Using High Dollar Cap’s for the Plank?

[dibber124]

For what it's worth:
I tried out a idea I had along time ago on my last rewire of one of my tele's (Fralin lead, GFS Little puncher neck, 4-way and s/p switch for the GFS)
Mounted a Lorlin rotary switch with these cap values:.1, .047, .022, .01, none. Five choices for a tone cap. Using 250K controls the range of tones is really interesting. The tone cap is part of a rather complex R-C-L circuit, highly reactive. What I refer to as a"so-called passive" circuit. Someone posted the formula but it is beyond me, "Terry Downs " or "e-man" may have it.Used WIMA poly caps that cost about $.50 each. Type of cap is really not a factor in shunt caps. (Through signal caps are a different matter, but that is going off topic.) The really important factor is the value of the cap, not what it is made of. One exception would be really cheap ceramic caps. These can be microphonic an resonate erratically.

[11 Gauge]

Originally Posted by dibber124

One exception would be really cheap ceramic caps. These can be microphonic an resonate erratically.

You will never ever hear a ceramic cap do this if it's mounted inside the guitar. You need at least 50 volts to get that to happen, more like 100+.

The very first overhaul that I do to any tube amp that has cheap components is to yank the ceramics that they use for bright switches, treble caps, etc....

...in a pinch, they end up in my guitars. They sound identical to any other cap of the same value.

There is absolutely no way to tell the difference between a poly, metal film, ceramic, tantalum, oil filled, or any other type of cap of the same value, i.e. micro or picofarads, in a passive shunt to ground guitar tone circuit.

Think of it as a guillotine blade in different widths. One can be made of stainless, another of chromium molybdenum, whatever. The width of the blade determines how much the blade can chop off, not what it is made out of (within reason ).

[dibber124]

Originally Posted by 11 Gauge

You will never ever hear a ceramic cap do this if it's mounted inside the guitar. You need at least 50 volts to get that to happen, more like 100+.

The very first overhaul that I do to any tube amp that has cheap components is to yank the ceramics that they use for bright switches, treble caps, etc....

...in a pinch, they end up in my guitars. They sound identical to any other cap of the same value.

There is absolutely no way to tell the difference between a poly, metal film, ceramic, tantalum, oil filled, or any other type of cap of the same value, i.e. micro or picofarads, in a passive shunt to ground guitar tone circuit.

Think of it as a guillotine blade in different widths. One can be made of stainless, another of chromium molybdenum, whatever. The width of the blade determines how much the blade can chop off, not what it is made out of (within reason ).

Interesting... in many of the Scott and Eico amps I rebuild the ceramic caps in the tone/eq circuits have zero DC on them but they sound like crap. I replace them with Panasonic PPS and the results are very good. But these are AC voltages of 1-5 V present, not the millivolt levels seen at the guitar/pup level. I'll have to check into this, never gave any thought to AC level effecting ceramic caps. Thanks for the idea

[BrianF]

Originally Posted by dibber124

Interesting... in many of the Scott and Eico amps I rebuild the ceramic caps in the tone/eq circuits have zero DC on them but they sound like crap. I replace them with Panasonic PPS and the results are very good. But these are AC voltages of 1-5 V present, not the millivolt levels seen at the guitar/pup level. I'll have to check into this, never gave any thought to AC level effecting ceramic caps. Thanks for the idea

The old caps may have values that are drifted or out of spec over time. Replace them with new ceramic and see if you get the same results.

Electronics is not black magic. It really is an exact science....the differences that you hear (if persceptible) really are due to component electrical values that are different in the circuit...not the color or construction etc.

[dibber124]

Originally Posted by BrianF

The old caps may have values that are drifted or out of spec over time. Replace them with new ceramic and see if you get the same results.

Electronics is not black magic. It really is an exact science....the differences that you hear (if persceptible) really are due to component electrical values that are different in the circuit...not the color or construction etc.

Agree with you, there is no voodoo in electronics. However component construction and materials do have an effect on sound. In theory all amplifiers sound the same if the specs are the same, but tube amps have a different quality than solid state. All capacitors that measure .1 uf should sound the same, at least on paper. If this were really true companies like Conrad-Johnson and Audio Reasearch would use Xicon ceramic disc caps for signal coupling in their amps. At least for caps I believe there are great sonic differences between brands, construction.

[GuitarJonz]

There's always gonna be those who say that all caps of the same value, used in a guitar circuit, are the same, and there is no difference in sound. There are others who have tested different caps of the same value, and say they can hear a substantial difference. Not really worth an argument, but an interesting topic, and it might be worth a try to see if I can hear a difference by using one of the older NOS caps. It's all what YOU hear, not what some electronics book or EE might say. Hey, it's cheaper than a new set of pickups, and pretty harmless fun in the tonequest.

[scooteraz]

Originally Posted by dibber124

Agree with you, there is no voodoo in electronics. However component construction and materials do have an effect on sound. In theory all amplifiers sound the same if the specs are the same, but tube amps have a different quality than solid state. All capacitors that measure .1 uf should sound the same, at least on paper. If this were really true companies like Conrad-Johnson and Audio Reasearch would use Xicon ceramic disc caps for signal coupling in their amps. At least for caps I believe there are great sonic differences between brands, construction.

The difference is that in an amp you are listening to the signal that the cap passes. In a guitar, you are not (that signal, for lack of a better term, gets thrown away). So, yes, in amplifiers at higher voltages and currents, you will hear the distortion caused by the parasitic resistance and inductance in a capacitor. Therefore capacitors can make a difference there. That is just not true in a guitar, even if we stipulate that the differences in the caps exist.

So, while as GuitarJonz says it is pretty harmless fun in the tonequest, if you are spending your own money you might like to know that you don't have to spend more than about $0.50 (US) on a cap. The way I see it, it gives you between $29.50 and $39.50 per guitar to spend on other tone toys. Now, if you have the money to burn and jsut have to scratch that itch...there is no law against it, nor is it immoral, not even fattening.

[BrianF]

Originally Posted by dibber124

However component construction and materials do have an effect on sound.

If the construction and materials have an effect on sound....the ONLY way this is possible is if the mechanical construction adds any parasitic elements to the circuit such that it is no longer just a pure capacitor. ie stray inductance, resistance will effect the result.

[scooteraz]

Originally Posted by BrianF

If the construction and materials have an effect on sound....the ONLY way this is possible is if the mechanical construction adds any parasitic elements to the circuit such that it is no longer just a pure capacitor. ie stray inductance, resistance will effect the result.

Brian, you are right, it is these construction issues that cause the differences. But even then, the effect exists only substantially on the signal coming OUT of the capacitor, not the signal going in. In a guitar we hear the signal going in, minus the frequencies passed.

[Wayne Alexander]

I personally have tried different types/brands of caps ALL OF WHICH HAVE THE SAME MEASURED CAPACITANCE in guitars, and have found some not-so-subtle sonic differences in the sounds of those guitars, when the tone control pot is turned so the tone control is being used to reduced highs. In some cases I can also hear some difference in the sound when the tone control is full up. I have no idea whether those of you who say there's no difference in sound between a Hovland cap, a Mallory 150, a Sprague 715 series Orange Drop, an NOS Black Beauty or Bumblebee, a new Jensen Paper in Oil cap, or a ceramic cap, all of equal tested capacitance, in a guitar tone circuit. I have listened to all of those and there is absolutely a sonic character difference between caps of different construction and materials in a guitar tone circuit, even if the cap is only being used to "bleed off highs". Caps of different materials have all sorts of different measurable characteristics that can be heard. A simplistic statement would be that Hovlands sound the most "pure" and hi-fi, Jensen Paper in Oil and old Bumblebees and Black Beauties sound the fattest, and ceramic ones sound a bit harsh by comparison to the others, when the tone pot is turned about halfway, for instance. All I'm saying is that I can hear the difference, and I strongly prefer the sonic character of the Jensen Paper In Oil among new caps, and old (early 1960s or earlier) Bumblebees and Black Beauties OF EQUAL MEASURED CAPACITANCE in my guitars. If you have tried that and can't hear it, fine, but I can, and I know others who can as well. I personally tend to prefer using caps of a bit lower value than the "stock" choices, for my use, a cap of .033 to .04 sounds best in my teles.

[BrianF]

Wayne.. I believe you have just re-stated what we have just mentioned without realizing it. You stated that the caps with different construction sounded different although the measured capacitance is the same. The problem with this is that the parasitic elements are not stated and not measured, and are present and most likely different.

This leads me to modify my stance...If the parasitics are markedly different between the different types, and if the differences result in audible differences... then I believe we are all correct...it's just a matter of understanding why...and the 'why' is due to the varying parasitic elements of a real capacitor, which is compromised of the main intended capacitance, series inductance, series resistance, and high value shunt resistance.

Incidentally...discrete circuit element such as caps and resistors usually have manufacturers suggested circuit applications for the various types of construction for this very reason...ie the stray parasitic elements cause the device perfrom better/worse in various applications..

[BrianF]

Minimizing the importance of the tone cap, merely because it is 'bleeding off highs'...which it does... is unfair.

Overall the circuit network is a complex connection of passive elements...R's, C's, and L's..the pickups themselves are complex...and react and peak diferrently with subtle load changes... That load includes the Tone Pot and Cap. Resonances may exist in the tone circuit such that even though it is bleeding off highs....its all a linear circuit so the results are seen directly on the signal itself that feeds to the amp.

The acid test for all this would be a spectrum analyzer were connected to the the input jack of the amp, and the spectrum captured for each different capacitor type. The audible differences MIGHT be visible in the spectrum display... I say MIGHT because the differences may be so slight that it would be difficult to discern even visually...but they would be there..

There is a product (I forget the name) that you can buy that replaces your Tone pot with a new pot with rotary selections and it selects through 16 different passive RC values that load your pickups. This is an example of the wide range of tonal possibilities that you can achieve with passive networks, so it is completely reasonable that various caps with different construction/parasitics can result in audible differences.

[BrianF]

Thinking more about the parasitic elements of a real capacitor...it makes sense to me that not all these parasitics make much of a difference...at audio frequencies. I would be very surprised if series inductance makes much difference since the values are very small. Series ressistance doesn't seem like it would be much of a factor either since that would be swamped by the series resistance of the POT circuit. Stray SHUNT Resistance....would be my guess at the dominant parasitic element...

If we had accurate circuit models of each capacitor type...we could simulate them all and SEE what you hear.

Question: About the statement that "all capacitors had the same measured value". This leads to a question of how where they measured? and at what applied voltage, and what that voltage equal to the voltage present in a guitar tone circuit...ie zero volts. In other words caps could be measured to be equal at some voltage...and at another voltage some of the caps values would be different.

[BrianF]

For those who might be confused about what these parasitics are...here's a diagram... a real capacitor is more than just the main capacitance.


and an example of a capacitor application chart

and application article
http://www.planetanalog.com/features...leID=199905942

and even more intersting info/article
http://sound.westhost.com/articles/capacitors.htm

[JohnnyCrash]

Let me get this straight... guys like Wayne have a capactiance meter and make sure all of his caps are 99.99% similar values, then solder the components, unsolder, resolder, etc and use something as reliable as an ear to measure the similarities? Theories and facts aside, they can hear a difference?

Come on guys... we're looking at miniscule voltages IN A GUITAR. The info isn't withdoctor stuff.

Let me guess, the next claims are that you make sure the exact same mass of solder is used, you use a spectrum analyzer, and you test the pots for any changes heat may have made to the carbon between cap swaps.

Give me a break - its a friggin cap.

[maxvintage]

Well I remain skeptical--I class this with guys who claim they can hear the difference with silver wire, or which end of the cord goes into the guitar. I can't hear it-- my ears vary more with my mood than these kind of subtle distinctions and as always, practice will make you sound better than switching caps.

[GuitarJonz]

Originally Posted by JohnnyCrash

Let me get this straight... guys like Wayne have a capactiance meter and make sure all of his caps are 99.99% similar values, then solder the components, unsolder, resolder, etc and use something as reliable as an ear to measure the similarities? Theories and facts aside, they can hear a difference?

Come on guys... we're looking at miniscule voltages IN A GUITAR. The info isn't withdoctor stuff.

Let me guess, the next claims are that you make sure the exact same mass of solder is used, you use a spectrum analyzer, and you test the pots for any changes heat may have made to the carbon between cap swaps.

Give me a break - its a friggin cap.

Well, when you don't agree with something that someone else posts here, you can say so without ridiculing and pooping all over them. You dont have to agree, just disagree politely.

[JohnnyCrash]

I can disagree more politely, but sometimes people begin making claims that are a bit farfetched and that bugged me since I didn't have my coffee yet.

I do apologize.

Still, who measures 4 different caps for exact capacitance? It does beg the question of "what next, spectral analyzers?" and flies in the face of the technical facts...

But, I have had my coffee and my migraine of last night has miraculously disappeared (good old pills)...

So again, I am sorry for being so grumpy - its not like me (and when it is, I feel like a total jackass - like I do right now).

[BrianF]

There HAS to be differences...based on the real (not-imagined) circuit differences. Whether or you can or cannot or 'convinced yourself you can hear it" is really the question.

[dibber124]

Originally Posted by BrianF

If the construction and materials have an effect on sound....the ONLY way this is possible is if the mechanical construction adds any parasitic elements to the circuit such that it is no longer just a pure capacitor. ie stray inductance, resistance will effect the result.

Well, you seem to agree that all capacitors are not the same, so why not accept that some sonic difference exists between, say, ceramic and poly/foil types like Hovlands? (in signal pass caps)