Do you get what you pay for???

[cjfaro]

Originally Posted by Narcoleptigon

Yeah. I guess it's "wholly cra..." Anyway, just messin' with you on that.

Seriously, that diagram looks right, but for two things. Bravo! First, the tone pot poles should be facing the volume pot. Swap it's outside pole connections. Otherwise, the tone pot will work backwards. Second, I meant to try the 0.0047uf cap on the HoOP switch, not as the alternate tone cap. For the alt tone cap, I'd go for ~2.2nF. With an added average cable-C of ~300pF, that would give you a ~2.2kHz Rz for the L45S and ~2.4kHz for the L202TN. You could go + or - ~100pF with the cable-C without it making much difference. With both PUP's in parallel, you'll get ~3.3kHz Rz, but the highs cut down anyway, so it shouldn't be an issue. Smell me?

Some people prefer 0.022uF as a standard tone cap...Not me. You could try either, or something in between. Listen with the tone knob at 4 and 5 as prime references. Use whichever cap "moves" you more.

I was refering to the language of electronics...

Step 1:
Let's assume I have understood correctly your last comment and corrected the diagram accordingly.

Step 2.
For the cap at the switch, one explanation given to me by the highly articulate Emmett Brown (AKA Deaf Eddie) is the following:

That cap is ONLY there to choke the bass out of the neck pup in throws #4 and #5. I'd say, start with the .010uF, and see what you think. Play around with other values if you want to see what they will do. A BIGGER cap will make throw #4 warmer, but throw #5 will get weaker. A smaller cap will make throw #4 thinner, but throw #5 fatter. It's a balancing act/compromise between the two throws.
I will experiment to see what 0.01uF and 0.0047uF do to position 4.

Step 3:
The question is what value for the tone caps should I use?
Again, quoting Sir Brown (he should really be knighted for service rendered to people like me...):

Many vintage Fenders use a .047uf (MICROFARAD) tone cap.
The .0046uf cap has been used in the Eldred Mod and their specialty tone options.
In most cases, you'd need to have the tone near "0" to really hear it working, but the result (depending on your pickups) has been described as "jazz-box" or "woman-tone," and some players even hear a "cocked-wah" with it.

Back to your original idea, if you used a .010uf and a .020uf as you suggested, AND the caps that you happened to get were at the extremes of a +/- 20% value range (common QC range for caps), you might end up with a .012uf and a .014uf - you'd NEVER hear the difference!

There is still little variation between the 0.022 and 0.047, so maybe I should try with the 0.0047 and the 0.047 and modify to 0.047 and 0.022 if I don't like the sound...
That is, of course, if step 1 is true

[Narcoleptigon]

OK. I can't really go on with this much more. Your last diagram is almost right, but for two things: For some reason, the tone pot is not grounded. 4.7nF would be a great choice for the alt cap tone. A 1.6kHz Rz would be nice for a deep "singing" sort of lead tone, but the resulting Rz for the L200TN might sound a little dull. It was my other original suggestion. Your call. In any case, definitely try the 0.0047uf on the HOoP switch.

As I've explained several times, a given C (Capacitance) value will produce a particular Rz (Resonant frequency) depending on a PUP's inductance, which is measured in H (Henry). With two 250k Ohm pots, the Rz for the PUP's in your diagram will have a ~+3db peak. The Wilde L45S measures 2.0H, and the L200TN is 1.8H. Use the calculator on this page to find the Rz for the cap and cable-C values that I recommended, using the H value of each of those PUP's:
http://www.calculatoredge.com/new/resonance.htm

The type of cap doesn't matter, only the value. It's the same with resisters and coils -- only the value matters to the circuit. You can pretty easily find +/-10% value caps. Ceramic are just fine. Some other types can leak and change value.

However, the properties of the PUP materials affect tone, because they affect the magnetic field. The properties of the field itself also affect tone and response, but the materials in the other components don't. Only the measured value of the other components matter, including cable-C. Credentialed pros have explained it as such. Some tests have confirmed it, and it makes sense logically. I'm inclined to believe it.

[flyingbanana]

Originally Posted by SamBooka

I wouldnt say "you get what you pay for" but you get your moneys worth from Lollar.
You dont from Gibson. I would say for what I paid for my GFS pickups they were worth it.
Not the best but good bang for the buck

I would say that you could get D Allen pickups for what...less than half the cost of Lollars, and get more pickup value.

[Jason Lollar]

I would say that you could get D Allen pickups for what...less than half the cost of Lollars, and get more pickup value
thats not accurate at all. my P-90s are $200 a set, D allens list price is $224.95 a set and he sells them for $10.05 less per set than i sell mine for- what are you talking about?

[Rob DiStefano]

the tone is in the ear of the beholder.

far too often, the player obfuscates over "tone" whilst his/her listening audience only cares about the beat, the melody and or the lyrics, and could give two sh!ts what guitar, pickups, fx, amp yer using.

this is all subjective stuff and much good music has been made with junk instruments and support gear, so the common denominator is your talent, or lack thereof.

is an $800 set of duncan zephyrs worth the asking price? is a $50 set of whatever pups worth their asking price? only you, the prospective buyer can honestly answer that question. me? i make my own pups so i can only blame or praise myself.

[cjfaro]

Originally Posted by Narcoleptigon

OK. I can't really go on with this much more. Your last diagram is almost right, but for two things: For some reason, the tone pot is not grounded. 4.7nF would be a great choice for the alt cap tone. A 1.6kHz Rz would be nice for a deep "singing" sort of lead tone, but the resulting Rz for the L200TN might sound a little dull. It was my other original suggestion. Your call. In any case, definitely try the 0.0047uf on the HOoP switch.

As I've explained several times, a given C (Capacitance) value will produce a particular Rz (Resonant frequency) depending on a PUP's inductance, which is measured in H (Henry). With two 250k Ohm pots, the Rz for the PUP's in your diagram will have a ~+3db peak. The Wilde L45S measures 2.0H, and the L200TN is 1.8H. Use the calculator on this page to find the Rz for the cap and cable-C values that I recommended, using the H value of each of those PUP's:
http://www.calculatoredge.com/new/resonance.htm

The type of cap doesn't matter, only the value. It's the same with resisters and coils -- only the value matters to the circuit. You can pretty easily find +/-10% value caps. Ceramic are just fine. Some other types can leak and change value.

However, the properties of the PUP materials affect tone, because they affect the magnetic field. The properties of the field itself also affect tone and response, but the materials in the other components don't. Only the measured value of the other components matter, including cable-C. Credentialed pros have explained it as such. Some tests have confirmed it, and it makes sense logically. I'm inclined to believe it.

I believe you can rest your case. I have corrected the diagram and I will experiment with various values of caps.
Thank you.

[Narcoleptigon]

Great, cjfaro! Glad I could be of some service. I hope my posts did not seem unnecessarily technical. I certainly do not seek to obfuscate. I only wish to share the knowledge I have gained to aid others in getting the tone they seek with the minimum expenditure. As you can see, it's really not that difficult, and much cheaper than you might imagine.

Heck, now I'm interested in the 1.6kHz lead tone option for my pending MicroCoil Strat build. I think I'll use two P/P's and go for ~2.2/1.6kHz for the lead PUP, and a standard 47nF/~2.5kHz for the Neck. I might use "Grease Bucket" circuits. I think the MC's would benefit from it.

[uriah1]

True, tone is in the eye of the beholder. I have heard Teisco pickups that just sound great..orig PAF to die for, etc...however, I have read where a lot of low dol
pickup mfg have many returns for issues..good tone on a few p/u, and sub-par on others...............that would be a hassle for me...

[Wrong-Note Rod]

Originally Posted by Rob DiStefano

the tone is in the ear of the beholder.

far too often, the player obfuscates over "tone" whilst his/her listening audience only cares about the beat, the melody and or the lyrics, and could give two sh!ts what guitar, pickups, fx, amp yer using.

9/10s of your audience is more interested in the color of your shirt than the "tone" of your guitar.

the other 1/10 are the guitar players that dont have a gig that night.

[musicmatty]

Originally Posted by Wrong-Note Rod

9/10s of your audience is more interested in the color of your shirt than the "tone" of your guitar.

the other 1/10 are the guitar players that dont have a gig that night.

http://bobbyandthejammers.wordpress.com/



Amen to that Im laughing my %%**#$ Off:smile:

[cjfaro]

I have finally completed the guitar last night. (Never got the chance to properly thank Narcoleptigon for all the advices, so here it is. THANK YOU!!!) The sound is good except for the neck cover plate buzzing when I touch it. The pup cavity below is shielded but not grounded.
Do I need to ground the copper shielding? or is it another problem altogether?

[Chet Johnson]

Originally Posted by copperheadroad

not your typical tele set ,more of a modern sound

True. These are very loud, and dark. I have this set in my relic tele.

These are 100% worth $50.

I hate the more expensive rails that I've tried. Duncan hot rails -lounthat and very bright.. Joe barden- vintage output, VERY EXPENSIVE, and very bright.

I would recommend the gfsfor a try, just read the description.s of all three tele sets so you get your desired tone and output.

[3 Chord]

wire, magnets, bobbins and maybe some metal for a baseplate. That's it. Sometimes paying more gets good results, sometimes a cheap pickup suits what you are looking for.

I just took out my SD Broadcaster (great pickup but was tired of the mid rich tone) and put back in a $17 ARTEC. Go figure!

[JohnS]

Originally Posted by Tele-Monster

Pickups are one of the most important factors in tone. I think its a 3rd of the guitar trinity: quality guitar, pickups, amp. So IMO I think you DO get what you pay for.

Are they better then stock MIM pickups? Most likely yes. I replaced some cheap Squier strat pups with GFS pups and they were a big improvement. Were they better than my 57/62 pups? No. Were they better than my Lollars? Not even the same league.

As always YMMV, but in MY experience, I've ALWAYS regretted (and eventually replaced) cheap aftermarket pickups.

+1