Bridge pickup for light pine body

[thesjkexperienc]

I am building a pine Tele. The body is 3.25 pounds and I will be using a maple neck .95 - .95 V shape, but I am not totally decided on maple or rosewood. It will have stainless steel frets.

I currently have an STelly neck and will be using Glendale bridge, saddle and other hardware.

Do you think a Don Mare tapped ZepOtone would be a good match in the bridge? I do not have any experience with pine guitars as I usually like swamp ash. I also do not know if there will be much difference between the two taps.

I usually play roots to classic rock/blues using 20 - 30 Watt amps. I tend to like punchy and a more open sound at the bridge.

there is an adventure over every hill -- Pooh

[Rob DiStefano]

lightweight body woody typically has good resonance. this can matter for low volume playing with little outboard modulation. other than that, the body wood doesn't much matter. however, the sound of you and your electric guitar emanates from your brain, fingers, the pickup(s), the pickup passive electronic circuit, the amalgam of the guitar, the guitar cable, modulation (if any), the amp and all its components.

so, in terms of single coil pickups, the landscape is essentially three fold - overly bright/glassy/ice picky, bright but with underlying and noticeable midrange, treble oriented but with a goodly chunk of midrange. most of this sonic spectrum will be tempered by your brain and fingers, and not the guitar wood or bridge saddles or string gauge or whatever other components are being hyped of late. all bets are off if yer knee deep in outboard fx. :)

[Greg.Coal]

I don't have the "microcoil" pickups from Bill Lawrence, but the descriptions about them are somewhat out of the ordinary. Even allowing for Rob's broad and accurate summary of pickups and the narrow range where pickup+body wood matters (and I agree), maybe the microcoil is the one pickup that will transmit a different sound based on the body wood.

And, they have adjustable pole pieces.

Greg

[Rob DiStefano]

Originally Posted by Greg.Coal

I don't have the "microcoil" pickups from Bill Lawrence, but the descriptions about them are somewhat out of the ordinary. Even allowing for Rob's broad and accurate summary of pickups and the narrow range where pickup+body wood matters (and I agree), maybe the microcoil is the one pickup that will transmit a different sound based on the body wood.

And, they have adjustable pole pieces.

Greg

there's a huge amount of effort and time involved (and some - or a lotta - dollar$, too), but anyone who does the correct apples to apples lab testing with regards to guitar components will be hard pressed to find that the wood (body, neck, fingerboard) matters at normal playing volumes without modulation. for the most part, with electric guitars played beyond talk volumes, it's still you, the pups, electronics, amp. at very low bedroom volumes, the wood can absolutely matter, sometimes but not always.

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[Narcoleptigon]

Rob, I'm not sure exactly what you're saying about modulation with regards to revealing wood tone, but it sounds intriguing.

Keep in mind that the East Indian Rosewood used in modern guitar fretboards was not originally chosen for tone, but as a replacement for the depleting Brazilian Rosewood supplies. Apparently, the East Indian variety is a very oily wood compared to Brazilian, and can even require special gluing methods to stay joined in some cases. I don't know the details on that. Particularly with the Pine body, you are likely to get a fairly dark guitar, but you never know. It may be a pretty subtle difference, and show up more in the initial attack characteristic, which will influence the "feel" more than the obvious tonal attributes. My instinct would be to go for maple, ebony, Pau Ferro or some artificial composite fingerboard. Personally, I find neck joint integrity to be a more significant tonal factor.

Bill Lawrence generally designs pickups with the goal of "neutrality" in mind. i.e. creating the clearest, most sensitive pickups possible to let the sound of the guitar through. The low wind count, low Q factor MicroCoils are the prime example of that in his line. As well, his parallel wired "Q-Filter" functions as a variable tap for any pickup. Either way, I'd choose pickups for a lightweight guitar that aren't too mid heavy. Typical "Fat" sounding pickups might sound muddy or dull with the reduced highs and added mid/bass resonances of the Pine body, but that's just my intuition -- something to consider. As Rob touched on, it's about what you like and want from the guitar. Of course, the cable capacitance is a crucial part of the equation.

[Rob DiStefano]

Originally Posted by Narcoleptigon

Rob, I'm not sure exactly what you're saying about modulation with regards to revealing wood tone, but it sounds intriguing.

modulation = outboard effects. the more used, the more the initial tone of the guitar (in terms of an electric guitar) is compromised and obfuscated.

Keep in mind that the East Indian Rosewood used in modern guitar fretboards was not originally chosen for tone, but as a replacement for the depleting Brazilian Rosewood supplies. Apparently, the East Indian variety is a very oily wood compared to Brazilian, and can even require special gluing methods to stay joined in some cases. I don't know the details on that. Particularly with the Pine body, you are likely to get a fairly dark guitar, but you never know. It may be a pretty subtle difference, and show up more in the initial attack characteristic, which will influence the "feel" more than the obvious tonal attributes. My instinct would be to go for maple, ebony, Pau Ferro or some artificial composite fingerboard. Personally, I find neck joint integrity to be a more significant tonal factor.

none of what you've just said about wood and joinery and tone matters for 99% of the world's electric guitarists playing at gigging/recording volumes. maybe that could be 100%. in a quiet living room setting, with little or no modulation, a broad shift in guitar body woods (in terms of wood density) can typically be clearly heard. it's all about rensonant vibrations. this is also why i build white and sugar pine cabs for all the tube amp circuits i also create.

Bill Lawrence generally designs pickups with the goal of "neutrality" in mind. i.e. creating the clearest, most sensitive pickups possible to let the sound of the guitar through. The low wind count, low Q factor MicroCoils are the prime example of that in his line. As well, his parallel wired "Q-Filter" functions as a variable tap for any pickup. Either way, I'd choose pickups for a lightweight guitar that aren't too mid heavy. Typical "Fat" sounding pickups might sound muddy or dull with the reduced highs and added mid/bass resonances of the Pine body, but that's just my intuition -- something to consider. As Rob touched on, it's about what you like and want from the guitar. Of course, the cable capacitance is a crucial part of the equation.

your subjective statements are obviously yours. i come from another direction that *requires* uber lightweight electric guitars with "fat" toned pasive single coil pickups. these guitars have a singing voice without the need for extensive modulation. this is typically achieved via an increased coil wire turn count, which boosts the midrange - and the sonic difference (to my subjective ears) is what makes for a very expressive pickup and guitar, specifically at low volumes.

to each their own. with music, there is no right or wrong, only what best lights yer personal fires.

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[Teleterr]

Well as someone who actually hears difference in wood, fingerboard and body that matters alot, I will have to agree that there aren't really any rules for matching p/ups to woods. From having lots of combos, I'd say pretty much any p/up can go in any wood neck/body w good or bad results depending on that guitar. Rob raises an interesting point about volume. I play at levels where my ears don't ring and hear lots of wood difference. Maybe if you re standing in front of 4 300 Watt cranked Marshalls wood wouldn't matter that much.

[Rob DiStefano]

Originally Posted by Teleterr

.... Maybe if you re standing in front of 4 300 Watt cranked Marshalls wood wouldn't matter that much.

no, it only takes a dimed champ to make the woodiness disappear.

[Teleterr]

Well, that I'll disagree w. Sometimes I play in the garage w my Champ on 10 using a 20db gain nuvistor preamp.( 8056, 12V on the plate adjustable bias from -.5 to 6 V ) Maple vs Rosewood boards, Ash vs Mahogany bodies still sounds different to me. Obviously in the subjective realm.

[Narcoleptigon]

Thanks for clearing up the modulation thing, Rob. I thought you specifically meant modulation type effects, like chorus, tremolo, etc.

On your second point: Granted that in a loud stage setting these subtleties will be lost, but it couldn't hurt to get things closer to what you want for direct recording purposes. We've discussed the contribution of guitar resonance and how much is actually registered through the pickup before. I agree that it's probably pretty subtle. In the case of the East Indian Rosewood fretboards, I think it's more about the damping qualities, than the resonance. Worth considering. Again, pretty subtle.

Lastly, come to think of it, there has been quite a tradition of mating fat sounding pickups with lightweight bodies. Read: Ibanez Basswood shredders. No hard and fast rules. I'd imagine the fatter pickups might have less "twang" factor, as is often the case? No doubt, you give up one thing for another.

[Rob DiStefano]

Originally Posted by Teleterr

Well, that I'll disagree w. Sometimes I play in the garage w my Champ on 10 using a 20db gain nuvistor preamp.( 8056, 12V on the plate adjustable bias from -.5 to 6 V ) Maple vs Rosewood boards, Ash vs Mahogany bodies still sounds different to me. Obviously in the subjective realm.

aside from the body wood, are the guitars *exactly* the same?

[Rob DiStefano]

Originally Posted by Narcoleptigon

Thanks for clearing up the modulation thing, Rob. I thought you specifically meant modulation type effects, like chorus, tremolo, etc.

On your second point: Granted that in a loud stage setting these subtleties will be lost, but it couldn't hurt to get things closer to what you want for direct recording purposes. We've discussed the contribution of guitar resonance and how much is actually registered through the pickup before. I agree that it's probably pretty subtle. In the case of the East Indian Rosewood fretboards, I think it's more about the damping qualities, than the resonance. Worth considering. Again, pretty subtle.

Lastly, come to think of it, there has been quite a tradition of mating fat sounding pickups with lightweight bodies. Read: Ibanez Basswood shredders. No hard and fast rules. I'd imagine the fatter pickups might have less "twang" factor, as is often the case? No doubt, you give up one thing for another.

way Way WAY too much overthinking. i can't see where music and tone can be blueprinted and cloned. if that were the case, someone would be making billions pumping out perfect guitars by the thousands daily. and in the long run, we don't want or need that silliness at all. it removes the need for creativity and genius.

remember, if it's an electric the "tone" thing will always start with you and end at the speaker. you, the player, have the greatest control over tone - that's a hard fact. as with single coil pups, i see very simple equations that once past the human aspect will help define the final tone.

this and other forums are drowning in topics that attempt to rationalize tone from a physical perspective. that isn't reality, nor should it be. maybe it's just folks with too much non-playing time on their hands ....

[Narcoleptigon]

Rob, I don't perceive what I've said as "over-thinking" anymore than the things you've said are, but I do perceive your saying so as being a judgment of my approach. I've been careful not to cast such judgments here.

I certainly don't mean to devalue the significance of the human element. Obviously, you don't want to have to alter your preferred playing styles to get the tone you want from your setup. The OP is asking about external elements. Personally, I don't feel comfortable deferring to the topic of playing technique unless it seems warranted.

Truth be told, we're probably all over-thinking this in lieu of creating. The more I do think about it, the more I appreciate that it's impossible to tell what a guitar/pickup/cable combo will sound like until you try it with your rig -- as the wise and experienced sales folk always told me, but I never quite believed. I'm just trying to clarify and help the OP narrow down his choices to get him in the ball park. I think we've all done that pretty well. That was my intention, anyway.

[Teleterr]

Originally Posted by Rob DiStefano

aside from the body wood, are the guitars *exactly* the same?

Well, with the necks/ bodies I mentioned before, you'd have to switch off necks etc. But heres an example that might have bearing. I'm always experimenting, so I took my 'Berger w a Maple body when I was changing its p/ups and put in a Duncan'59 like was in my Mahogany 'Berger. Both bridge position. Both had R-Trems and solid graphite necks w the wheres my highs? this sounds like plastic, Phenolic fingerboards. Big difference, much deeper tone on the Mahogany, seemed different harmonic wise too. That was thru my Champ w the tube pre. Tho more noticeable at 3 to 6-7 before compression gets heavy. I'm not thrilled w Maple as a body wood. I see why Steinberger used EMGs to disguise/overide the tone. But you brought up a good point about volume that I hadn't thought of and agree with. We just have different subjective volume points where the woods irrelevant.

[Rob DiStefano]

Originally Posted by Teleterr

Well, with the necks/ bodies I mentioned before, you'd have to switch off necks etc. But heres an example that might have bearing. I'm always experimenting, so I took my 'Berger w a Maple body when I was changing its p/ups and put in a Duncan'59 like was in my Mahogany 'Berger. Both bridge position. Both had R-Trems and solid graphite necks w the wheres my highs? this sounds like plastic, Phenolic fingerboards. Big difference, much deeper tone on the Mahogany, seemed different harmonic wise too. That was thru my Champ w the tube pre. Tho more noticeable at 3 to 6-7 before compression gets heavy. I'm not thrilled w Maple as a body wood. I see why Steinberger used EMGs to disguise/overide the tone. But you brought up a good point about volume that I hadn't thought of and agree with. We just have different subjective volume points where the woods irrelevant.

*everything* needs swapping out so that the difference between guitars is only the body wood. even that can have issues as there may be issues swapping out the hardware and doing a full assembly and setup. but that would be the only way to hear perceived body wood differences at low, moderate and high volumes ... with no modulation and obviously through the same amps/settings. assemble a dozen folks and do the blindfold tests - no one sees what's being played, only heard.

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[Rob DiStefano]

Originally Posted by Narcoleptigon

Rob, I don't perceive what I've said as "over-thinking" anymore than the things you've said are, but I do perceive your saying so as being a judgment of my approach. I've been careful not to cast such judgments here.

I certainly don't mean to devalue the significance of the human element. Obviously, you don't want to have to alter your preferred playing styles to get the tone you want from your setup. The OP is asking about external elements. Personally, I don't feel comfortable deferring to the topic of playing technique unless it seems warranted.

Truth be told, we're probably all over-thinking this in lieu of creating. The more I do think about it, the more I appreciate that it's impossible to tell what a guitar/pickup/cable combo will sound like until you try it with your rig -- as the wise and experienced sales folk always told me, but I never quite believed. I'm just trying to clarify and help the OP narrow down his choices to get him in the ball park. I think we've all done that pretty well. That was my intention, anyway.

i was in your shoes about 37 years ago. and looking back on those anal dayze, i was severly overthinking the business of "guitar tone", but i didn't know any better. trust me, it's not worth wasting time and money over. but, you may just hafta find that out for yerself and that, too, is ok. good luck.

[Narcoleptigon]

Originally Posted by Rob DiStefano

i was in your shoes about 37 years ago. and looking back on those anal dayze, i was severly overthinking the business of "guitar tone", but i didn't know any better. trust me, it's not worth wasting time and money over. but, you may just hafta find that out for yerself and that, too, is ok. good luck.

I've definitely spent untold hours thinking about this stuff. I've finally learned that there are too many variables with wood to really predict anything. That's why I have a few composite material guitars. Funny thing about my Parker Nitefly: as nice a "Strat" as it is, even the lighter weight Big Leaf Maple body seems to impart that sort of tight compressed sound that maple has. Probably be warmer if it were a little wider. Luckily, the neck adds the needed complex resonances.

I haven't spent a lot of money in my quest (maybe ~$1200 in the last 6 years), and I don't recommend spending a lot in the pursuit of a solid body guitar. There are even great sounding semi-hollows for under $500. Hagstrom has some interesting cheap guitars. They use composite FB's, and an Aluminum T-bar truss rod to maximize neck rigidity, which is really the weak link in the chain. I'd be curious to try one and see if it functions as predicted. At this point, I leave it up to the pros. I've learned some things to look for, but nothing trumps trying something with your rig and a good low capacitance cable. I can't stress that enough.

[Rob DiStefano]

my last, parting shot at this theme ...

i've worked with countless music artists for more than a few decades, and i'm the fretted instrument tech for one of the most respected recording studios in the states. i'd guess that about 95% of the guitarists i've worked with, more than some who are quite respected in the industry, don't think about "guitar tone" - they're just pull out their guitar or are handed a house guitar, they record with it, and they sound truly good. this is the essence of "making good music" - it starts with talent. none of us back inthe 50's or 60's thought about "guitar tone" (or biasing tube amps, for that matter ), we just played. and those who had that talent rose above the din.

it's not a bad or wasted thing to consider your guitar tone and its origins. it's worth investigating to some degree. but it shouldn't be ocd or some don quixote quest. make your crusade not about guitar tone, but about good note selection. enjoy the ride.

[Narcoleptigon]

I don't want to hijack the thread here, so I won't go any more off topic myself. Excellent point about about putting the music first, Rob. I'm actually not on a Quixotic tone quest. I'm finally happy with the tone of my guitars/rig, but I only settled on it in the last few years after learning a few key things about how to get it.

It's inspiring to pick up a guitar and just love the sound more each time you play it -- especially after decades of not being pleased with my previous setups. I'm actually not as picky as I come across, and I'm certainly not the most talented, or dedicated of players. Point here is to help the OP get what he wants. I don't think I could add any more to what I've already mentioned, but I think Rob probably could. He has some good deals on pickups as well. Good Luck with the Pine Tele my friend!

[SixShooter]

Originally Posted by Rob DiStefano

lightweight body woody typically has good resonance. this can matter for low volume playing with little outboard modulation. other than that, the body wood doesn't much matter. however, the sound of you and your electric guitar emanates from your brain, fingers, the pickup(s), the pickup passive electronic circuit, the amalgam of the guitar, the guitar cable, modulation (if any), the amp and all its components.

Rob, I am curious about your thoughts regarding bridges and there effect on the sound of a guitar. Do you hear differences between say 3 saddle Tele bridges, 6 saddle hardtail, tune -o -matics, etc?