the way.

A lot of my favourite blues guys were virtually musically illiterate. Didn't stop them from pouring their heart, soul and guts out.

But what would I know- I'm just a Mongolian string-bender from the edge of the Empire...

No flak, but ...

I love all of those artists you mention, but I also love a lot of "guitar slingers". Why do I have to choose one or the other? And a lot of jazz musicians play (what they call) blues, but I'm sure you'd label it jazz.

I think your definition of blues as a form is way too narrow ...

To the OP: Listen to all of the suggested artists - I'm sure it won't hurt!

[homesick345]

Originally Posted by jeremypodom

I've never been very fond of blues but I decided it would be beneficial to at least give it a shot... I feel like you're expected to know blues when you tell people you're a guitarist. I told my
I get so tired of the pentatonic scale, especially now that in my sectional classes we've started getting in to modes. Modes add such a unique flavor that can be used in so many ways, but it seems like pentatonic instantly feels bluesy.

A - NOBODY IN HIS RIGHT mind would advise a blues beginner starting an approach to "the blues" by playing Robben Ford. Robben is way too technical, and tricky.

B - You are right when you say the the Pentatonic is boring. But guess what? No serious bluesman play in the pentatonic scale. There is so much additions from other scales/modes (you call them whatever you want), & so much mixing of major/minor, that this can hardly be called anything anymore - except good or bad blues playing.

C - Modes & scales - ALL OF THEM - are tools. DEAD tools. No scale & no mode sounds good by itself.

D - If I were to advise on beginning the electric guitar blues somewhere; i would point in the directions of the 3 Kings, Hubert Sumlin, Buddy Guy, Otis Rush, etc...I would also advise on getting their early recordings, where the guitar parts are in general kept simple. I would also advise on Lightnin Hopkins, who's style is a great mix of the texas-mississippi-chicago traditions. All the guys I listed are easy to listen to, & you should get going playing with their CDs in no time, if you master your basic major/minor pentatonic scales, & some estra positions & basic bendings.

Good Luck!

[tjalla]

Originally Posted by Latebluesman

I think that this is not right, but what do I know?
I think it is a complication of the pentatonic and the major scale...

In a way, he has it right in the sense that these are typical positions to play blues licks and solos from. However, at the same time I do feel this embodies the double-edged sword that is the guitar ie that its very easy to get into it via shapes or visually, but its a road that can only go so far before you hit a dead end and need to back out the way you came if you really want to progress.

Most of the greats, as already pointed out, don't just use pentatonics - its the major/minor interplay that makes a solo sound like a melody or conversation. Having copped licks from T-Bone and John Lee to SRV and Robben etc I can honestly say ALL THIRTEEN notes (root to octave) in the western musical scale have use in a blues context. Then you add the 1/4 tone bends and it all falls into place.

Back tracking to the basics however - listen to these artists when they sing:

Ray Charles
Mahalia Jackson
Sunnyland Slim
Ray Brown
BB King
Otis Rush
... and pretty much all the pioneers, even those who didn't have a great voice. Its not about their vocal timbre.

Put away your musician cap, you've got to tap into what they were putting across person to person. This music was played by the people who direly needed to express it, and for the people who were desperate to hear it. It was their only way out of their circumstances, and its this immediacy that makes its such a powerful communicative medium today.

I can't help but get heavy on this topic, and relegating blues to a scale or 5 positions on a guitar neck is mechanic - they are byproducts of the artform itself - but looking at them for inspiration its putting the cart before the horse.

This might help you to not think about the guitar, or about being a musician for a moment...

[AirBagTester]

Originally Posted by jeremypodom

I get so tired of the pentatonic scale, especially now that in my sectional classes we've started getting in to modes. Modes add such a unique flavor that can be used in so many ways, but it seems like pentatonic instantly feels bluesy.

Maybe try slack key/open tunings with a slide? Open G is always fun. And when you get bored you can play some Stones songs!

[Flaneur]

If you find value in learning specific pieces of guitar blues, i suppose you should continue to work on and eventually incorporate them into your repertoire. If you don't- stop, move on to something you prefer and don't look back. Maybe something bluesy will grab you, in future, maybe not. There is no necessity to like and play certain forms of music, just because you are a guitar player- and I'm not going to recommend any artists to you, to try and change your mind.

Enjoy, express yourself........... I think that's the way to go.

[jeremypodom]

Thanks for all the advice guys. I'll try and do a bit more listening, but as a whole blues has never resonated with me.

As for my musical tastes, I listen to a lot of post-rock (which is mostly slower instrumental kind of music), I've been listening to a lot of soundtracks lately, certain artists like Neil Zaza, Andy Timmons, Guthrie Govan... mostly "modern" artists.

[Larry F]

For some reason, it has become common in forums like these to characterize the minor pent as boring. My approach is to enhance these by adding a second and sixth, which are most often not immediately preceded or followed by a minor third and flat seventh.

Another enhancement is the major third, which is often preceded or followed by any note in the minor pent, as well as the second and sixth. Finally, there is the flat fifth, which is most often preceded or followed by the fourth and fifth of the minor pent.

Listen to the old-school melodies. Howling' Wolf, for example, most often uses strictly the minor pent. Off hand, I can't think of any other notes he uses, although I am certain he must use the flat 5th.

I believe that a priority for anyone starting out in blues solo and fill playing is to be extremely comfortable with the minor pent. I hear so many guys on YouTube playing it in a scale-wise, note-to-note manner. A key ingredient is to learn how to use skips in the minor pent. For example, in a C blues: G C Bb F Eb Eb.

[tjalla]

Originally Posted by jeremypodom

As for my musical tastes, I listen to a lot of post-rock (which is mostly slower instrumental kind of music), I've been listening to a lot of soundtracks lately, certain artists like Neil Zaza, Andy Timmons, Guthrie Govan... mostly "modern" artists.

Ok... maybe Sunnyland Slim might be a little bit far removed from these guys.

Perhaps you might take a leaf out of Andy's book. You don't often see 'modern' guys heading down to their local joint to sit in with Anson Funderburgh - one of the very best around today. Andy in from 3:30 mark.



Like Larry said, you can add back alot of notes fill in what the pentatonic leaves out. But more notes doesn't immediately equate to 'less boring'

If you know how to really work the pentatonic like Albert King did, you can fill a stadium, hold the crowd and reach a whole other generation of people

[elihu]

Originally Posted by tjalla

Third attempt at an answer to this: IMO in a nutshell

1. Any music, but especially blues, as an artform and expression needs to come from a place of *wanting* to express yourself in that idiom. Otherwise it a technical exercise, playing pentatonics with a b5 throw in etc... which misses the point.

2. External expectations or perceived benefits should be secondary considerations as to why pursue any genre of music.

3. Find your inroad - that artist that grabs your ear, mind and heart and makes you enjoy listening to the music. Actually learning and playing can follow later.

Good answer to a difficult question!

Originally Posted by jeremypodom

I get so tired of the pentatonic scale, especially now that in my sectional classes we've started getting in to modes. Modes add such a unique flavor that can be used in so many ways, but it seems like pentatonic instantly feels bluesy.

Freddie King used the same notes everyone else did but made blues melodies out of 'em. His instrumentals especially have a song structure-verse, chorus, verse etc. And his phrasing and rhythm were fabulous...always insistent imo.



Maybe grab this album off Amazon.



Clapton did Hideaway, Peter Green did The Stumble, Mick Taylor owned Driving Sideways...

[Dave_O]

Very cool, elihu.

And tjalla said what I was thinking, but in a more thoughtful and less confrontational manner

Perhaps I should have written this:

Blues is about the song, and the way it makes the listener and the player feel. It's not a technical thing about notes and scales and modes and such.

That would have been a lot less typing...

[DrumBob]

Originally Posted by jeremypodom

I suppose.... I think I'm facing beginners frustration for the first time in a while. Blues is a completely different beast from anything I've tried to learn before.

Don't go about it from a studious standpoint. I think your teacher was a total dumbass to have you try and cop Robben Ford's licks. Blues is about feel, and if it doesn't come from the heart, it's not worth listening to. I would start by absorbing BB King first and foremost. His lead lines are so beautifully simple and straightforward. Then, go backwards and check out Albert and Freddie King, Albert Collins, Buddy Guy, SRV, Johnny Winter, Clapton, Hubert Sumlin, Muddy Waters, Son House, Robert Johnson, etc.

You sound like the Edge from U2. He's brilliant at what he does, but when he tried playing blues, he was inept until he rubbed shoulders with BB. Now, you can hear a little bit of bluesy stuff going on with his soloing, but he used to be Mr. Modal up to that point.

You can do it. Just immerse yourself and play from your heart.

[sax4blues]

Does learning to play in the blues style, or any other style, always start with learning lead licks? I think the better place to start is learn some rhythm playing so the newby can fit into playing with others. Pick a song and learn that song, the chord changes, chord voicing, rhythm style, lyrics. Learn how to play a 12 bar song, and within that song, learn a one verse solo.

[charlie chitlin]

Funny...I'm thinking about trying to like olives.
I really don't like olives, nor do I have any real desire to like olives; but when I hang out with some of my friends, I see them eating olives and enjoying them, so I figure, as an omnivore, there's something about olives that I really SHOULD like.
I'm going to make a real effort to like olives.

[jeremypodom]

Originally Posted by charlie chitlin

Funny...I'm thinking about trying to like olives.
I really don't like olives, nor do I have any real desire to like olives; but when I hang out with some of my friends, I see them eating olives and enjoying them, so I figure, as an omnivore, there's something about olives that I really SHOULD like.
I'm going to make a real effort to like olives.

Point taken. I'll go ahead and attempt to suffer through this assignment, seeing as my grade is based on it, and drop it afterwards.

[telleutelleme]

First, listen to the recognized blues players. The ones who didn't back in to the blues but came to the blues right away. Lots of them, even new guys. Keb Mo, Robert Cray and Eric Bibb come to mind. Josh Stone is a natural blues singer and fun to listen to. They don't have to be old school. Find what sounds interesting and get the feel. Get SIRiUS/XM and Peg Bluesville for a while. I guarantee you will hear something that grabs you.

Next get some simple backing tracks and play those scales (if that is where you are in your learning) over them and try and find the feel of them. Not just the mechanics but the feel. If it is there you will know it.

Once you get the finger memory and the feel, then find the tunes you want to learn and work the complexities.

I do agree with Sax4blues that getting the groove by playing basic blues chord progressions is a great way to develop the feel of the blues.

[mal paso]

Hey Charlie, I used to not like olives either.

One day, I woke up, and had a taste for 'em. Now I love them!


Don't know what happened, or even when this change occurred, but it did.



So I guess my point is, it's possible you may end up liking them one day too!


(However, I don't think this will help with blues appreciation.)

Sure, I think it would enhance your playing, but if you don't dig it, you don't dig it. I'm sure there are plenty of other styles out there more suited to your tastes that you could benefit from learning instead.


That being said, has no one mentioned Elmore James?

[winny pooh]

Don't play the blues if you have no desire to, there are enough uninspired white blues losers out there already.

If you absolutely have to then get Kenny Burrell's Midnight Blue, some Son House or some Kelly Joe Phelps.

[rolling56]

You've got a hole in your soul if you don't dig the blues..........

To me the pent scale doesn't sound bluesy if you don't add the flat 5th or bend to it.

Glad you got your avatar fixed

[MrTwang]

Originally Posted by winny pooh

Don't play the blues if you have no desire to, there are enough uninspired white blues losers out there already.

+1 to that

[MrTwang]

Originally Posted by jeremypodom

Point taken. I'll go ahead and attempt to suffer through this assignment, seeing as my grade is based on it, and drop it afterwards.

Looks like you shot yourself in the foot there - in your earlier post you said the only reason you were given it to learn was because you had told your instructor you wanted to.

Maybe you could use that pain and write a blues song about it

[Tonemonkey]

Originally Posted by charlie chitlin

Funny...I'm thinking about trying to like olives.
I really don't like olives, nor do I have any real desire to like olives; but when I hang out with some of my friends, I see them eating olives and enjoying them, so I figure, as an omnivore, there's something about olives that I really SHOULD like.
I'm going to make a real effort to like olives.

I did that! ....... Really! ...........I thought I must be missing out on something, tried different ones, had an occasional one with my wine, put some in my bolognese sauce ....and sure enough .. they're good .. ....... took a while though.

Love em now.

[jeremypodom]

Originally Posted by MrTwang

Looks like you shot yourself in the foot there - in your earlier post you said the only reason you were given it to learn was because you had told your instructor you wanted to.

Maybe you could use that pain and write a blues song about it

My foot has no bullet holes but I did break a toenail today...
I'm not sure why that thought popped through my head, honestly. I guess I feel a little guilty for not liking what so many consider to be a staple of music. Then again, I consider modern, over processed, auto-tuned pop to have merit too while I'm sure many here would disagree.

[Tonemonkey]

JP

It can be an acquired taste; I tried the "hard stuff" RJ etc, wanted to like it (like you) but found it grated ......... moved on to more main stream blues influenced stuff, Crossroads recordings, RCray, EC etc then found that when I heard a raw early version of a song after I'd heard EC or Peter Green play it, it had a familiarity I could relate to .....