Mixing CS 51 Nocaster Pups Question (Tech Help)

[Twang-O-Matic]

If the Neck pup is wound North and the Bridge pup wound South, and you want to put a Bridge Nocaster in a Nashville Telecaster with a Strat Middle pickup...what Strat Pickup could you use if any? So its not out of phase? Or can you just reverse the wires on the CS 51 Nocasters like you do when installing a Duncan with Fenders? I think a RWRP Strat Middle pup would make it out of phase in the 2 position. If anyone knows about this please help or refer me to someone who knows...Thanks.

[sjtalon]

To get the hum cancel with a Fender Strat pup would be tough. Most ALL Fender middle Strat pups are south. The Fender Strat pups that are NOT hum cancel, are ALL SOUTH. The sets that ARE hum cancel, have the Neck and bridge changed to NORTH, so even those sets have a south middle pup. That's the dilemma.

You could reverse the wires like you mention, but you would have to cut the jumper wire on the metal bridge plate and run a separate ground wire for that. No big deal. Then you would still have hum cancel in position 4 (neck and bridge) anyway.

For noise reduction you need BOTH RW ( or reverse connected) AND reverse polarization. When you can or have to live without it, then it's just a reverse connection deal to get the phase right with it's mate.

If you don't have a push pull pot in there to get the neck and bridge together you may want to do that while you have the solder gun out. I say, a Tele just ain't a Tele if you can't play it with the bridge and neck together !

[boris bubbanov]

If your stock Tex Mex bridge pickup in that Nashville is leaving you wanting, consider one of 2 things:

1) Affix a Mojotone copper plated steel baseplate to the stock pickup.

2) Or install an Original Vintage bridge pickup. Yes, I like the CS No-Caster bridge pup a little better, but seriously the Original Vintages are real nice.

Not a bad idea to come up with a way to blend or add the neck pickup in with the bridge on the Nashville. SJ is right, something's missing without N + B. Even if it is not RWRP.

[Twang-O-Matic]

Originally Posted by sjtalon

To get the hum cancel with a Fender Strat pup would be tough. Most ALL Fender middle Strat pups are south. The Fender Strat pups that are NOT hum cancel, are ALL SOUTH. The sets that ARE hum cancel, have the Neck and bridge changed to NORTH, so even those sets have a south middle pup. That's the dilemma.

For noise reduction you need BOTH RW ( or reverse connected) AND reverse polarization. When you can or have to live without it, then it's just a reverse connection deal to get the phase right with it's mate.

If you don't have a push pull pot in there to get the neck and bridge together you may want to do that while you have the solder gun out. I say, a Tele just ain't a Tele if you can't play it with the bridge and neck together !

So, I can reverse the wires, snip the ground, and establish a new ground just like you do when installing a Seymour Duncan Pickup with Fenders? And I will just not have noise cancelling in the 2 position...which I am ok with. Not a big "noiseless" proponent anyway.Don't particularly care for anything but the Bridge tone on a Telecaster. For Middle and Neck, prefer Stratocaster pups...but will use a Neck Tele pup. However, I like the Strat-sounding Neck Tele pups.

[Twang-O-Matic]

You can't have 2 pickups together both wound south? Why is that? Or can you, but they won't be hum-cancelling? I am not sure. The OV's are both North, are they not? How does that work?

[Twang-O-Matic]

Originally Posted by sjtalon

To get the hum cancel with a Fender Strat pup would be tough. Most ALL Fender middle Strat pups are south. The Fender Strat pups that are NOT hum cancel, are ALL SOUTH. The sets that ARE hum cancel, have the Neck and bridge changed to NORTH, so even those sets have a south middle pup. That's the dilemma.

You could reverse the wires like you mention, but you would have to cut the jumper wire on the metal bridge plate and run a separate ground wire for that. No big deal. Then you would still have hum cancel in position 4 (neck and bridge) anyway.

For noise reduction you need BOTH RW ( or reverse connected) AND reverse polarization. When you can or have to live without it, then it's just a reverse connection deal to get the phase right with it's mate.

If you don't have a push pull pot in there to get the neck and bridge together you may want to do that while you have the solder gun out. I say, a Tele just ain't a Tele if you can't play it with the bridge and neck together !

Originally Posted by boris bubbanov

If your stock Tex Mex bridge pickup in that Nashville is leaving you wanting, consider one of 2 things:

1) Affix a Mojotone copper plated steel baseplate to the stock pickup.

2) Or install an Original Vintage bridge pickup. Yes, I like the CS No-Caster bridge pup a little better, but seriously the Original Vintages are real nice.

Not a bad idea to come up with a way to blend or add the neck pickup in with the bridge on the Nashville. SJ is right, something's missing without N + B. Even if it is not RWRP.

Boris...I am just not sure about the OVs. I have a similar tone to Brent Mason; Vince Gill etc. And, from what I've heard, the OVs are very trebly, and more useful for, say, Bakersfield tones? However, I played a 52RI the other day and it did sound pretty good. Was set on the Nocasters because they have more of a full, thick compressed even tone to me. Similar to my aforementioned influences. Is your experience with the OVs in an Ash body more similar to the Nocasters? Was thinking about a Duncan Broadcaster or Duncan 5-2. Opinions?

[sjtalon]

Lets look at it this way.

If one pickup in a set is reverse in polarization to it's mate AND that pickup is CONNECTED in reverse ( as far as wind for wind) to it's mate, you will have noise cancel, when they are played parallel. YIPEEEEE.


If you have two pickups ( any two) and they are both the SAME polarization, and you connect them the same wind wise, then they will be in phase with each other and work in harmony and sound great, yada yada yada.......just not have the noise canceling ability.

That's it.

[Twang-O-Matic]

So if the Nocaster Bridge is wound south (which I'm still not sure exactly what that means) and a Strat Middle pickup is wound South, why don't they work in parallel, no. 2? Is it because the middle pup is RWRP? It can still be wound South and be RWRP? I need to find a good book explaining all this technical info regarding pickups etc. LOL I guess it would be beneficial, eh?

[sjtalon]

"Wound" has to do with the direction of the COIL wire wind, start to finish. So actually you can look at it as how they are each connected, because you can reverse that anyway.

South and North is JUST A MAGNET DEAL...... POLARIZATION.


RW/RP is a relative term, that being relative to the other pickup that is in the guitar.

Polarization or wind has nothing to do with pickups played parallel not working for the most part.


re-read my post above, it's all there in black and tweed, concentrate on the black

[Twang-O-Matic]

so RW and RP are the same thing, in essence? Simply put, one pickup's copper wire is wound the opposite direction from the the pickup it is connected or related to?

[sjtalon]

RIGHT ON !

a pickup will be made to be RW AND RP TO THE OTHER in the set. That would make them noise reducing when played parallel.

That's why a Humbucker pup is "humbucking", it is really TWO COILS, and ONE IS rw/rp to the other. Although they are in series, it is the same principle as putting two single coils in parallel.

[Twang-O-Matic]

Why doesn't a 51 nocaster work in no 2 position when a Strat middle is RWRP? If they are both south wound, shouldn't that work in parallel? I.E. no. 2

[sjtalon]

Sure they will still work together.

However, there are TWO subjects you need to grasp here.


In this case you are mixing and matching different pickups and that "screws" up the manufactures order of doing things. There sometimes isn't a constant with which is the RW/RP in the SET of pickups. They will work with one another (Tele and Strat), you just may not get the benefit of the noise cancellation because by bad luck (mixing pups) you don't actually have one that's RW/RP. Remember I said that was a relative term.


•NON noise cancel Tele sets: BOTH pups are north top magnets.

•noise cancel Tele sets: the BRIDGE is reverse polarized (is south) AS WELL as connected in reverse of the NECK.

-------------------------


•NON noise cancel Stratocaster sets: the pups are all south polarization.

•noise cancel Stratocaster sets: The Neck AND Bridge are made RW/RP of the middle ( so they are NORTH) so that when you play in either position 2 ( bridge and middle) or position 4 ( neck and middle) the N and B are going to be RW/RP in relation to the MIDDLE so they then have noise reduction.

Now with a NASHVILLE TELE they pull the Strat deal with the Tex Mex Set, that is the bridge and neck are NORTH and the middle is south.

So by having a TELE bridge from a noise cancel set, and any FENDER STRAT middle pup, you end up with two south tops, polarization wise. Like I said, that's just the way the cards fall. Now if you mix and match other brands it gets just as crazy as there is NO INDUSTRY STANDARD as far as WHICH PUP is the RW/RP !!


Don't worry you are getting it !


I've had to do some editing to this big post so please re-read it. All done now @ 8:09P

[Twang-O-Matic]

I think I'm getting it. However, the Fender Tech told me the tele Bridge is SOUTH UP and the Neck NORTH UP Polarity on the Nocaster set? That would mean the Bridge is wound clockwise and the neck counterclockwise?

[sjtalon]

DANG IT !!! so sorry to confuse you right now. Bad timing !!

I fixed my post above.

You are 100% correct on the Nocasters and I got mixed up myself, and read my notes wrong I have on Fender pickups ( I keep track of what is what as you can see)

Dyslexic moment.


I don't keep track of the wind directions pre se. By wire color you know which is positive and which is negative (ground) That's just how they make them when the stick the leads on.

[Twang-O-Matic]

LOL...thats ok. :) So on a no-noise cancelling Tele set ALL pickups would be clockwise wound with south up magnetization polarity? Whereas, RWRP would be: Bridge, clockwise wound with south up polarity and Neck, counterclockwise wound with North Up polarity?

[sjtalon]

No now you are X-ed


TELE, No Noise Cancel, BOTH NORTH

TELE Noise Cancel, bridge is changed to SOUTH, and the hook the wire colors up backwards

One positive lead wire is on the start end winding of the coil and the other pickup lead (negative ground) wire is is on the finish end of the coil wire.

That would be another way of visualizing if the POSITIVE coil lead wire is attached in relation to the wind direction. They don't really wind them in reverse it is more how they are hooked up actually. That's why some use reverse CONNECTED instead of reverse wind in discussion.

[Twang-O-Matic]

http://www.stewmac.com/freeinfo/Elec...ng/i-5967.html

I found this, and it seems to explain some things too. Pretty interesting. It says that on a Strat that its the middle pickup that is RWRP to the bridge and neck? Bridge and neck are clockwise with south up polarity and middle pup is counterclockwise with north up polarity? Does that sound right to you? maybe you reversed it on the Strat part of your post too? Just wondering...trying to get all this figured out. LOL

[Twang-O-Matic]

On the Tele, non-noise cancel its both North Up....okay...I got it. Which way wound though? Counterclockwise? Or are all Non-noise canelling pups wound clockwise?

[Peter Florance]

A North top Strat pickup ( which when wound regularly ) is opposite direction to a Tele bridge pickup which is south will work.
It will also work with the tele neck pickup which is wound the same way as the Strat pickup , it will not be humcancelling..
I use my ST60 bridge pickups for this we do it all the time.