disenchanted with Bill Lawrence

[Arlo]

Stuh just wrap it with foam and snug it into the cavity under the control plate. Usually plenty of room in there. Just like Teleman77 suggested.

[tdu]

Originally Posted by Joe Harris

How upset are you with Fender for selling you a noisy pickup ? How upset are you with Fender for making you spend more $$$ to replace that noisy pup ? Does Fender make you aware of their noisy pickups before via their website or catalog before you purchase one of their guitars ? My '75 Fender Custom squealed ad infinitum until I changed the bridge. I never received a disclaimer from Fender before my purchase but I did what I had to do in order to make the Custom playable.

You had to invest money to get that Fender in order ... now you have to invest money to get the Lawrence pickup in order. One thing leads to another , it's the nature of the beast.The vast majority of the topics here concern modifications and upgrades to make your Tele function optimally. You can't can't paint Bill & Becky as being negligent or deceitful. I see no variation from other manufactures in regards to the standard of service or advertising.

BTW - My James Burton has the 280/290 combo WITH the magnetic bridge and it works perfectly sans microphonics. Ya win some ya lose some.

I wasn't implying they are bad people. Buying from a 'speciality' company like that though, yes I would expect a little more. All I am saying is if I was the original poster, I wouldn't be happy either. Some people on here have endless money for mods. I am not one of those people. If I bought the pickups and had that problem, I would be completely screwed. I couldn't afford a whole new bridge to resolve the problem. If that makes me some kind of jerk, then sorry.

[Joe Harris]

Originally Posted by tdu

If that makes me some kind of jerk, then sorry.

My Brother my brother, no one is implying that you are a jerk. My point is that how many people buy a Fender guitar and end up investing more ducketts to get it in playing shape ? Fender sells a guitar with noisy pickups , shoddy pots, etc etc and nobody complains. We are conditioned to accept what we are given by them. When a similar issue occurs with a small company some people go up in arms. I find it unfair to single out Lawrence. I'd like to compair the bottom lines of Fender and Lawrence and see who is more economically able to deal and improve on the above issues.

[Clucker]

Joe I think you are missing the point. The Lawrence pickups are advertised as noiseless. To me this would indicate that they eliminate all noise, not exchange one type of annoying noise for another type of even more annoying noise. It is just bad business. If what they really mean to say is that their pickups will stop 60 cycle hum but will also make the feedback factor even more pronounced than it was with the stock fender single coils, then that is exactly what they should say. maybe they should advertise is this Our stratocaster pickups are noiseless but our telecaster pickups are sorta, kinda,almost, well not really noiseless at all pickups. I too just can not afford to be replacing the ashtray bridge. I am a musician, music is my job. I am not a lawyer or a doctor or dentist that can just piss away lot's of money on a hobby and I must plan my purchases accordingly.This is no hobby to me, it is how I make my living.Bill's advertisement is based on a lie and due to that reason I have very little respect for him. Now if he wants to buy me a brass non- magnetic bridge then I would feel different, but at this point I know I got screwed and I am not going to change my mind. If I knew how poorly this was going to turn out, I could have just bought some Bardens oe EMG's and be done with it. Sure it would just as much as getting the new bridge and maybe I would be a little less impressed with the sound,but at least I could go to my gigs knowing that I wouldn't be in danger of paralyzing feedback,even at extremely low levels of gain.

[rocksteady Max]

Sadly those are the things you can only realize after the problem occured ...

[Joe Harris]

I'm sorry that this happened to you. If I can help you in any way, be it locating a bridge or PUPs, let me know.

[JayFreddy]

Originally Posted by Clucker

...I am never doing business with the Lawrence family again... Bill's advertisement is based on a lie and due to that reason I have very little respect for him.

Those are pretty strong words. What did your emails with Becky come to?

It bothers me to hear such negative words when all my experiences with these people and their products have been so positive.

I understand being disappointed because the pickups didn't work out the way you planned, but to go on a public forum and call Bill a liar is probably not the best way to get the problem fixed.

I have the exact same set of pickups in one of my Tele-types, with no noise. As others have posted here, the majority of people have no problems with these pickups, even using a vintage style bridge.

No one is perfect, but my guess is that Becky & Bill would be more than happy to exchange your pickups for a different set if you were to simply ask nicely.

If Becky & Bill are not willing to do that, please post any emails you sent/received pertaining to this order.

It saddens me to hear your claim that Becky & Bill are dishonest. If it's true and can be substantiated, I will have no choice but to take my business elsewhere as well...

[Becky Lawrence]

Hi Everyone. Here's an earlier post of Bill's which I copied and pasted for you to read:

The subject of the question is: How would an aluminum bridge plate compare with other Tele bridge plates?

To address this in detail would require some twenty pages of information ranging from classical to quantum mechanical functions. For days I’m trying to find a way to easily explain this subject. First, we must understand that the Tele bridge plate serves two totally different functions:

A: The mechanical functions

B: The electrodynamic functions.

“A” deals with the behavior of compressed waves in a medium. Most -- but not all -- bodies are more or less elastic. The greater the elastic properties and the lesser the density of the medium the faster a pulse propogates throughout the medium. Some aluminum alloys, cast Bell bronze and some steel alloys hardened to Rockwell C60 would be an excellent choice for the bridge saddles. The steel guitar makers are aware of this and use for their bridge saddles either Dur aluminum or hardened steel.

As you can see, we have quite a few options for the bridge saddles, but when it comes to the bridge plate, we are confronted with some different problems that cannot be solved without causing other problems that change the performance of our beloved Telecaster. This leads us right to B -- the electrodynamic functions of the tele bridge plate.

“B” deals with magnetism, eddy currents and the permeability of different alloys. Any metal close to the coil of a pickup will interfere with the signal that is generated by the vibrations of the strings. Cold roll steel has a high permeability which will increase the output of the pickup, but due to its high eddy current potential, reduces the highs and output.

440 magnetic stainless steel hardened to Rockwell C60 has about the same permeability as Cold roll and a much lower eddy current potential. 440 stainless, as well as Cold roll, can cause at high volume levels microphonic squealing.

301 spring tempered stainless steel has a hardness of Brinell 382, not quite as hard as 440 but hard enough for the bridge plate. 301 has the advantage that it has neither a positive nor a negative permeability, and therefore, does not interfere with the tone and the output of the pickup. 301 stainless will not cause microphonics.

Some brass alloys have excellent acoustical properties. Due to their eddy current potential, it will have some losses in output and highs. Brass will not cause microphonics.

Titanium Grade 5 ( GAL-4V) seems to have excellent acoustical properties. I’ve not yet had the chance to measure its electrodynamical function , and therefore, I have no information available. If somebody can send me for a few days a titanium bridge plate , I will measure the electrodynamic properties and will post the result right here on the tdpri.

Now let’s talk about aluminum. While aluminum has some of the best acoustical properties it has, by far, the worst properties to use for the bridge plate. It’s like salt in a soup -- small quantities can perform miracles but too much will ruin your dinner. Aluminum has an extremely high eddy current potential and when placed under a pickup ( grounded or not grounded) can make a hum bucker hum like a single coil, or make a single coil as quiet as a hum bucker. This all depends on the thickness of the plate. At about ½” thickness your single coil will be as quiet as a hum bucker, but you also lose about 60% output and about the same amount of highs. Leo used a .015 aluminum plate under the pick guard of his 54 Strat to reduce some of the hum and the buzz and take a little bit of the edge from the pickup, resulting in a very musical, sweet tone.

Aluminum has some strange properties, and it’s the only commercially available metal I know of that can eliminate the buzz caused by light dimmers. An inch thick copper or brass shield cannot reduce the buzz caused by light dimmers but .003 thick aluminum foil can! This is known some thirty years and the reason why Belden introduced double shielded cable ( Copper braid plus aluminum foil). There is one problem for guitar cords -- the double shielding makes the cable too stiff . It helps quite a bit when you shield your guitar with copper and aluminum foil.

Try this one-- wire a single coil to a jack and plug it into your amp. Put the pickup on a table next to your amp. Take an aluminum pan from your kitchen and put it slowly on top of your single coil and watch the hum disappear.

Bill


Here are two excerpts from my second post on this thread:

Literally thousands of customers have used various types of bridges with our noisefree pickups over the years, including the old-style ashtray bridge, but that particular combination of the "vintage" bridge and a modern noisefree pickup occasionally requires some extra attention to setup or some minor modifications like adding extra mounting holes and screws to the front of the bridge plate -- and, even with a traditional single-coil, those ferrous bridges aren't ideal for high gain and/or distorted playing. ( Btw, we've offered the noisefree singles for Telecaster since 1995!)

And:

The same goes for "dropping" noisefrees into an otherwise "vintage" guitar -- depending on your playing habits and requirements, other changes may very well be needed.

Remember, the Tele bridge and Tele pickup need to thought of as an assembly because it becomes one unit on the instrument!

Clucker, you wrote, "they are charging $68.00" for the L-298TL. Just so you and others know, I pulled your handwritten order and that is not true. In fact, you paid $56.00 as the L-298TL has been priced since we introduced it in 2005. Actually, you paid for a set of two pickups $103.00, 50 cents less than what we quoted to you. ( L-280TN $40.00 + L-298TL $56.00 + S/H7.50 = $103.50) Not a big deal, and sometimes we overlook when orders are added incorrectly to our disadvantage.

Becky

[Ringo]

Not trying to beat a dead horse here, but I thought I'd post my admittedly limited experiences with various Tele bridge pickups.

I've used several different "noiseless" Tele bridge pickups over the past year or two.
These include the Bill Lawrence T290 and T298, GFS Lil Puncher and Hot Lil Puncher, which are dual rail pickups, and the Dimarzio Virtual Vintage and Hot Virtual Vintage.

All of these were in the same guitar, with the same MIJ Fender vintage stamped steel bridgeplate. I also have used Fralin, Harmonic Design and Fender single coils with this bridge.

The only pickups that I had real problems with when using gain were the Bill Lawrence pickups.
The problem was bad enough that I sold both BL pickups.

The Dimarzio pickups DID NOT have this problem, nor did the cheap GFS pu's or any of the single coils mentioned.

Apparently there is more involved here than just the bridge plate and type of metal that it is made out of.

I know a lot of old Fender Teles have microphonic pickups, and I know some feel that that is part of the "character" of a Tele, but I don't like microphonic pickups.

I've decided that I prefer the tone of single coils , I'll live with the "noise".

Based on my personal experience with the BL pu's I won't be trying any more of them in vintage style Tele bridges, which is the type bridge that I prefer on a Telecaster.

[kp8]

Originally Posted by Becky Lawrence

We do include a sheet with the pickups explaining what I basically posted before plus more.

It would seem to me that getting all this information in the box with the pickup is too late. This is information the buyer need before making his or her decision.

Is this information available to the public to help them understand and decide before they make a purchase?




-kp8--

[JohnS]

I have a 2000 Am Ser Tele with "Blazing Saddles" compensated 3 barrel brass bridge pieces in the stock brass bridge plate and a Lawrence T298-L pup. Toneful and noiseless in San Jose. Thanks Bill and Becky for a great product.
Do what you gots to do.

[Joe Harris]

I bought this Fender Custom brand new in 1975. For 25 years she squealed like a stuck pig anytime I turned the volume up. Bill Lawrence pickups solved the problem ... a L-490 in the neck and a 290 in the bridge. The bridge in the photo was installed a couple of years after the Lawrence PUPs were installed and was installed for the cutaway, not for microphonic problems.

[Tele-phone man]

I have an L280TL that I've used in 2 different Tele's with both modern and vintage style bridges. I've never had a microphonic issue. Of course, I've never had ANY microphonic problem with my Tele's no matter what pickup I've used. Obviously, my sample is too small to draw any conclusions, except for one: there is no inherent reason why the Lawrence pups would be more microphonic than any others. If that were the case, they would never have been able to sell so many over all these years. Your situation is a very rare case. I'll bet that a fairly simple, straightforward mechanical solution was available to you. Let me give you and example: When installing a Tele bridge pup last year (I forget the make and model), I found that the mounting holes didn't line up correctly with the bridge holes. I "made" it fit by angling the forward screw through the hole. It was difficult to get the pup to the correct height, and the angled screw put undo tension into the pickup baseplate. That pup sqealed! To correct it, I had to slightly elongate the hole in the bridge for the front screw with a dremel. After puting the pickup back in, I found the sqealing gone.
Others have found that the addition of another screw through the leading edge of the bridge plate to be enough to fix the problem. Still others have found that dense foam under the bridge pup can help. Failing that, the possibility exists that your particular pup was a lemon, and I would be very surprised if you could not get Becky to make an exchange.

[boneyguy]

In terms of significantly reducing 60hz hum I followed the sheilding directions on guitarnuts.com. The directions for shielding a Tele are found in "Taming the Beast's Cousin" on that site. It is a very simple remedy. I just installed some GFS single coils in my Tele and with the sheilding they are extremely quiet even at high vol with a fair amount of overdrive. BTW to my ear they are great sounding Tele p/u's.
In general most guitars get minimal if any shielding during manufacture. It does make a huge difference.

[JayFreddy]

For completely noiseless pickups, try unplugging your guitar...

Sorry but I'm not convinced that Clucker has done everything he can to fix the problem on his end. From the info presented in this thread, calling Bill a liar seems completely unjustified and downright RUDE.

If I'm wrong, I apologize, but unless Clucker can post evidence that Becky & Bill intentionally tried to deceive him, I think he's the one who should be apologizing...

Becky & Bill, keep doing what you're doing. All of the advice I've gotten from Becky over the years has been spot-on, without exception. You can't please everyone all of the time, but you've done right by me. I'm very happy with my L250's, L280's, L290T, L298T, L450, L490, L500's, L550's, L560's, and SCN's. I like the Keystones too, but don't own any yet...

I will be getting more Lawrence pickups in the future.

[tdu]

I am not taking anyone sides in a debate here. I only made my original post because from the replies the original poster got from BL about his issues, one would get the impression that this problem might be common. Maybe I am wrong, but that's totally what it seems like.

[Geo]

Can a magnetised bridge plate be demagnetised or ??Degaussed?
Probably not but.......
I remember demagnetising reel to reel tape in a studio with a
demagnetiser in the '70s.

[rand z]

i have a 490, L 500 and the Keystones. they are all very clean sounding and well balanced. they are responsive yet refined and are versatile enough for me to play blues, country, r & b and pop. the little duo i play in requires a bit of each of these styles and, though i have bardens, harmonic designs, duncans, dimarzios, gfs, oc duff, carvins and a few others, i have found myself going for the tele or the strat with the lawrence pups most of the time.

this is a little surprising to me...

i intentionally installed these various pups in about ten different guitars and played them at many gigs to see which one/ones worked and sounded the best. i let myself, over a period of about 1 - 2 years, just kinda gravitate to whatever guitar/pups i liked the best...

... and, the guitars with the lawrences apparently pleased my ear over most of the others.

realistically, i must say that i still love my 76 tele with the bardens; it is my fave for 30 years, and the best sounding and playing guitar the i own, but ive played it in so many smokey bars and whatever, and though its still very playable, i decided to semi retire it from regular active duty. (i still use it at special events and festivals)

ive accidentally found that i like lawrence pups.

imho.

rand z

[Arlo]

There are sooooooo many variables that can cause the noise problems.

Noiseless pickups do not exist. They may never exist.

To think there are noiseless pickups is like believing in Santa, Easter Bunny or the Tooth Fairy. It is the line of thought that, some pickups are less noisy than others and that which ones fit your criteria and environment that will at best yield results that may satisfy you. Your playing style, amp, surroundings and environment play a bigger part in the noise than the pickup itself. But most people can't go have their house rewired just to calm down 60 cycle hum. I deal with it constantly in my very old home.

When recording I have to find a sweet spot and pretty much stay there. That is a lot of fun!! Not.

Think of it this way: Noiseless Pickups are like Fad Diets. They can work to a certain extent but it is the added exercise and discipline that actually controls the end result. Not just the diet or in this case the pickup itself.

All pickup designers thrive on the ultimate goal of noiseless. Even the Variax claims it is noiseless and it is to a great extent. But the Variax acoustic pickup signal is processed and converted and not a true pickup sound.

I have been hot headed about issues that have left me feeling like I wasted money before so I do sympathize with you to a degree.

So with that in mind when you choose a pickup remember that it is a gamble which may or may not pay off. Telecasters and Stratocasters are by their design inherently noisy. This is something we all have to deal with until some miracle happens. I wouldn't hold my breath too long waiting for it though.

PS. I have used Bill's pickups since the 70's and I have recorded many an album with them. I think he is one of the worlds best at what he does. That's my opinion for the record.

[Arlo]

Originally Posted by Tele-phone man

Failing that, the possibility exists that your particular pup was a lemon, and I would be very surprised if you could not get Becky to make an exchange.

I had thought the exact same thing. I have gotten lemons before from Bill. And I sent them back and got new ones.

You may have gotten a dud. It happens.

[david henman]

Originally Posted by Arlo

Noiseless pickups do not exist. They may never exist.
To think there are noiseless pickups is like believing in Santa, Easter Bunny or the Tooth Fairy. [/i]

...the bill lawrence L280s that i had in my strat plus were dead quiet, under that absolute worst conditions imaginable. to wit:

my 86 strat plus came with gold lace sensors. they worked quite well, except at one particular club, where the noise was easily double that of the actual guitar signal (imagine what it would have been like with traditional single coils!!!).

because we played this club regularly, i ordered a set of L280s from bill and becky. i got them installed and used them that very night at that same club. during sound check, i cranked everything, including my ultra high gain distortion boxes. the silence was music to my ears. the silence bore, in fact, a rather close resemblance to what, i believe, most of us refer to as "noiseless". could it be that "dead quiet", "silent" and "noiseless" are, in fact, the same thing or, at the very least, remarkably similar?

i recently sold those L280s, which was a huge mistake, as i subsequently discovered that the tone killer in that strat plus was the graph tech saddles.

i will, eventually, order another set of bill lawrence's so-called noiseless pickups, if only to set things right.

oh, look, a bunny rabbit...

-dh

[Ray G]

I have L280's in one of my tele's and there is no noise unless I walk up to my amp when it's turned up to 7 or 8 and point the guitar directly into the speaker grill then there is some slight noise... all in all they are great pickups.

The new Lawrence Keystones I have in another Tele are not only the best sounding Tele replacements I've ever used they quietest vintage style pickup I've ever used and very reasonably priced I might add.

Much thanks to Bill and Becky.

[Clucker]

#1 I don't doubt that Bill and Becky are nice
#2 I think all their pickups sound good.
#3 This is the second set in two years I have bought that has had the same problem of squealing even with very light amounts of gain. Someone made the comment that maybe I got a dud, but what are the odds of this happening to the same guy twice in two years time with two different tele's.
#4 I still stand by my statement that it is wrong to advertise pickups as being "noiseless" or even less noisy, when in fact the customer is going to have to shell out an extra $50.00-$125.00 to help the pickups actually be quiet. That is just plain wrong. I have no problem at all paying what the manufacturer charges, but to pay the initial fee and then be told, oh by the way you need to shell out x amount of dollars for a brass bridge etc. That reallly burns me up, and it is obvious from the posts that I am not the only one that this has happened to. If the Lawrences want to sell tele pickups that need a brass bridge to work correctly, then that should be stated up front, not after the fact.

[Mark Davis]

I have never bought a Lawrence product but it does seem they always try to help and give good customer service.

So let me try to understand. You bought a set that squealed and then you bought another set that squealed?? Seems like you would have learned your lesson on the 1st set???

[Becky Lawrence]

1. Anybody compared the Samarium Cobalt to the B.L. 280's
http://www.tdpri.com/forum/just-pick...-b-l-280s.html

November 9th, 2005
One of my students has a new strat with the samarium cobalts and I thought they were nice but a bit lacking in the high and and definetely lacking the quack in the in between positions. I have long been considering buying a set of 280's for my strat. I wondered if anybody has had a chance to compare the two? I have the 280 tele pickups in my tele and I think they are great. They sound like a good tele with the high end rolled off just a bit so as not to be so ice picky. I would like to get some opinions on the 280s strat pickups pickups before I take the plunge. I currently have the EMG David Gilmour setup in my strat but am looking for something a bit more natural sounding with less bells and whistles. Also, if anybody lives in New England, particurly Mass. and has a set in your strat already I would be interesed in trying them out at your convenience.
Thank you in advance, Clucker.

2. Bill Lawrence vs. Fender SCN Pickups?
http://www.tdpri.com/forum/just-pick...n-pickups.html

February 12, 2006
I love Lawrence single coils I don't know about the strat pickups, but I have the B.L. tele pickups in my tele and they are quite bight but not in an annoying way.Of course I always wind up turning the tone pot down a bit on most teles anyway but with the Lawrence pickups I don't have to do that, so they are perfect for me. I actually compared the B'L's to the stock pickups in a paisley reissue and if I turned the tone pot on the paisley back to about 8 they sounded indentical The neck pickups is a bit more like a really good strat pickup. I tried the SCN's in a guitar that belong to a student of mine and I thought they were a bit muddy. I actually would have taken a set of gold lace sensors over the SCN's and that says a lot because I am not very enamored of the lace sensors . One thing I did notice about the B'L' is that they take to distortion better than any single coil I have ever used. There cleans are very good when you crank up the gain whether it be through an amp or through a stomp box, they just sing. Lots of nice Roy Buchanen type squeaks galore. I am very happy with my purchase and particurly for the money they are fantastic.x
ymmv, Shawn.

3. Gatton type wah sounds with EMG's
http://www.tdpri.com/forum/tele-tech...unds-emgs.html

May 30, 2006
Thanks MaestroI was hopin' you might respond. I tried it and it still seemed kind of weak, or maybe I am weak,lol. I have been getting some cool sounds out of my B.L. 280 by the way. I am still considering putting some EMG's in a new tele.
Thnaks again, Shawn.

4. How many in here have used EMG T pickups?
http://www.tdpri.com/forum/just-pick...t-pickups.html

June 26, 2006
I had a set a couple years ago and am thinking again that it was a mistake to get rid of them. I have a Bill Lawrence 280's in my tele now and while I like them for distortion, they really aint cuttin it for clean and don't have the sustain I am used to. I have the David Gilmour setup in my Strat and an 85 bridge,60 neck in my PRS, so I guess I have been spoiled by the sustain and the powerof my other EMG's Any opinions would be much appreciated.
Clucker.

5. Need advice about changing pickups
http://www.tdpri.com/forum/tele-tech...g-pickups.html

March 23, 2007
First let me say. I am a musician first, and I am almost totally clueless about guitar repair. However I am getting tired of having guitar techs do work that I could probably do just as well myself at home.I can and do set up the action and intonation on my guitars and I have become quite good at that. The problem I am faced with now is. I want to tear my Bill Lawrence's out of my tele and replace them with a set of EMG T pickups.
I guess my question is. How hard is this to do? I already have the pots wired up (they came that way from the previous owner)and I just need to attach the pickups to them, but I am totally clueless about wiring. When I look at a schematic it doesn't look to me like the wiring in the guitar. I know it is the wiring but it just doesn't make sense to me because I am a total technlogical neophyte and never got into electronics via cars or any other guy things that most of you probably did. I have always been a guitar hermit but I want to change that so bad and the wiring thing has really got me down. I GUESS MY REAL QUESTION IS, SHOULD I PURSUE THIS OR SHOULD I JUST WIMP OUT AND PAY SOMEBODY ELSE TO DO IT. I am thinking that EMG's are probably easier to install in that you don't need to worry about grounding issues right? So I really think this might be a confidence builder for me as a first project.
What do ya'll think?

6. EMG T's
http://www.tdpri.com/forum/just-pick...16-emg-ts.html

April 27, 2007
I love them. I dumped a pair of BL's for these. I love the Lawrence pickups too but I have EMG's in all my guitars now and it is hard to switch to a passive pickup mid gig. One thing I do notice that the EMG's seem to benefit from a bit of compression. I mean like when you turn the compressor on and leave the sustain at the lowest possible setting. I have the David Gilmore setup in my strat,and I can get all sorts of great tones. As a matter of fact I can get a descent tele tone out of the SA bridge pickup. I have an 85 in the bridge of my Prs and a 60 in the neck. It is odd when I think about it. In the 80's when EMG's were all the rage,I hated them. I always wanted that more vintage tone, but now I love EMG's,except for the 81. I think that is the pickup that gave EMG's the reputation of being sterile. I also think the 85 is way too bassy in the neck. The whole Zack Wilde setup puzzles me, but having said that. I really kind of dig his tone. I also believe that EMG's sound very good but feel different than most other pickups. I think this is also what a lot of folks are talking about when they say they are sterile. The are just a different animal. I have never heard EMG's sound bad when someone else is playing them, so I think it is less of a sound issue and more of a feel issue. Maybe Maestrovert will chime in on this discussion. He loves the T set and is the reason I gave mine a second chance.

[refin]

Bill Lawrence was making dead quiet (and great sounding) pickups way before anyone else---kudos to he and Becky for continuing a great tonal heritage,and affordable at that.

[Joe Harris]

Would we be wanting to get a refund on the perfectly working " I love the Lawrence 280s " in order to invest the $$$ in a new set of EMG's ??

[jimfog]

I dunno.....going back and digging up a guys past comments to discredit him.......that's a little creepy.

We ALL go through phases with gear, and discover new things the more we use them.

Either way, even if he is being a little hypocritical, I find it a little off-putting the way the Lawrences seem to deal with even mild criticism of their pickups. You can't please everyone..........

- Jim

[editorjuno]

Originally Posted by jimfog

I dunno.....going back and digging up a guys past comments to discredit him.......that's a little creepy.

We ALL go through phases with gear, and discover new things the more we use them.

Either way, even if he is being a little hypocritical, I find it a little off-putting the way the Lawrences seem to deal with even mild criticism of their pickups. You can't please everyone..........

Jim, you've missed the point -- "criticism of their (or anyone else's) pickups" is par for the course and to be expected because, as you wrote, "You can't please everyone........." It's Clucker, essentially calling Bill and Becky liars, who's made this thread "creepy," especially given what he previously posted here about their products.

[genny]

becky doesn't mess around !!!!!

(if her name is really becky lawrence)


maybe this "clucker" fellow is tallking about a different bill lawrence (the other bill lawrence)

[Ray G]

Originally Posted by jimfog

I dunno.....going back and digging up a guys past comments to discredit him.......that's a little creepy.

We ALL go through phases with gear, and discover new things the more we use them.

Either way, even if he is being a little hypocritical, I find it a little off-putting the way the Lawrences seem to deal with even mild criticism of their pickups. You can't please everyone..........

- Jim

I don't think it's a bad thing, they have a right to stick up for themselves like anyone else. YRMV

[proffett]

I am a new member here, but I've been 'lurking' for some time, and I must say there is a lot of good stuff here. I just picked up another tele after about 17 years of not having one, and have been looking for ways to improve it.
I have to say I was considering BL's, but now I am concerned by some of the things I've seen in this thread.
First of all, Clucker has a valid concern, to a point... if the pickups he purchased were advertised as noiseless, but the manufacturer (any manufacturer, not just a small specialty company) admittedly knows that there MAY be an issue with compatibility due to a ferrous bridge, or whatever else, then they have an obligation to warn customers of this. Not just with a piece of paper in the box but right out front where it can help him to make a decision.
When I buy a guitar, be it a strat, tele, jazz bass, or any other single coil design, I EXPECT 60c hum. There's the diference. It is a commonlly known fact that stock single coils hum.
And for the record, Clucker did say that he liked the sound of the pickups. He never said he didnt. He also said that Becky had been nothing but helpful up until that point.
A lie by ommision is still a lie, even if it is unintentional. So in a sense, he is right.
I am very concerned about the last post by Becky, listing Clucker's posts concerning his BL's. That shows me very poor customer relations and business sense.
Even if Clucker was completely in the wrong, which I am not convinced of at all, for a business owner to post something like that to discredit a customer is unethical and poorly thought out to say the least.
In fact, if she does not have the common courtesy and decency to go back and edit that post out, I for one will not buy from her. I know they have plenty of happy customers, and they do make a great product overall, but that post to me just says alot about their ethics. One or two lost customers may not affect their bottom line at all, but keep in mind that word of mouth is a powerful thing... I build, repair and modify guitars for alot of people at work, at church, and other places. I will not be recommending BL's at this time, even though they are good pickups and affordable.

This is only my humble opinion. I'm sure that there are plenty of folks out there who disagree.
But I am looking into EMG's for this tele.

D

[boneyguy]

Originally Posted by jimfog

.........Either way, even if he is being a little hypocritical, I find it a little off-putting the way the Lawrences seem to deal with even mild criticism of their pickups. You can't please everyone..........

- Jim

I don't think the Lawrences are being asked to respond to the quality of their product. Their product quality is firmly established as a matter of fact. They are having to responding to an attack on their character which in my experience is beyond reproach.

It always sucks when you spend money on something and it doesn't turn out the way you had hoped. That's a drag. But to leap from that to strongly implying someone is a liar is a stretch, especially when someone like the Lawrences have a very good and very public reputation. My experience with both their products and their service was nothing short of spectacular. This seems to be the experience of most people by far.

Perhaps more information on their site would be appropriate concerning this matter but to suggest it is intentional deception is outrageous I believe.

[StuH]

Regardless of any discussion on this particular thread I'm still largely considering these pickups for my next project.
Too many positive references on other threads by players whos tone I admire and very very few complaints about dissatisfaction. Seems to me any problems that may exist can be solved and are too uncommon to mention as a caveat.

[Ray G]

Originally Posted by proffett

but keep in mind that word of mouth is a powerful thing... I build, repair and modify guitars for alot of people at work, at church, and other places. I will not be recommending BL's at this time, even though they are good pickups and affordable.

This is only my humble opinion. I'm sure that there are plenty of folks out there who disagree.
But I am looking into EMG's for this tele.
D

"but keep in mind that word of mouth is a powerful thing" ... and that is exactly why Becky has the right to and should defend Bill and herself... being called a liar is cetainly not pleasant

[11 Gauge]

I also have no problems with a vendor defending themselves, but what I read above comes across like some sort of character assassination in a courtroom.

I don't think it's creepy, I think that it's just plain unnecessary.

And despite who is right and who is wrong, I think that the time that Becky spent putting together what looks like the electronic equivalent of the Spanish Inquisition, she could have worked on supplemental product info for the website, printables, etc., such as, use a brass or aluminum bridgeplate with these pickups.

I, too, have been considering some Lawrence pickups for awhile myself (most likely the Keystones), but I don't think I want to buy anything from them now.

This reminds me of occaisional negative posts from Scott at Harmonic Design (typically aimed at people like me, who he would typically sarcastically try to set straight ). I don't know if it's the reason he stopped posting here, but it certainly can't help business, even if the vendor is 100% right.

There are just too many pickup vendors for any of them to show their teeth.

[Ray G]

Spanish Inuisition? nah. More a matter of pointing out fickleness.

[kp8]

Originally Posted by Becky Lawrence

We do include a sheet with the pickups explaining what I basically posted before plus more.

I'll say it again since it bears repeating:

It would seem to me that getting all this information in the box with the pickup is too late. This is information the buyer need before making his or her decision.

Is this information available to the public to help them understand and decide before they make a purchase?

if not .... then clucker has a pretty solid case if you ask me.

-kp8--

[proffett]

Originally Posted by Ray G

"but keep in mind that word of mouth is a powerful thing" ... and that is exactly why Becky has the right to and should defend Bill and herself... being called a liar is cetainly not pleasant

Not denying they have the right to defend, but their methods were not the best choice. Being called a liar in not pleasant, but neither is being subject to the kind of thing Becky just did. Two wrongs don't make a right.
And as I said before, an act of omission can still be considered a lie. They new there was an issue and didn't put up any disclaimer to that fact.
Thats all.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...m=220115947288
Just thought I'd throw that out there...

[petebradt]

[quote=Becky Lawrence;826452]

{snip gratuitous vindictiveness}

Vendors don't like having their shortcomings advertised, and some of them can be very vindictive.

I wasn't ever going to recommend anything the Lawrences make because I have no experience with it, but this puts them in with another vendor I'll never do business with.

I do agree, the caveats Mrs. Lawrence and others have detailed in this thread with regard to bridge plates should be in their promotional literature.

Perhaps the reverence will be toned down a bit as a result of this thread. Reverence toward a manufacturer, ANY manufacturer, IMO, is misplaced. It's business. Not religion.