Using High Dollar Cap’s for the Plank?

[BrianF]

Originally Posted by dibber124

Well, you seem to agree that all capacitors are not the same, so why not accept that some sonic difference exists between, say, ceramic and poly/foil types like Hovlands? (in signal pass caps)

If you follow my threads above, you will notice that I changed my opinion, after cafrefully considering the details. As I mentioned in my last post above...different capacitor construction results to different parasitic elements of the cap...since a real cap is more than just an ideal capacitance value. Whether or not you can hear sonic differences from the subtle parasitic differences is the question, and if you do, then who is to say that you can't?

[JamonHamon]

Originally Posted by BrianF

If you follow my threads above, you will notice that I changed my opinion, after cafrefully considering the details. As I mentioned in my last post above...different capacitor construction results to different parasitic elements of the cap...since a real cap is more than just an ideal capacitance value. Whether or not you can hear sonic differences from the subtle parasitic differences is the question, and if you do, then who is to say that you can't?

Brianf
...I felt the same as you, I believed from past posts that changing a cap would not make a difference, but after hearing it for my self I have to admit I was wrong
When Don Mare tests caps he uses alligator clips and tests over a hundred different caps at a time and he has found the good caps and he buys them up off of eBay
I was lucky that I went to him and heard the difference myself. Its like comparing one cap that sounds like cardboard and another cap has the sonic quality of a pipe organ

[BrianF]

Originally Posted by JamonHamon

Brianf
...I felt the same as you, I believed from past posts that changing a cap would not make a difference, but after hearing it for my self I have to admit I was wrong
When Don Mare tests caps he uses alligator clips and tests over a hundred different caps at a time and he has found the good caps and he buys them up off of eBay
I was lucky that I went to him and heard the difference myself. Its like comparing one cap that sounds like cardboard and another cap has the sonic quality of a pipe organ

Hi Jamon...

My opinion change is based on carefully reviewing technical details. I have no idea if I can actually hear any difference. The experiment that Don Mare does is interesting but it doesn't reveal WHY the sonic differences exist. It's not a controlled experiement. The end result is effective though...if you like what you hear...then most folks won't care why. Although...if you did really know why...it might focus your search and save you $ from plunking down big $ for exotic caps.

[JohnnyCrash]

Originally Posted by JamonHamon

When Don Mare tests caps he uses alligator clips and tests over a hundred different caps at a time and he has found the good caps and he buys them up off of eBay

Somehow Mr. Mare always comes up in your posts :)


As far as his "testing"... is he testing them for their value of capacitance? What else in the world is he testing and how do you test for anything else?

I suspect he's cherry picking exact values that are nearly identical.

Tolerances what they are, no two .047 caps will actually be exactly the same (nor exactly .047 usually).

Also, poor BrianF shouldn't have to keep repeating himself - what in particular he is talking about he has doubts can be heard with the naked ear.

Certainly a cap of same measured value in a guitar will NOT be "night and day" or "cardboard vs pipe organ" - it wouldn't be that drastic between materials - in a guitar (especially with the voltages present). If it is different, it would be arguable if it could even be heard by the human ear.

[dibber124]

Originally Posted by BrianF

If you follow my threads above, you will notice that I changed my opinion, after cafrefully considering the details. As I mentioned in my last post above...different capacitor construction results to different parasitic elements of the cap...since a real cap is more than just an ideal capacitance value. Whether or not you can hear sonic differences from the subtle parasitic differences is the question, and if you do, then who is to say that you can't?

Very well, peace and harmony. The middle path is the one that leads to enlightenment.

[JamonHamon]

Originally Posted by JohnnyCrash

Somehow Mr. Mare always comes up in your posts :)


As far as his "testing"... is he testing them for their value of capacitance? What else in the world is he testing and how do you test for anything else?

I suspect he's cherry picking exact values that are nearly identical.

Tolerances what they are, no two .047 caps will actually be exactly the same (nor exactly .047 usually).

Also, poor BrianF shouldn't have to keep repeating himself - what in particular he is talking about he has doubts can be heard with the naked ear.

Certainly a cap of same measured value in a guitar will NOT be "night and day" or "cardboard vs pipe organ" - it wouldn't be that drastic between materials - in a guitar (especially with the voltages present). If it is different, it would be arguable if it could even be heard by the human ear.

Johnny are you OK today

I live close to Don and he is a friend of mine I am no expert but I do know tone

[11 Gauge]

Don is probably also cherry picking caps that work specifically for his winds.

Not only do different cap values alter the tones, but the specifics of the pickup used will alter things drastically, sometimes requiring a very different cap value.

I have a Harmonic Design S90 that sounds markedly darker with the same value tone cap as used on other pickups. This is why Scott himself oftentimes recommended that S90 users try a TBX, and possibly even change pot values.

I suspect Don's pickups are not heavily potted, either. Such a pickup would probably require a heavier cap value.

Once you start the "this cap sounds best with this pickup" thing, it gets way too subjective.

All of my guitars currently have ceramics - some replaced pricey (80 cent polys - HEE!) caps, and they sound the same (to me). Actually, when I go to grab another tone cap for a guitar, I go to my 'scrap box' of caps from amp parts. I've actually tried 150's and a whole mess of other mentioned caps above. I usually spec them out w/my Fluke, and go for no variance beyond 70 pF. I could probably go up to variances as much as 200 pF, and still not hear a difference.

Apparently, my hearing is not as sensitive. And I'm glad for it.

[JamonHamon]

Originally Posted by 11 Gauge

Don is probably also cherry picking caps that work specifically for his winds.

Not only do different cap values alter the tones, but the specifics of the pickup used will alter things drastically, sometimes requiring a very different cap value.

I have a Harmonic Design S90 that sounds markedly darker with the same value tone cap as used on other pickups. This is why Scott himself oftentimes recommended that S90 users try a TBX, and possibly even change pot values.

I suspect Don's pickups are not heavily potted, either. Such a pickup would probably require a heavier cap value.

Once you start the "this cap sounds best with this pickup" thing, it gets way too subjective.

All of my guitars currently have ceramics - some replaced pricey (80 cent polys - HEE!) caps, and they sound the same (to me). Actually, when I go to grab another tone cap for a guitar, I go to my 'scrap box' of caps from amp parts. I've actually tried 150's and a whole mess of other mentioned caps above. I usually spec them out w/my Fluke, and go for no variance beyond 70 pF. I could probably go up to variances as much as 200 pF, and still not hear a difference.

Apparently, my hearing is not as sensitive. And I'm glad for it.

Harmonic Design pickups are great sounding how do you like that S90

[curlyrick]

Fellas: this has been a good discussion.

Like many things, it seems, perhaps, to boil down to a debate between "faith in things unseen" and "cold, hard facts"--and that is a debate that's been raging for lo these many centuries, and continues, sadly and tragically, today in many serious areas that have nothing to do with Telecasters.

The good thing is, if none of this makes much difference, a goofball like me can't screw up too badly, and if these things do make some kind of (merely subjective?) difference, then bully for those Dr. Frankensteins who try to cobble bits and pieces to create their perfect monster.

To each his fetish.

Anyway: thanks for the full-throated defenses of your positions.

[JohnnyCrash]

Originally Posted by 11 Gauge

Once you start the "this cap sounds best with this pickup" thing, it gets way too subjective...

...Apparently, my hearing is not as sensitive. And I'm glad for it.

This is why these kinds of threads frustrate me to no end.

Then claims of tests and scoping waveforms and all of this other stuff pop up.

I can't count on two hands and two feet how many amps I've built or repaired and how many guitars I've rewired over the years. Forget about how a capacitor functions in conjunction with a resistor (a pot) in a guitar, this magic $30 cap sounds like "night and day" compared to...

So I say, just use whatever caps you like or think sounds best - whether its in your head or not... I'm thoroughly done discussing this topic (especially seeing as how a search can pull up piles on this topic that seems to pop up monthly).

Be happy, use what you like.

[11 Gauge]

Originally Posted by JamonHamon

Harmonic Design pickups are great sounding how do you like that S90

It didn't agree with my '71 Vibrolux Reverb at all.

Of course, I didn't fiddle with pot values, caps, adding a TBX, changing the heights on the polepieces, etc. - all of which Scott told me to try.

I basically like to drop in a pickup, tweak the height, and maybe swap out a cap for another value.

I'm in love with 250K pots because of the gradual taper. 500K and up do drastic changes, too fast.

Now I've got/modified a Marshall, and will be trying the S90 again and some point with that amp.

To me, the S90 does not sound like a P90, or a 'Tele pickup on steroids' as was claimed.

It's more of a flatter response, with more output.

I like to think of it as best suited for an overdriven amp - good for AC/DC and the like.

[JamonHamon]

Originally Posted by 11 Gauge

It didn't agree with my '71 Vibrolux Reverb at all.

Of course, I didn't fiddle with pot values, caps, adding a TBX, changing the heights on the polepieces, etc. - all of which Scott told me to try.

I basically like to drop in a pickup, tweak the height, and maybe swap out a cap for another value.

I'm in love with 250K pots because of the gradual taper. 500K and up do drastic changes, too fast.

Now I've got/modified a Marshall, and will be trying the S90 again and some point with that amp.

To me, the S90 does not sound like a P90, or a 'Tele pickup on steroids' as was claimed.

It's more of a flatter response, with more output.

I like to think of it as best suited for an overdriven amp - good for AC/DC and the like.

That's to bad some times things just don't work out,
does Scott offer rewinds

[11 Gauge]

I don't think so.

And like I said, his take on this is basically 'operator error,' because I didn't fiddle with pots, caps, polepieces, etc.

Can't really fault him on that, though. It's a radically different design. It makes sense that you have to tweak everything around it to get it to work.

And a lot of guys love it. There's simply no disputing that.

I think the best Harmonic Design pickup is the Z90. Unfortunately, it's not a Tele pickup.

There's also a bit of a wait with his stuff, and I don't like waiting. The S90 was a gift, so it was an exception.

I've found that the biggest determinants with most pickups tends to be pickup height and string gauge. Most of these can be dialed in to make most pickups work. Occaisionally, you'll get one that has a frequency response that you cannot get around. But fiddle with the 2 things above, along with adjusting the amp and using the tone control, and it's all good.

[ramseybella]

Hey Johnny!!
And now I feel Like a Jackass for starting this thread!!

[JamonHamon]

Originally Posted by ramseybella

Hey Johnny!!
And now I feel Like a Jackass for starting this thread!!

ramseybela!!

You are great, thanks for starting this tread your goal was to help with peoples tone and that's a wonderful thing!!!...

[JamonHamon]

Originally Posted by Wayne Alexander

I personally have tried different types/brands of caps ALL OF WHICH HAVE THE SAME MEASURED CAPACITANCE in guitars, and have found some not-so-subtle sonic differences in the sounds of those guitars, when the tone control pot is turned so the tone control is being used to reduced highs. In some cases I can also hear some difference in the sound when the tone control is full up. I have no idea whether those of you who say there's no difference in sound between a Hovland cap, a Mallory 150, a Sprague 715 series Orange Drop, an NOS Black Beauty or Bumblebee, a new Jensen Paper in Oil cap, or a ceramic cap, all of equal tested capacitance, in a guitar tone circuit. I have listened to all of those and there is absolutely a sonic character difference between caps of different construction and materials in a guitar tone circuit, even if the cap is only being used to "bleed off highs". Caps of different materials have all sorts of different measurable characteristics that can be heard. A simplistic statement would be that Hovlands sound the most "pure" and hi-fi, Jensen Paper in Oil and old Bumblebees and Black Beauties sound the fattest, and ceramic ones sound a bit harsh by comparison to the others, when the tone pot is turned about halfway, for instance. All I'm saying is that I can hear the difference, and I strongly prefer the sonic character of the Jensen Paper In Oil among new caps, and old (early 1960s or earlier) Bumblebees and Black Beauties OF EQUAL MEASURED CAPACITANCE in my guitars. If you have tried that and can't hear it, fine, but I can, and I know others who can as well. I personally tend to prefer using caps of a bit lower value than the "stock" choices, for my use, a cap of .033 to .04 sounds best in my teles.

1+ I missed this earlier thanks for your input

[Rob DiStefano]

Hehehehehehe - it's interesting to see how little people understand about guitar circuit passive tone pot caps (NOT to be confused with amp caps). All that matters about guitar non-electrolytic caps is the value and the build. You can talk a blue streak about $40 non-electrolytic caps but for my opinion, no one can accurately tell the tone modifying difference 'tween that over rated booteek cap and a 65 cent RS green weenie. Geez, passive tone pots are just sonic mufflers anyway, ...

[JohnnyCrash]

Originally Posted by Rob DiStefano

Hehehehehehe - it's interesting to see how little people understand about guitar circuit passive tone pot caps (NOT to be confused with amp caps). All that matters about guitar non-electrolytic caps is the value and the build. You can talk a blue streak about $40 non-electrolytic caps but for my opinion, no one can accurately tell the tone modifying difference 'tween that over rated booteek cap and a 65 cent RS green weenie. Geez, passive tone pots are just sonic mufflers anyway, ...

+1

Undertsanding the mechanics of what a tone cap is and how it interacts in a passive low voltage guitar scenario has been brushed aside... what was that old '80s Reagan era phrase? Voodoo Economics... there's gotta be a guitar oriented phrase for that here...

[curlyrick]

Voodoo Tone-o-metrics?
Voodoo Toneology?
Voodoo Lutherie?
Voodoo Nitrocellulosity?
Obsessive/Compulsive Pickup Disorder?
Adult On-set Obsessive Attention to Irrelevant Detail Disorder (AOOAIDD)
Manic Depression?

[JohnnyCrash]

Originally Posted by curlyrick

Obsessive/Compulsive Pickup Disorder?

HAHAHAHA

I think we all suffer from this one. I know I do :(