rating john, paul and george as musicians

[elicross]

The Beatles weren't guitarists' guitarists. They didn't have mind-blowing chops. They just made some of the greatest pop and rock music ever made.

They didn't melt faces. They played exactly what the song needed. That was their genius.

Ringo included, dammit.

[elicross]

Originally Posted by Blazer

Then put your money where your mouth is and record the solos for "Something", "Till there was you" and more recent "Marwa blues" and see if you get the vibe right, you'll never be able to pull them off as elegant and fluid like George did.

Wouldn't matter if he could. He didn't invent 'em. George Did.

(Which is why "Oh, yeah? -- let's see you play that solo as well as he did" never really works as an argument; it's too far removed from the point. )

[Mjark]

I forgot to mention Ringo. Of course he's tremendous.

[twangking]

To quote John "Ringo wasn't even the best drummer in the beatles"

[SolidSnakeBoss]

Originally Posted by elicross

Wouldn't matter if he could. He didn't invent 'em. George Did.

(Which is why "Oh, yeah? -- let's see you play that solo as well as he did" never really works as an argument; it's too far removed from the point. )

+1. I've seen lots of covers of Little Wing but you still can't compare them to Hendrix. A lot of them suck too.

[mohair_chair]

George was a great player. His early stuff was constrained by the musical tastes of the time, but once they broke out of the fab Beatlemania era and started doing whatever they wanted, he really blossomed as a player. He is one of the great players of the 1960s.

John was pretty average at guitar and piano. And harp. He was a pro, but he was limited.

Paul was good at everything. He was a very good guitarist and played a lot of guitar parts that are credited to George, and even some drum tracks that are credited to Ringo. George wasn't even there for most of the Sgt. Pepper recording sessions, so a lot of the lead work you hear is Paul. Paul has a distinctive lead tone. Very shrill and stabbing with lots of treble.

Ringo was good. Not great, just good. They told him what to play and he played it. He famously can't play a drum roll, but who cares?

The three-way solo in the Golden Slumbers medley is a great example of all three as guitarists. Paul goes first, slightly rough and dirty, then George, who is very clean and smooth, and then the edgy, sloppy one is John. It works.

There's a video of Paul doing the three-way with Clapton and Knopfler (with Phil Collins on drums), and he holds his own. Here it is. The 3-way starts around 3:45:

[taxer]

Originally Posted by Tim Armstrong

I'd also note that George did play some pretty hip things, even early on. He had some very nice rockabilly/Chet Atkins technique,

Good point, Tim.

You know, the best thing I ever heard about George's guitar playing was just said a week ago in that George documentary directed by Scorsese. It was said by Clapton.

Now some of you are getting on me for saying George lacked technique. Well, Clapton himself said the same thing. Clapton honestly admited he had the chops that George could never do. But Clapton gave George a great compliment that I had never really thought of. Clapton said George was actually very, very innovative. A great innovator. Innovative in the fact that George did something really no one had done before. He mixed guitar chops of rock, rockabilly, and country western into something new. And Clapton's right. Those early George solos really are a bizarre mixture of different solo playing. George melded all the different styles he loved and grew up listening to into something new. Full marks for that.

But his techniques, his "level of difficulty" as they call it in sports should be much higher in order for him to be considered a brilliant musician. That's all I am saying. Wonderful player. Could create a perfect solo. Musicianship was nothing to write home about.

[tele12]

Originally Posted by taxer

George - most early Beatle solos are very unimpressive. He got better, but no one will ever consider George an elite guitarist.
....

George is #21 on RollingStone's list of 100 best guitarists. He's #11 on Gibson.com's list of top 50 guitarists.

Sounds pretty elite to me.

[taxer]

Originally Posted by tele12

George is #21 on RollingStone's list of 100 best guitarists.

That actually says a lot. Think about it. The lead guitarist for history's most popular and successful band only ranks number 21.

[tele12]

Originally Posted by taxer

Yes, the creativity of George is great; but this thread is asking about musicianship and George's playing is far too simple to be awarded the status of greatness.

Wouldn't musicianship mean the making of music? If music is great why can't it be simple?

[yark14]

Originally Posted by taxer

That actually says a lot. Think about it. The lead guitarist for history's most popular and successful band only ranks number 21.

Only 21? Look at the list of people behind him. Sure looks pretty good to be #21. I'd be happy with #21 of the millions of people that consider themselves guitar players. Ahead of Buddy Guy and Stephen Stills.

Bottom line: George was fabulous. The people that doubt his ability probably aren't very good in their own right.

[tele12]

Originally Posted by taxer

That actually says a lot. Think about it. The lead guitarist for history's most popular and successful band only ranks number 21.

ONLY #21? You said no one considers George elite. Many people do.

http://www.amazon.com/Legends-Rock-G.../dp/0825603099

George's heading reads:

George Harrison: Was he the Best?

"....As far as we're concerned, George Harrison wrote the book on melodic rock and roll guitar."

[SamClemons]

I would note one thing, Paul is way up the list of people whom bass players would note as one of their prime influences, including me. George or John are not mentioned very often when you see list of people who influenced guitar players, though in reality they did through their music. I bet nearly everyone on this board has played Beatles tunes at one time. We did. Their song writing and playing very tasteful, catchy, music to go with it was their strong point.

[SolidSnakeBoss]

Originally Posted by taxer

That actually says a lot. Think about it. The lead guitarist for history's most popular and successful band only ranks number 21.

Sure says a lot. Think about it. #21 and he's not considered a great guitarist? What, he needs to be number one?

Originally Posted by taxer

Could create a perfect solo.

Exactly.

[Tim Armstrong]

Flash is often confused for substance, but substance never seems to be confused for flash.

Tim

[Tele-writer]

Fifty years on, and they are still worthy of discussing, and more importantly, giving a listen to. I applaud them all, still, for all their talent and passion.

[getbent]

to me, you are what you are.

the beatles were about great, great songs. Because of that, they didn't focus their material on showcasing the individual chops or solo skills etc... if they had, they wouldn't have been 'all about the songs'

It seems simplistic, and it is, but it is also true. If you make records with great songs, they will probably have great parts, but the focus will be on the song...

for people who 'rate' musicians (which is about as thoughtful as rating women or thinking that penis enlargement ads might actually help) the Beatles won't be rated highly because those same people usually aren't 'about the song' they are about solos as signs of machismo and who go see bands and talk about them as though the bands are competing...

[taxer]

Originally Posted by SamClemons

George or John are not mentioned very often when you see list of people who influenced guitar players,.

Best point made here.

Yes, George influenced countless people to pick up a guitar. No doubt about that. But once you got your guitar and learned and progressed and you wanted to be an exceptional musician, did anyone really look to George's playing as a guide?

We are talking about musicianship here. Not song writing craftsmanship. George could write songs better than most. On that list he would be an elite. On a list of history's accomplished guitarists, you are nuts if you think George makes that list. Come on people, think of what you are saying. George Harrison is on the level of Hendrix or Chet Atkins or Segovia? Even he would laugh at that.

[Cheesehead]

Originally Posted by Blazer

(I really shouldn't be doing this but this provokes me a little too much...)

Then put your money where your mouth is and record the solos for "Something", "Till there was you" and more recent "Marwa blues" and see if you get the vibe right, you'll never be able to pull them off as elegant and fluid like George did.

Interestingly I just learned the solo to Something yesterday. Easy to play? I suppose. Hard to get the vibe? You bet. Absolutely beautiful and lyrical and perfect for the song? Darn tootin'!

I just had this argument with a nonmusician friend of mine over the weekend. He said they were good songwriters but not that great of musicians. I agree with the above posts that Paul was an amazing musician all around, George was a top notch guitarist, Ringo was a great drummer, and John was a great songwriter.

[TeleTim911]

My take on this: George was incredible. He played tons of Rock leads without pedals or OD or whatever (listen up young-uns!). He could finger pick as well (as video lesson above shows).

Paul did tons of bass lines...as in "All My Loving" and "Nowhere Man". Rolling bass lines, and singing at the same time. He is still a great musician, IMO.

John was a great rhythm player, and I often felt he could play leads as well, just never did. My favorite Beatles stuff was him singing leads.

Ringo may not have been a flashy over the top player, however he had one of the fastest right hands I've heard. He kept the beat, often when you couldn't even hear the music over the crowd. I've always respected him as a drummer.

Together, they performed absolute magic. Remember, they had dozens of hits, changed the face of rock music, influenced literally millions of musicians, had millions of screaming fans, and all before 25 years of age. Wish I could say the same.