Oil filled capacitors: can you notice the difference?...

[58strat]

I remember my friends old strat tone control had this real bassy tone but the guitar tone underneath sounded very good. I find that the tone control on newer strats have this midrange bass thing happening but not this sweet bass I seem to remember from the old strat. Anyone with a similar experience? Thanks Garry

[Wayne Alexander]

There are people who will tell you that you can't hear the difference between different capacitor types (ceramic disk, polypropylene, polyester, paper in oil, etc.) in a guitar tone circuit. I can, or at least I think I can. Hovlands, old Bumblebees and the newer Jensen Paper-in-Oil ones sound better to me than Orange Drops, ceramic ones, or Mallory 150's in a guitar tone control. It doesn't cost much to find out for yourself. The value of the tone pot matters too - higher values will give you a brighter "core" tone.

[hookstrapped]

I'm a huge believer in the value of Hovlands... when it comes to humbuckers. I first discovered them in the lespaulforum as I was trying to improve the sound of my daugter's old Epi LP. Really did wonders for it.

Now, I've dropped them in my MIJ 72 Thinline and CIJ 72 Custom. Don't really hear a difference with single coils, but with humbuckers I get a much more useful range from the tone pot and wherever the pot is adjusted it sounds clearer and just plain better.

[jjmantele]

Remember, the "tone" cap determines the sounds you don't hear by sending some of the treble to ground. I guess different brands/types of tone caps could ground out the treble in "different ways."

You never hear any of the sound going thru a tone cap. That's what it's there for. To remove tone (treble.)

[e-merlin]

So, if one wanted to experiment with different caps, where would one get them? I'm just using what I can get through my regular suppliers.

[Buck Cannon]

anybody got any links to buy some? :D

[Lyle Caldwell]

www.angela.com is a good source. They have NOS vintage caps, cheap caps, great modern caps, pretty much anything you want.

But while I find a cap makes a huge difference in an active tone shaping circuit (for instance, in a wah or amp circuit) and different types can really change the sound and noise level in an amp power circuit, the differences between types of caps in a guitar are slight. Value differences are huge.

To the original question, modern Fenders use .022uf caps. Older Fenders typically used .05uf (.047 uf) and .1uf caps, which do sound much darker. That's probably what you want, and Angela sells lots of good choices in all these values.

For myself, I use Orange Drop 716s minimum, cause they don't corrode and introduce noise as the cheaper caps often do. And in my LP, I did notice a positive change when I put in some NOS Gudeman Oill and Wax caps, but I really think that was because they had drifted well out of spec (both rated at .012uf, but they were way out of the 5% tolerance- I don't remember know what they actually measured), not just because they had vintage appeal.

So use Orange Drop 716s or some other equivalent modern cap at a minimum, but feel free to experiment with more expensive caps- they're still pretty cheap ($2-$10 for most of what's available today).

[maxvintage]

I think what people hear as a difference in type of cap is actually just a subtle differeence in the value. Caps often differ from their rated value, so switching caps will almost always produce a different sound, even if the different type of caps (ceraamic/polypro, paper in oil, etc.) are the same rated value

As was mentioned--the signal does not pass through the cap--it only controls what's bled off. What makes it to the amp doesn't pass through the cap

[hookstrapped]

While I respect the point made about what caps do and don't do, I also know what my experience with Hovlands and humbuckers have been and the difference I hear is not simply a subtle difference in the actual (vs. rated) values of the cap.

Like I said, it affects the sweep, so I imagine it responds differently to the signal coming from the tone pot. Specifically, it makes the pot act in a more sensitive manner throughout its range. And as far as being maxed out, signal is still affected by the cap -- that's the idea behind the Fender No-Load pot -- so a cap can still make a difference.

[maxvintage]

Whatever sounds good is good, sure. Just dn't see how you can get around the laws of physics on this. You never hear the sound of the cap--it's not in the signal chain. You only hear what's left after the cap removes high frequencies. If different caps are effecting the rate of roll off, it's because they're of different actual values

I've tried the angela paper in oil caps in guitars and basses, and while I thought I heard a diffrence it was not so large that it coudn't have been my imagination

[benmeza]

Originally Posted by maxvintage

I think what people hear as a difference in type of cap is actually just a subtle differeence in the value. Caps often differ from their rated value, so switching caps will almost always produce a different sound, even if the different type of caps (ceraamic/polypro, paper in oil, etc.) are the same rated value

As was mentioned--the signal does not pass through the cap--it only controls what's bled off. What makes it to the amp doesn't pass through the cap

I think you are probably right here. It is probably more dramatic in older caps in older guitars since the values drift over time - especially on those paper in oil ones.

The sound 58strat is thinking of is probably a combination of a different value cap than modern fenders AND that how much that cap has drifted over the years...

[sparky]

Capacitor values indicate their capacitance, or ability to store charge. In a tone control we are not using their capacitance, but their impedance as it relates to various frequencies. In a theoretical cap this would be directly related to the capacitance, but in reality other factors have an influence; inductance is one that springs to mind, as it will affect the high-frequency roll-off and certainly varies between different types of cap. There are probably others. There is plenty of scope for caps to have differing characteristics in this application, even if the capacitance measures the same. As mentioned above, the actual capacitance also varies, many caps having a claimed tolerance of 20%; and if you read the manufacturer's small print that sometimes means something like '90% of the product will be within 20% of the rated value'.
Caps are cheap, you can afford to experiment, using recommendations as a starting point only. Keep the caps that were less than ideal, they could be perfect in another guitar.

[TG]

As a source don't forget Antique Electronic Supply.....one of our forum sponsors.