Boutique pickups and changes of heart about 'tone'

[JRevel]

This is more of a rant than anything else, having spent the day swapping pups in and out of guitars.

I had a bad rehearsal the other night. I mean, it was fine, but I had built a new tele that, at the house, sounded amazing. At practice it still sounded good, but was too loud, too ice picky, and just...off.

I wanted a special tele and slurged on boutique pups. A Lollar Special T in the bridge and a Rio Grande Muy Grande in the neck. Now I really can't complain about the Muy Grande. It's just an amazing pickup. No matter what guitar it went into, it sounded amazing. But I'll get back to that.

The Special T, too, sounds incredible. But I had a stock Fender bridge pup lying around, a GFS Lil Puncher 15k, a mystery bridge pup, a GFS Fat Body neck pup, and an artec rails neck pup, and a day to kill. So I spent it swapping.

With the exception of the artec rails, they're all good pickups. They all sounds different. They all fit different bills. I played the T in my favorite tele, and then played the Lil Puncher. The Puncher won, easily. I know it sounds like madness, and maybe it is, but the Puncher won.

Tone is the equivalent of dragon chasing to the H junkie. No matter what pup, I could make a guitar sound like I sound. Sure there were differences. But...$100 or $200 dollar a pickup difference. Naw.

That GFS Fatbody neck pup isn't a Rio Grande, and doesn't sound like a Rio Grande, but if I heard that thing being played well from the audience, I'd be up all night wondering what boutique pickup the player used to get the cool as, unique as could be, sound out of the neck of a tele!

My 2 cents, for what it's worth, after a long day of experiments.

[fender4life]

I agree. I don't find that more $+better pickup by any means. Pickups are magnets and wire and quality doesn't enter the equasion. A squier pickup may be better than a boutique if it matches the guitar better. Thats all it is....what p/u matches the particular guitar, and that can be a roll of the dice that has nothing to do with quality. It's whether the output and EQ curve are a great fit for that guitar, something that could be found at any price.

[Narcoleptigon]

Part of it could be that you prefer the sound if the 15k Lil' Puncher with your cable, while the others may benefit from a longer, or shorter cable. I've heard nothing but good things about those pickups, including a set I've tried myself. I haven't had a bad GFS pickup so far. Funny, I thought the Lil Punchers were just re-branded Arctic rails. Maybe Jay redesigned them, or they're a different wind count, or even a bad set?

Yeah, just goes to show you paying a lot more doesn't mean anything when it comes to pickups. Materials and wire don't have to be expensive to produce good results, but they should be specifically chosen based on how they all interact. There are some designers that do that at a mathematical level for precise phase accuracy and maximum efficiency. Certain winding methods also should be used to ensure consistency and retain the efficiency of the design goal.

Some designers have come up with good "formulas" based on trail and error. Consistency seems to be improving as modern CNC winders are employed, but some hand winders are good about not exceeding tension with a given wire. I think that gets dicey below 42AWG. Humans are only capable of so much sensitivity to tension.

[copperheadroad]

Originally Posted by JRevel

This is more of a rant than anything else, having spent the day swapping pups in and out of guitars.

I had a bad rehearsal the other night. I mean, it was fine, but I had built a new tele that, at the house, sounded amazing. At practice it still sounded good, but was too loud, too ice picky, and just...off.

I wanted a special tele and slurged on boutique pups. A Lollar Special T in the bridge and a Rio Grande Muy Grande in the neck. Now I really can't complain about the Muy Grande. It's just an amazing pickup. No matter what guitar it went into, it sounded amazing. But I'll get back to that.

The Special T, too, sounds incredible. But I had a stock Fender bridge pup lying around, a GFS Lil Puncher 15k, a mystery bridge pup, a GFS Fat Body neck pup, and an artec rails neck pup, and a day to kill. So I spent it swapping.

With the exception of the artec rails, they're all good pickups. They all sounds different. They all fit different bills. I played the T in my favorite tele, and then played the Lil Puncher. The Puncher won, easily. I know it sounds like madness, and maybe it is, but the Puncher won.

Tone is the equivalent of dragon chasing to the H junkie. No matter what pup, I could make a guitar sound like I sound. Sure there were differences. But...$100 or $200 dollar a pickup difference. Naw.

That GFS Fatbody neck pup isn't a Rio Grande, and doesn't sound like a Rio Grande, but if I heard that thing being played well from the audience, I'd be up all night wondering what boutique pickup the player used to get the cool as, unique as could be, sound out of the neck of a tele!

My 2 cents, for what it's worth, after a long day of experiments.

You are comparing Apples to Oranges
How can a hot blade style pickup end up in a shootout with a Lollar T ,Which has more of a traditional tone.The punchers wound that hot don't sound like a tele.
I had a set of punchers in a tele of mine & I could never get that tele tone untill I got replaced them .
Everybody has different taste & if you get your tone your looking for congrats....The quest for tone is long & winding path

[Telenator]

I tend to look at pickups very differently than most.

In my approach, I simply try to find the pickup set that best reveals what a guitar has to offer, regardless of what that sound may be. Each guitar has it's own potential and certain pickups will reveal that potential better than others.

I do not buy pickups with the intent of copping someone's sound because I know that the same pickups will sound different in every guitar I try them in.

Figure out what your guitar wants and then try accordingly.

That leaves me with potential.

[elelpe]

My #1 is now equipped with Artec Giovanni in the bridge and Wilkinson version of P-94. I'm very happy with this combo: my tele sounds great in any position and both pickups only cost me less than $40. I had Nocaster and some Duncans. Don't get me wrong. They sound awesome but I just couldn't justify the price after comparing them to cheaper pickups that make a great match with my tele as well. Since they have better resale value than the cheaper ones, I sold 'em all. I still keep my Keystones though: great sound, great price and great build.

[Teleterr]

Originally Posted by Telenator

I tend to look at pickups very differently than most.

In my approach, I simply try to find the pickup set that best reveals what a guitar has to offer, regardless of what that sound may be. Each guitar has it's own potential and certain pickups will reveal that potential better than others.

I do not buy pickups with the intent of copping someone's sound because I know that the same pickups will sound different in every guitar I try them in.

Figure out what your guitar wants and then try accordingly.

That leaves me with potential.

I agree. Every guitar has a p/up that matches its natural tone best. I've had guitars that ,once it was the rights p/ups, it was 1000% better. I spent big $ on a Voodoo Strat, thought "why did I waste all that money" then put in some CS'69s and it went from blah to fantastic.

[telegibson]

Originally Posted by Telenator

I tend to look at pickups very differently than most.

In my approach, I simply try to find the pickup set that best reveals what a guitar has to offer, regardless of what that sound may be. Each guitar has it's own potential and certain pickups will reveal that potential better than others.

I do not buy pickups with the intent of copping someone's sound because I know that the same pickups will sound different in every guitar I try them in.

Figure out what your guitar wants and then try accordingly.

That leaves me with potential.

That's an interesting concept but, could you go over that in more details with some examples.
How can I figure out what my guitar wants? Just have to play it unplugged?

[surfoverb]

money almost never=tone.

[fezz parka]

What Bob said. A guitar will tell you what it wants.

[Telenator]

Originally Posted by telegibson

That's an interesting concept but, could you go over that in more details with some examples.
How can I figure out what my guitar wants? Just have to play it unplugged?

Rather than saying something like, "I want SRV tone," and buying a set of pickups that promise to deliver the mojo, I like to listen to my guitars to determine where I feel they might be lacking in sound.

Some of them sound bassy, while others sound bright. I will then focus on trying pickups who's tonal claims and attributes match what I'm looking to change about the guitar.

If my Tele is real bright, I might try going with a Nocaster bridge pickup because it's known for it's fuller midrange.

What I end up with is a great sounding guitar. It might not sound like the David Gilmore sound floating through my brain, but it will be a great sound just the same.

It's about drawing the best tonal potential from your guitar. Not matching someone else.

[Narcoleptigon]

That's a tough thing to determine. You'd have to know how to compensate for how it might sound electrically from the acoustic sound. At what listening point to the guitar do you make that judgment? You'd have to have a good bit of experience with trial and error, and make some educated guesses. I think the best thing is to use pickups that fit with resonant qualities of the guitar, rather than try to fix a guitar that is lacking. A guitar lacking in any good bass resonance will still lack that kind of full bodied elastic feel even with a bass resonant (brass baseplate?) pickup. A dull guitar will still have a dull attack and decay with a bright pickup. I wouldn't waste time on a guitar that doesn't sound good to begin with. It just won't ever feel right.

[spauldingrules]

What I think is that a lot of "tele" players here want a strat neck pickup and a bridge PAF, and just can't admit it to themselves, so they keep trying tele pickups until they get close!

[surfoverb]

Originally Posted by spauldingrules

What I think is that a lot of "tele" players here want a strat neck pickup and a bridge PAF, and just can't admit it to themselves, so they keep trying tele pickups until they get close!

haha ..not a bad theory.

[JRevel]

Originally Posted by spauldingrules

What I think is that a lot of "tele" players here want a strat neck pickup and a bridge PAF, and just can't admit it to themselves, so they keep trying tele pickups until they get close!

Haha, yeah, interesting.

[fender4life]

Originally Posted by spauldingrules

What I think is that a lot of "tele" players here want a strat neck pickup and a bridge PAF, and just can't admit it to themselves, so they keep trying tele pickups until they get close!

I agree. I have had several teles but i could never get really happy with the bridge p/u no matter what i put there till i tried a HB. Now i'm really digging my '72 thinline RI with WRHB's in it far more than any tele i've had with a single coil there. I could get happy with a SC in a tele neck position, but i just cannot get fully happy with any SC bridge. theres always something thats not quite right for me. May be that bridge plate and the what it does to SC pickup, even when non ferrous.

[Telenator]

Originally Posted by Narcoleptigon

That's a tough thing to determine. You'd have to know how to compensate for how it might sound electrically from the acoustic sound.

This simply is not true in my experience. The acoustic sound of an electric guitar means absolutely nothing to me. I don't doubt your experience or your results it just hasn't been the case where my guitars are concerned. Some of the most acoustically resonant guitars I've owned, have been the biggest duds when plugged in. And no set of pickups could save them.

[fender4life]

Originally Posted by Telenator

This simply is not true in my experience. The acoustic sound of an electric guitar means absolutely nothing to me.

+1

[Narcoleptigon]

Originally Posted by Telenator

This simply is not true in my experience. The acoustic sound of an electric guitar means absolutely nothing to me. I don't doubt your experience or your results it just hasn't been the case where my guitars are concerned. Some of the most acoustically resonant guitars I've owned, have been the biggest duds when plugged in. And no set of pickups could save them.

That's essentially what I'm saying. I don't think you can really tell from the acoustic sound. I've had luck replacing pickups, but only after hearing the guitars with it's original pickups as a reference, and knowing what those pickups basically sound like. A full sweet and articulate guitar may work with many types of pickups. I don't think you'd know until you try a particular set.

[JRevel]

The exception to this "rather have an hb in the bridge" is, of course, a P90.