Crackling problem with Fender/Fishman Power Bridge

[Rich Rice]

It seems like the piezos are loading up somehow.. if I don't use them for a while, they crackle and pop for the first few notes I play, then sound great. I can't think of another way to describe the symptom. I sure would like to figure out how to make that problem go away. I'm using them in a Fender Deluxe Series Nashville Power Tele with the onboard preamp. Anybody else have this problem? I just bought the guitar, (used, it's a 2000 model) so don't know how long this has been going on, but it is quite frustrating. I love the sound, and bought the guitar because of the bridge. I just don't know if there is a mod that can help this problem (like a cap to ground? Or ???) It's problem free most of the time, but if I let the guitar stand unplayed for 5 minutes, then turn up the piezos, the first few notes are riddled with a crackling noise, then it works properly. Weird. Any of you folks have suggestions? Thanks!
Rich Rice

[Rusty]

i played in a band with a singer once upon a time who used a tele like that for rhythm stuff. she had to get rid of the guitar because the crackling had no real pattern to it...couldn't really predict when it would do it or when it would be fine :(

every known repair person in the state looked at it and could not figure it out. she sold it on ebay and got another one.

you bought it used? it's not sunburst with a rosewood fingerboard is it??? :)

[Rich Rice]

No, it's Candy Apple Red. :D I hope there's a sharpie on here who might have an idea, as I really like the guitar. As soon as it got home I replaced the neck, tuners, and all three pickups with known parts from a couple of my favorite guitars. Then my son added a high pass filter, as the piezo pickups seemed to throw subsonic spikes to the amp when I started digging in or thumping on the bridge. I could see/hear my speakers jumping to maximum excursion, and was afraid they would blow. We figured the filter might actually solve the crackling problem, but the crackle remains. :(

[sidneystreet]

That particular bridge piezo unit has shown problems with reliability. I have seen at least 6 used ones all with that same problem, or worse with a totally dead piezo. You could get rid of it while it still works, or keep it as a standard pickup tele.

[Rich Rice]

I guess I'm more stubborn than most... The last thing in the world that I need is another Tele I lost count of how many I already have, and continue to build them every day. I wonder if the problem is in the piezos or the preamp. I further wonder if there are replacement parts available, and if it's worth the hassle/expense. I'd take a bath on this one, as I would be compelled to disclose the problem, this is only the third day I've had it, and I rebuilt the entire thing (except the piezo portion). I gigged it last Thursday night, and liked everything else about it, plus tore up two fantastic guitars in order to have the neck, pickup, and switching configuration just how it needs to be. I installed my favorite AP maple neck, (that came in lightly flamed maple as a fluke), I got rid of the stock pickups, (which are ok.. but not what I prefer)- and installed a Fralin in the bridge, SD quarter pounder for strat in the middle, and a early 70's Gibson Mini bucker in the neck position. the switching goes
1) bridge
2) bridge & neck parallel
3) neck
4) neck & middle parallel
5) middle
Plus dial in the piezo, and a variable master hi pass filter.
Needless to say, it would be easier to fix the piezo than to try to get this thing back to stock and sell it for a loss... Plus the most important thing... I love the color

[Jimi_is_God]

Rich,

I have a Fishman Powerbridge Wilkinson model in a Strat I made. It works great. Never had a problem with crackling. I didn’t use the Powerchip pot / preamp as I didn’t want the batteries in the guitar. Also it’s best if you use a separate amp or the PA with monitors for the “acoustic” sound. Leave the magnetic pups to go separately to your guitar amp. The Powerchip of course can blend the two sounds together but I think that vastly compromises both sounds. The Powerbridge really need a horn or tweeter to make it shine.

Sounds to me that its the preamp that is causing you problems anyway otherwise the crackling would be present all the time. It’s not needed as the Powerbridge can run passively. Just hook the two separate hot pickup leads to the stereo output jack directly (mine came with one) this will certainly isolate where your problem is coming from.

I use an Ernie Ball passive stereo volume pedal as a breakout box to go to the 2 amps with foot control of the volumes. Most of the time I take the piezo signal to a DI box, then to the mixing board and tweak from there.

When I am not using the piezo’s I just use a regular mono guitar cable and go straight to a guitar amp with no problem and no batteries draining and failing.

Though I haven’t heard it, Fishman makes there own stereo volume pedal with a built in preamp designed especially for the piezo’s called the Powerblend. I wouldn’t use a high pass filter built in the guitar.

[Wild Rice Chris]

Originally Posted by Jimi_is_God

I wouldn’t use a high pass filter built in the guitar.

Why not?

[Jimi_is_God]

My opinion is that the EQ of the piezo’s is best done outside the guitar. You might come across different recording and or live situations where you do not want to have a preset roll off.

If you have separate amps for the mag and acc. pups then besides having a glorious stereo spread you can have an amp for the piezo’s that can handle the extended bass response they produce, like a keyboard or bass amp that has a 15” woofer, ported cab etc.

I use a compressor/limiter on the piezo’s to handle the low end thumping that can occur when you hit the bridge. It can be tricky when you have it step up with a floating tremolo but with care it works.

My typical EQ is to roll off and suck out some of the upper mids to get rid of the piezo’s inherent quackiness. Putting the piezo’s through a typical guitar amp with only 10" or 12” speakers which are contoured to enhance the mids only compounds the problem for me.

[Wild Rice Chris]

OK, that makes sense.

The high-pass I installed in his guitar is on a knob (variable), and the amp is a SF Vibrosonic Reverb with an EV 15".

I think that what Rich is going for here is more of the added piezo tone, rather than faking an acoustic. He used the guitar at a leukemia benefit we played last Thursday, and the piezos added a cool element to certain tunes (like Can't You See).

[Jimi_is_God]

Since the SF Vibrosonic Reverb / EV 15" doesn’t have a horn or tweeter, then I think Rich is losing out on a lot of the high end sparkle which really helps to make the acoustic illusion. Are both pup systems going to only 1 amp? When I engage the piezos I also use it in conjunction with my mag sound as well (2 separate amps and or tracks). The mags add body to the tone. With the extended lows and highs of the piezos it makes a nice sandwich. There are also a lot of newer amps designed for acc guitar and these always have high frequency speakers beside the woofer, which tells you something.

But just to isolate the problem he is having with crackling it is easy to bypass the preamp to trouble shoot where the noise is coming from.

With a preamp / vol knob and a high pass filter the Tele controls must be getting a little crowded no? On my guitar I like to keep it traditional looking as well as having that extra room for more mag tonal options.

[Wild Rice Chris]

He is not using a tweeter, and doesn't miss it. We've tried the piezo through cabs with tweeters (Acoustic Image Contra, Bag End and PA), and it does help with the illusion of acoustic, but that is not what he's looking to achieve with the piezos.

I haven't tried bypassing the preamp, as he'd spoken with Fishman and ordered a new Powerchip before I had the chance. I plan on running the piezo straight out into an external preamp (I have a Fishman/Parker and a K&K) then to an amp.

The control plate is crowded. Where the volume normally goes is a dual-concentric pot with volume on top and tone beneath. For the mags only. Normal tone hole has a volume for the piezo. In between is the knob for the high-pass filter (which is based on the one used in G&Ls (I swiped basic component values out of my L-1000 bass))

What we're trying to achieve here is maximum versatility onboard. So that means no external preamps or amps or lines to the PA.

Thanks for your suggestions.

[Rich Rice]

OK. I thought it would be the chip, but a week and $56 later- SOS. Upon close observation, it seems that 3 of the strings are affected, and 3 are fine. Now, I don't know if there is anything that can be done about it, short of replacing the whole bridge. Boy, this seller is really getting me pissed... no replies to e-mails. I'll wait and see what Fishman has to say about the whole repair/replace issue. In the meantime, I guess the seller got one over on me. I may be forced to file a complaint with ebay. :evil: :evil: :evil:

[sidneystreet]

Sorry to hear that. I was really pulling for you.

I had a bad feeling that you weren't going to solve this problem. Like I said earlier, I have seen several of these used, and none of them had properly working piezos. That bridge piece is bad news.

You have turned it into a great guitar with all your mods, so either get a "completely" different bridge piezo unit, or use it as a standard tele.

[Rich Rice]

Originally Posted by sidneystreet

You have turned it into a great guitar with all your mods, so either get a "completely" different bridge piezo unit, or use it as a standard tele.

Well, the only reason I bought it was to have the quasi acoustic sound onboard. I'm not sure of the exact count, but I currently own around 20 great Teles. I built this one up to use as my #1 gigging guitar, but right about now I'm ready to put it out with the trash...
Have you had any experience with the Fishman VT bridge? http://www.fishman.com/products/details.asp?id=65 It looks like it might be a direct replacement. I wrote to Fishman again this afternoon, but won't hear anything from them until Monday. I wonder if it is better than the Fender/Fishman unit... The rep at Fishman seemed like a decent guy, but I don't think he would do much for me since the unit is 5 years old. The following is a direct excerpt from his e-mail:

"The Powerchip has been a relatively trouble free product for many years
now, both as an aftermarket product and an major OEM item for Fender,
Parker and many others. When thousands of pieces of any product is
produced, it is logical to have one fail every now and then. It has
actually been a very dependable product. The Powerchip is not an
expensive enough product to warrant removing it and shipping it here for
repair. It is less expensive to just replace it. I could sell you one
for $49.48 plus shipping. I would just need a name, address, phone
number and a Visa or MC to send it out to you. Let me know if you want
one, I'll be happy to take care of it.

BTW, a word of advice, don't believe everything you read on user
forums....6 bad Powerchips from one user? Doubtful.....
There are a lot of unqualified people out there hiding behind the guise
of being a so-called internet expert.
Also, I know you already said it's not your style, but don't you think
selling something on eBay that you know to be defective is a bit slimy?
I would have called that person to task on the forum and not really
taken her seriously after that."
There you have it... reminds me of my insurance agent, who agrees with me that the rates are exhorbitant, then raises them...
I may have access to a different brand altogether, but need to research it further to see if it is feasible to convert to a different manufacturer's product, electronic compatibility of the Powerchip (now that I own 2 of them) and so forth. Maybe Bartolini or the Ghost saddles? I'm floundering here, and not too #$%^&' happy about the whole mess...
:evil:

[Jimi_is_God]

Rich,

I can’t understand why it would work fine while your playing and then when you stop and pick it up again have problems? If it the Piezo’s, and had a loose connection, I would think the problem would be more intermittent while you play?

Have you tried bypassing the Powerchip yet, just to make sure?

I had some string brakeage problems at first with my bridge and Fishman were really good about fixing it, no charge.

I would call and ask to speak to the head honcho in the tech department. His name is Joe.
Nice guy and knows his stuff. It has been my experience that Fishman stand behind their products even when out of warranty. Joe might make you a fair deal to swap it out at cost or better.

Doesn’t cost anything but a dime to ask. Good luck, and don’t give up. The added tones are worth it.

[Rich Rice]

Hi J-I-G
I've been talking with Joe. He's the one who replied to my inquiry. We'll see what he comes up with on Monday... I think I can get Bartolini and L.R.Baggs stuff at cost, as I'm a builder and dealer for a couple of well known parts houses. I just don't know if everything will work together properly, impedances and so forth. If Joe can help me out, I'll be grateful. If it comes down to dealing with Fender directly, I may be able to get it for a fair price through one of my suppliers. I know Fender will charge full retail, at which point I could have purchased a brand new guitar. Either way, the situation is not pretty. I put the guitar on a stand in my living room, facing the corner...

[Jimi_is_God]

Well Joe is the man, and from my experience he doesn’t like a un-happy customer.

The curiosity is killing me Rich. Have you tried bypassing the preamp and wiring the Piezo directly to the output jack? Go to any outboard DI or preamp and see where the problem lies.

FYI - A while ago I spoke to a tech at Tom Anderson Guitars. At first they were using the L.R.Baggs X-Bridge piezo. A few years later they switched to Fishman Bridge’s. I asked him why and he said “They just sound better”.

P.S. Don’t keep the Tele in the corner too long or you might hurt his or her feelings.

[Rich Rice]

We should have bypassed the preamp, but in my haste to resolve the problem I ordered the preamp before testing the saddles. They appeared to be acting up at random, which led me to think it was the preamp. In retrospect, I should have been more thorough in my troubleshooting. I'm not overly concerned with having an extra preamp, as I already have a home for it. My focus has now shifted to the problem of locating proper replacement saddles, or a new bridge. I'm somewhat concerned with the reliability of the Fishman saddles, but wonder if there are better grades available as I don't intend to abandon the project any time soon. My intent was to build a guitar with many tonal variations onboard, and I want to blend some of the acoustic properties into my magnetic signal on occasion. I will take it a bit more slowly now, as our gigs have slowed down and I have no real pressure to finish the guitar. I simply want it to operate properly, and to be reliable... seems so simple, really :)

[Jean-Baptiste]

If it's any help Rich, my comments on the *other* powerchip thread were based on stuff I'd read at the Parker forum. Can't remember specifics, but more than one poster there complained about problems specific to the saddles. I get the impression that these are the first (and possibly only) components to go bad in the Fishman system.

Some were able to get replacements under warantee, while others were charged for the parts. One poster even said he got some free ones the first time around but had to pay for the second (!!!) batch. It was quite a while ago that I read this and unfortunately I can't remember whether they were getting the saddles direct from Fishman, or from Parker Guitars.

This is a great sounding pickup system, but I think piezo crystals themselves are inherently fragile. I used to experiment with the guts of Radio Shack buzzers taped to acoustic guitars. If you cracked 'em removing the plastic casing, they wouldn't work. Pretty hit & miss, but the buzzers were under 2 bucks a pop at the time.

If you persevere, I'm sure you'll be able to solve this problem.

Good luck,
Jean

[Jimi_is_God]

Rich,

Have you tried the old fashioned method of just giving it a good whack with your fist? Sometimes when all else fails…….Just kidding.

I’ve had my bridge 10 years on a floating tremolo with much whammy abuse. Even though it gets moved around, so far no worry’s.

I believe there were two versions of the Tele bridge. The first had saddles that looked like Wilkinson’s – that look like these

http://www.fishman.com/products/details.asp?id=64

And the newer model that Fishman says have been improved and sound better, that look like –

http://www.fishman.com/products/details.asp?id=65

Which do you have?