If (Resistance) OHMS measurement is meaningless about Pickup Output

[Groovey Records]

If Ohms (resistance) measurement is meaningless about Pickup Output what terms should we use to describe the different qualities of their sound.

Bill Lawrence told Paul we have to get the word out

And, we must get the word out that Ohms have nothing to do with the output of a pickup."

What are the terms that we can use to meaningfully contrast the difference between several pups that will give us some insight to the way they sound?

Discuss !

[Groovey Records]

Calling all techies

[guitarzan13]

No clue here....Did Bill say what does??

[patrickhowell]

A combination of the strength and type of the magnets used, the shape of the magnetic field, the number of winds on the bobbin, the gauge of wire, the dimensions of the coil, and the distance from the strings.

If two pickups are the same in every other way, then measuring the DC resistance will give you an idea as to which pickup has more windings than the other. It's kind of like saying that one car is faster than another because it has a larger engine. All other factors the same, this is probably true... but not always the case.

[telepath]

I have got so used to this notion - higher resistance being 'hotter' / 'louder'
So, apparently not then .. ;)

Would it be fair to say that a half-decently made pup of say 10k or more is very unlikely to sound thin and wimpy?
Or is that quite feasible.
Excuse my electronic duffery ..!

[boneyguy]

A pickups output is measured in millivolts (mV) I believe.

[BigDaddyLH]

Wouldn't a closer analogy of pickup resistance to cars be: one car is faster than another because it has more cup holders?

[Don Mare]

Oh boy ~~ OK, but lets keep just a few things here that we all used for 65 years running - for we open all the cupboards and throw all the food out the window-- ok - pretty please??--

Output can be predicted with ohms when or if the magnets are the same and the wind tension is close to Leos original tension requirements. - he liked them tight - he knew they were louder and sounded better if wound tight - why I bring this up is a loose wind will not be as loud -

so you have basic stock style Teles Or Strats in Alnico 5 - these ohm readings will have output predictability - providing one accounts for skinny wire 43 gauge - over thicker 42 - the thinner 43 will have less output then 42 at the same reading,ok -- 43 was used in Tele necks and Broadcaster bridges - a quick un-official rule of thumb is a 43 gauge 9.9k Broadcaster is close to a 7.5k wire 42 in output - easy enough to remember

then you have alnico 3 Tele stuff - again you will have output predictability - just remember 3's will have a tad less then 5's

basic stuff - no need to argue the above much - if at all--

now you have designs that are not from the 50's - those pretty much are the ones that are not predictable - that's where the "get the word out" needs applied -

hope this helps--

its cool to get the word out - but lets try not to kill good info in its wake~ gosh~~


ps.. another quick rule of thumb is a bobbin with 42 wire will usually max out at 8k - that's when makers switch to smaller wire 43 to enable them to wind it up to higher ohms - but remember there is a gap of about 2k to reach the same output - what I need to say is a 8k-42 gauge - will be louder the a 9k wire 43 --- but a 11k 43 will be very close in output to that 8k wire 43 pickup
DM

[bootlegger1929]

this might be an interesting read for this topic..

"Ohmmeters are cheap and handy, but
(1) they cannot measure the output of a pickup
(2) the whole concept of predicting output/tone by the 'ohms' of various pickups is Bogus.
Anyone can show this by comparing the sound of traditional Gibson/Fender/Gretch pickups, with their meter readings.
You'll find that the tone/output of even the most common pickups is not consistent with ohmmeter readings. Some readings are exactly the opposite of what ohmmeter propaganda claims. High resistance readings don't always mean the pickup output is loud or dark, etc.

'Matching' or estimating output and tone from 'ohms' is exactly the same as trying to guess at the sound of a speaker by it's 8 ohm rating. Ohmmeters can't measure output, only resistance, and that has very little to do with the sound.

The sound of a guitar pickup is a complex blend of many factors, most of them interactive. There's way too much going on to predict tone or output just by comparing ohms or magnet types, and even then, only when comparing identical pickups.

So, there's just not much info available here about magnets or ohms, since trying to predict the output or tonal possibilities between different pickup brands and models just doesn't work that way. Instead, on our website we try to give a description of the sound compared to a standard pickups, along with responses from customers who've actually used the particular pickup."

this was posted on Harmonic Designs website. The guy seems to know what he's talking about because i have his Vintage+ pups in my tele and i love them. i'm not affiliated with HD in any way, just a fan.

[Roli]

Originally Posted by Groovey Records

What are the terms that we can use to meaningfully contrast the difference between several pups that will give us some insight to the way they sound?

Millivolts and Inductance.

Check this Bill Lawrence article: http://www.billlawrence.com/Pages/Pi...evaluation.htm

[morroben]

I've often wondered the same thing.
I have two SD 5/2 bridge pickups. One measures 7.3 and one measures 7.7. The 7.3 sounds hotter and spankier. Makes no sense to me, but I've had friends with better ears than mine confirm it.

[Don Mare]

Originally Posted by morroben

I've often wondered the same thing.
I have two SD 5/2 bridge pickups. One measures 7.3 and one measures 7.7. The 7.3 sounds hotter and spankier. Makes no sense to me, but I've had friends with better ears than mine confirm it.

could be two things -- magnet Gauss is not equal or wind tension is tighter on the loud one -

also lower ohms may sound louder due to the added treble -
a real test of this would need done using a decibel meter - but you may find you get the same reads on a meter - what happens often is human ears and meters don't always listen the same way-

[jjkrause84]

OK....not the first time I've heard all this so I'm not skeptical at all.....however....if ohm readings are, at best, only very approximate then why do pickup makers bother using them at all? Sure the argument could be made that they've become short-hand but surely that could only happen if they were in use before. So, what happened?

[Derek Kiernan]

Originally Posted by jjkrause84

OK....not the first time I've heard all this so I'm not skeptical at all.....however....if ohm readings are, at best, only very approximate then why do pickup makers bother using them at all? Sure the argument could be made that they've become short-hand but surely that could only happen if they were in use before. So, what happened?

Because most don't know how they would go about evaluating the output of a pickup, either through lack of (once expensive) equipment or lack of knowledge or interest.

[Derek Kiernan]

In terms of how a pickup sounds... the primary character of the pickup is established by the interaction of its inductance with the user's cable capacitance. The interaction forms a resonance in the upper midrange, the most sensitive region of human hearing, quickly dropping off response above the resonance. This is partially why people with very similar instruments and amplifiers get very different results with the same pickups, outside of manufacturing errors in the pickups, differences in finer qualities of the instrument and playing technique. Higher capacitance with the same inductance results in a lower resonance. You can go all through shimmering, sparkling, harsh, bright, warm, aggressive, and dark as you add a bit of capacitance.

With the same cable capacitance, more inductance means a lower resonance as well. "Overwound" pickups increase inductance by having more winds, while often having negligible differences in DC resistance. If you were to have a substantially "overwound" pickup and an otherwise identical pickup with the standard amount of turns, compared at the same resonance (adjusting capacitance to interact with the pickup's inductance), then most would be very hard pressed to tell you the differences.

You can get all kinds of tones out of a traditional inductance or lower inductance pickup through simple adjustments with capacitors. But to do that, you would need to know your cable's capacitance and your pickup's inductance to begin to add appropriate amounts of capacitance for coloration. Cable manufacturers have traditionally been bad at this but are starting to report capacitance per foot more dependably, certainly more often than pickup makers report their models' inductance.

[Groovey Records]

Originally Posted by jjkrause84

if ohm readings are, at best, only very approximate then why do pickup makers bother using them at all?

Thanks Don for breaking that down

So if i want to compare an HB from manufacturer XYZ Alnico 5 6K against another XYZ Alnico 5 7K it is meaningful

Comparing a noiseless blade pups resistance against a 43 wire single coil is totally moot.

We already know that setup between identical pups has a radical effect.

I always wondered Don, since your menu of Pups is so varied, how the subtle differences in timbre between pups of very close resistance and magnetic values was achieved.

Now I understand better thanks Roli for the link

any one else have an insight to how Bill feels on this topic

[patrickhowell]

Originally Posted by BigDaddyLH

Wouldn't a closer analogy of pickup resistance to cars be: one car is faster than another because it has more cup holders?

Really, I think that size of the engine is a more accurate metaphor. A bigger engine will probably have more horsepower, but in a heavier car, that may not matter.

With everything else the same, more windings will give you stronger output, and it will also increase the DC impedance of the pickup. The DC impedance is a clue to the output of the pickup, but it is meaningless without the rest of the information.

[Groovey Records]

Metaphors aside could someone add to the more technical side of the discussion?

DC millivolts and inductance measurements what do they tell us in relation to output?

[Gene Machine]

the voltage induced into a coil by a varying magnetic field is

E= N * d phi(t) / dt

N=number of wraps

phi(t) = magnet field through a single wrap

d/dt = time rate of change

So, if you have more wraps, you will get more output.

BUT a stronger/weaker magnet will also change phi(t), as will the distance to the strings, pickup geometry, brass plate onthe bottom, big chrome tele bridge the pickup is mounted into, etc.


So, all other things being equal (i.e. phi1(t)=phi2(t) ) between two pickups, the number of wraps N is meaningful. Otherwise, it is just a general indicator.

That being said, a humbucker that measures 8K is likely to sound more open and vintagy then a humbucker measuring 14K, which will likely be very middy and hot... "probably".

g.

[superhand]

I never understood what's the big deal about pickup output. Why not just find the tone you want and buy a boost pedal?

[beep.click]

Originally Posted by Groovey Records

What are the terms that we can use to meaningfully contrast the difference between several pups that will give us some insight to the way they sound?

1) Mojo
2) Twang
3) Cojones

[Groovey Records]

Originally Posted by superhand

I never understood what's the big deal about pickup output. Why not just find the tone you want and buy a boost pedal?

If I have the tone I want,
boosting the signal would definitely F it up

[Derek Kiernan]

Originally Posted by Don Mare

Output can be predicted with ohms when or if the magnets are the same and the wind tension is close to Leos original tension requirements. - he liked them tight - he knew they were louder and sounded better if wound tight - why I bring this up is a loose wind will not be as loud -

so you have basic stock style Teles Or Strats in Alnico 5 - these ohm readings will have output predictability - providing one accounts for skinny wire 43 gauge - over thicker 42 - the thinner 43 will have less output then 42 at the same reading,ok -- 43 was used in Tele necks and Broadcaster bridges - a quick un-official rule of thumb is a 43 gauge 9.9k Broadcaster is close to a 7.5k wire 42 in output - easy enough to remember

But there's no reason to wind it to the same reading. Given an equal number of turns of 42 gauge and finer wire, the finer wire will result in a higher reading, sure. But it will also give you it will have a higher voltage output. The reason is finer wire gives you more turns per square to result in a denser coil, the same reason you say a tighter wound coil is louder with the same gauge wire. If you have the same number of winds, you have the same inductance, resulting in resonance across the same frequency range but with a slightly less sharp quality to the peak.

Given the same inductance (/number of winds) and more densely wound wire in an otherwise like design, a pickup using finer gauge wire will give you a smaller coil with less noise and more output over its 42 gauge cousin.

[Groovey Records]

Originally Posted by Derek Kiernan

But there's no reason to wind it to the same reading. Given an equal number of turns of 42 gauge and finer wire, the finer wire will result in a higher reading, sure. But it will also give you it will have a higher voltage output. The reason is finer wire gives you more turns per square to result in a denser coil, the same reason you say a tighter wound coil is louder with the same gauge wire. If you have the same number of winds, you have the same inductance, resulting in resonance across the same frequency range but with a slightly less sharp quality to the peak.

Given the same inductance (/number of winds) and more densely wound wire in an otherwise like design, a pickup using finer gauge wire will give you a smaller coil with less noise and more output over its 42 gauge cousin.

Derek all things aside theory is one thing, practice another

Mr Mare speaks from experience.

Have you seen this? www.donmare.com

[Derek Kiernan]

If you look to the first section I quoted:

Originally Posted by Don Mare

Output can be predicted with ohms when or if the magnets are the same and the wind tension is close to Leos original tension requirements. - he liked them tight - he knew they were louder and sounded better if wound tight - why I bring this up is a loose wind will not be as loud -

Don agrees that coils with more turns per square "were louder and sounded better", as observed by Leo. This is the practice, especially pertinent to voltage output. The resistance moderates the sharpness of the resonance but doesn't say much else.

[patrickhowell]

The voltage output of a pickup, in mV, is highly dependent on the string tension, the note played, the pick attack, distance from the string, et cetera.

[boneyguy]

Originally Posted by Groovey Records

Derek all things aside theory is one thing, practice another

Mr Mare speaks from experience.

Have you seen this? www.donmare.com

And Mr. Lawrence speaks from more experience than all of us put together. He's the guy you quoted in your OP if you recall. If we're using real world experience as the main criteria for judging whether someone's viewpoint is right or wrong then I thought this should be mentioned.

Originally Posted by patrickhowell

The voltage output of a pickup, in mV, is highly dependent on the string tension, the note played, the pick attack, distance from the string, et cetera.

And isn't this kind of at the heart of this discussion if we're strictly talking about output. Ohms is a measurment of DC resistance and not a measurement of output. When a pickup is actually 'outputting' it's generating AC current. Again, if we're talking strictly about measuring output then it would seem to me that mV is the way to do it. If we're talking about a general comparative less/more type of prediction of output than it seems we can make more or less accurate guesses using DC ohms. But again that's not a measurement of output that's a way of predicting less or more type of comparisons.

[Groovey Records]

Originally Posted by boneyguy

And Mr. Lawrence speaks from more experience than all of us put together. He's the guy you quoted in your OP if you recall.

Yes I did.

How does my above statement discount any of Mr Lawrence's lifelong experience.

My post counters Derek's statements which in writing didn't seem cohesive.

I understand his points but the way he contrasts them against what Don had to say seemed illogical and moot

Why must one statement be exclusive of the other.
I do not see it as an either or conversation.

Let the dialog continue

[boneyguy]

Originally Posted by Groovey Records

Yes I did.

How does my above statement discount any of Mr Lawrence's lifelong experience.

My post counters Derek's statements which in writing didn't seem cohesive.

I understand his points but the way he contrasts them against what Don had to say seemed illogical and moot

Why must one statement be exclusive of the other.
I do not see it as an either or conversation.

Let the dialog continue

I don't see it as an either/or thing at all so on that we are in agreement.

Allow me to explain. Here's my perception on how the dialogue in this thread has proceeded and why it prompted my comment.

Firstly, in your OP you quote Bill Lawrence as saying "And, we must get the word out that Ohms have nothing to do with the output of a pickup."

Then Don Mare challenged that quote with the notion of ohms being a very useable measurement in predicting output and let's not be too hasty in discarding it.

Then Derek offers some information and his understanding on the matter.

Then you tell Derek that Don should know what he's talking about because of his amount of experience compared to Derek's theorizing which lead me to comment that if experience is the main criteria in judging validity of opinion then Bill's quote should have more merit than Don's challenge based on the amount of Bill's experience.

I was simply transfering what appeared to me to be your logic in your comment to Derek regarding experience.

Anyway, I'm not trying to stir up trouble. I was just responding to what I saw as a somewhat unfair comment.

I'm done now and I will never speak of this again.

[Moggl]

Originally Posted by jjkrause84

OK....not the first time I've heard all this so I'm not skeptical at all.....however....if ohm readings are, at best, only very approximate then why do pickup makers bother using them at all? Sure the argument could be made that they've become short-hand but surely that could only happen if they were in use before. So, what happened?

As Don pointed out above your post, when the difference between pickup models is only in the windings, resistance can indeed be a useful indicator. Some pickup manufacturers do just that - they have one design, and vary the windings (and magnets) to achieve different pickups. This is also where the Alnico vs. Ceramic dispute stems from. Where pickups are designed individually to suit specific tasks, the 'Ohms rule' as well as the 'Alnico rule' do NOT apply.


The best way to determine a pickup's output for myself is to compare them in the same or a similar guitar, played through the same gear with the same strings on, into the same amplifier. I use a pickup I know for reference first, and then see how the other pickup compares; to determine the 'hotness', I check how quickly a pickup kicks the amp into overdrive (in comparison).

[Moggl]

Originally Posted by Derek Kiernan

In terms of how a pickup sounds... the primary character of the pickup is established by the interaction of its inductance with the user's cable capacitance. The interaction forms a resonance in the upper midrange, the most sensitive region of human hearing, quickly dropping off response above the resonance. This is partially why people with very similar instruments and amplifiers get very different results with the same pickups, outside of manufacturing errors in the pickups, differences in finer qualities of the instrument and playing technique. Higher capacitance with the same inductance results in a lower resonance. You can go all through shimmering, sparkling, harsh, bright, warm, aggressive, and dark as you add a bit of capacitance.

With the same cable capacitance, more inductance means a lower resonance as well. "Overwound" pickups increase inductance by having more winds, while often having negligible differences in DC resistance. If you were to have a substantially "overwound" pickup and an otherwise identical pickup with the standard amount of turns, compared at the same resonance (adjusting capacitance to interact with the pickup's inductance), then most would be very hard pressed to tell you the differences.

You can get all kinds of tones out of a traditional inductance or lower inductance pickup through simple adjustments with capacitors. But to do that, you would need to know your cable's capacitance and your pickup's inductance to begin to add appropriate amounts of capacitance for coloration. Cable manufacturers have traditionally been bad at this but are starting to report capacitance per foot more dependably, certainly more often than pickup makers report their models' inductance.

I'd like to add that the guitar + lead combination directly interacts with the amplifier's input. Depending on the input layout, the 'feel' of your guitar and cable setup may vary greatly.

[Casual_Reader]

After reading all of this, I'm not even sure what the original question is anymore... but I'll abuse metaphors one more time by comparing pickups to the electrical aspects of loudspeakers. Even then, it's a bit messy... One can include the effect the enclosure and the mechanical properties of the cone/frame, etc has on Q, but has to disregard the wave propagation aspects (reinforcement of the soundboard/walls/room and diffraction of soundboard edges). Also, the pickups are on the input side - not driven by amps.

the main thing is the Q factor - a qualifier for the resonance peak. Its height/sharpness and where it's located in frequency is going to have the most effect on a pickups inherent sound relative to the circuit in which it's wired.

http://online.physics.uiuc.edu/cours...asurements.pdf

the best part of the above is where he says that from his 6th floor lab, the pickups could tell when cars, trucks and buses were passing by the building.

for more - see Terry Down's page on the effects of different cables and pots:
http://terrydownsmusic.com/technotes...itarcables.htm

even more if you google: Bill Lawrence Q filter, etc.

Tightness and tension of the winding... a pickup wound as neatly as the coil on a loudspeaker would have a much higher inductance with reduced high frequencies. I've read that it also increases the capacitance... I'm not quite sure how that's supposed to happen, but I read it on the internet, so it must be true.

the fact that some winders start out neat and tight and then loosen it up / scatter it more as they progress only makes the resistance comparison more meaningless.

After quickly proofreading this, I'd think you'll have more appreciation for Don trying to keep the comparisons simple.

[Groovey Records]

OK BG I understand how you may of got that

This Typo from Derek through me off. I couldn't follow the thought process behind his writing at 3 am

Derek Wrote

Given an equal number of turns of 42 gauge and finer wire, the finer wire will result in a higher reading, sure. But it will also give you it will have a higher voltage output.

My apologies to both posters for being abrupt

[boneyguy]

Originally Posted by Groovey Records

OK BG I understand how you may of got that

This Typo from Derek through me off. I couldn't follow the thought process behind his writing at 3 am

Derek Wrote


My apologies to both posters for being abrupt

Hey, no need to apologize. Everything's cool here with me. And to be clear I'm not taking sides in any of this. I'm reading this thread and learning alot from guys like Don (who makes amazing pickups and has a wealth of knowledge) and you and everyone else.

Rock on.

[Don Mare]

what terms should we use to describe the different qualities of their sound?

Food, Taste Bud Flavors, Smoke, Metals, Machines & lighting terms!

[Groovey Records]

Originally Posted by Don Mare

Food, Taste Bud Flavors, Smoke, Metals, Machines & lighting terms!

Its woody you left out woody LOL

Don has TELEKINESIS

[Derek Kiernan]

Groovey Records - No apologies needed. All is love :D We're all trying to contribute to a best answer. There are a lot of considerations, as we can see from going through the responses!

[boris bubbanov]

Originally Posted by Groovey Records

So if i want to compare an HB from manufacturer XYZ Alnico 5 6K against another XYZ Alnico 5 7K it is meaningful

In reading Don's site, and re-reading his post, I don't think he said this. He's avoided saying this by reminding us that the tightness is gonna vary, maker to maker and in fact he's explained that two S-D pickups of the same model don't even match, due to variances in winding from pickup to pickup.

As far a rejecting analogy in favor of science, I haven't seen the use of the term "Henries" yet. We here have all different levels of engineering expertise; sometimes analogy is the all inclusive tool that best keeps all participants learning and in the discussion.

Here's my new favorite: "Determining pickup output based on Ohms is like determining which state the car you are riding is in by counting the number of potholes you hit."

[patrickhowell]

Originally Posted by boneyguy

And isn't this kind of at the heart of this discussion if we're strictly talking about output. Ohms is a measurment of DC resistance and not a measurement of output. When a pickup is actually 'outputting' it's generating AC current. Again, if we're talking strictly about measuring output then it would seem to me that mV is the way to do it. If we're talking about a general comparative less/more type of prediction of output than it seems we can make more or less accurate guesses using DC ohms. But again that's not a measurement of output that's a way of predicting less or more type of comparisons.

Yes, a mV reading would actually be a useful number, as opposed to a sloppy prediction based on the pickup's DC resistance. However, there are many factors to be taken into consideration if we want a measurement like this to be possible. It would be similar to the "dB at 1w1m" measurement used to compare speaker sensitivity - which is I suppose is essentially what we're looking for in the pickup. Some sort of "sensitivity" or "efficiency" data would be the best way to compare the output of the pickups. Though like I said in my last post, factors such as frequency, string distance, and pick attack, the position relative to the length of the string, etc all must be taken into account.

[Groovey Records]

Thanks for brining it up Boris

I've been wanting some one to address this and the size of the magnetic field

earlier Mr Lawrence's excellent web site was referenced and linked to.

http://www.billlawrence.com/Pages/Pi...evaluation.htm

I hope no one minds if I quote from Bill directly

I am not sure I understand all this so feel free to interpret as you can

Originally Posted by Bill Lawrence

Output and Sonic Evaluation


I'm asked by players, over and over, " How much output do your pickups have?" This is a very disturbing question because one should consider, no matter how much output your pickup has, you'll never get more than 50 watts out of a 50 watt amplifier!


Rating Pickups with DC Resistance

DC resistance is NOT a power rating; it is the resistance of the wire in a pickup's coil at zero hertz, something that only occurs when the guitar isn't played. If some marketers use DC resistance as a power rating for an AC device, like a pickup, then they only show their ignorance. If we use DC resistance as a parameter, we disregard the fact that, due to Pe and other conditions that result in eddy currents, the effective resistance (Rac) is frequency dependant.

DC resistance (Rdc) tells you as much about a pickup's tone and output as the shoe size tells you about a person's intelligence!


Millivolts

The output rating of pickups is generally given in millivolts (mV). Millivolts could be a helpful parameter if all manufacturers would agree on a standard measuring method that provides such data over a wide frequency range. Now, let's say with this information, we plot an impressive-looking graph showing the different output levels at various frequencies -- does this give you a good idea of the sonic character of a pickup? Yes and no. Don't forget that not every guitar is created equal, and neither are the players. We use different kinds of strings, cables, amps and speakers, and a pickup is only one link in a chain that finally determines tone and output.


Inductance

Inductance ( henry) is another valuable parameter for the sonic evaluation of a pickup but requires some basic understanding of electrodynamics. As a general rule, the higher the inductance, the lesser the highs. For example, a traditional strat pickup has an inductance around 2.3 henry while a Gibson PAF has an inductance around 4.4 henry and some of the so-called "distortion" pickups have an inductance above 8.0 henry. With these comparisons, you get a basic idea. Besides inductance, there are other factors that also need to be considered in projecting tone and output of a pickup.


Tone and output mainly depend on the relation between inductance, magnetic strength and the efficiency of the pickup, as well as the relation between the inductance of the pickup and the capacitance of the cable.