Joe Barden clones ?

[ron jeffreys]

Originally Posted by markesquire

1) How in the world do they have so much output? (I know that resistance isn't determinative, but man alive!)

2) Are they REALLY super bright? I've only played them in person once, and they were a bit too bright. BUT almost all of the clips that I've heard are way too bright. For example, the first clip below is Danny Gatton playing sleepwalk. The neck pickup is tolerable but sounds like a bridge, then when he flips to the real bridge pickup, it is absolutely painful. The second clip is the new Lawrence ones, not quite as bright

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RyjtW-rvWoQ


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ywZoNlbiFtw

I Knew Danny back in the late 70s while working as a repairman at Randy Woods picken parlor in Nashville along with Danny Farington,Charlie Gresset,Jerry Jones and several other fine repairmen.Danny was more into Les Pauls at that time and as I remember was always going for a very bright tone which worked very very well for him.As I recall his taste for the brighter side of tone was always present what more can you say about such a great playing style,technique,imagination and HIS TONE.Other than what a nice genuinely humble talented man he was.On the other hand I always rolled the highs back a little on my Bill Lawrence Pickups Which I've been using for over 30 yrs.After all Bill Had the PATENT on the BLADE PICKUP in 1974 which make all those since 1974-Bill Lawrence clones.The new L48 tele pup can sound just as bright and in your face as the Bardens (in my opinion)The Bardens are fine pickups but I,ve watched the blade interest peak for several years and wondered if anyone else knew the whole story.Ron Jeffreys

[markesquire]

Does anyone have any clips of the Bardens sounding truly authentic and vintage sounding? All the videos I see are highly-processed smooth jazz stuff that doesn't even sound like it was recorded with an amp, just straight into a processor. To me, the Lawrence L48 clip on youtube seems a bit closer.

[rangercaster]

i believe that Gatton and Barden started modding Charlie Christian type PUs and the dual-blade design evolved from there ...

[ron jeffreys]

Originally Posted by rangercaster

i believe that Gatton and Barden started modding Charlie Christian type PUs and the dual-blade design evolved from there ...

Bill Lawrence had dual blade pups in the 70s.check it out

[markesquire]

Bottom line question: do the new Bill Lawrence pickups offer a cost-effective alternative to Bardens?

If you say no, give a reason, all I hear is that "there's no alternative"!

[kp8]

How do the bardens play with fuzz? Usually with standard single coils and a fuzz first in chain you can get the fuzz to sounds great and it also cleans up when you back off the vol. knob... with active p/ups and after a buffer you get a different response. How to traditional fuzz boxes (like a tone bender) interact with Bardens?

[Derek Kiernan]

Originally Posted by markesquire

Bottom line question: do the new Bill Lawrence pickups offer a cost-effective alternative to Bardens?

If you say no, give a reason, all I hear is that "there's no alternative"!

Bill's not attempting the same design goals, so there's no direct answer. What do you like about the Bardens? What are you looking for? If you admire them for their clarity and strong sensitivity to playing technique and dynamics, Bill's blades absolutely deliver those aspects.

Ron Jeffreys made a thread recently and shared clips demonstrating them in both Strat and Tele. Worth looking at if you haven't seen the clips yet. There's also a clip of Bill demonstrating them on Youtube with a bit of a warmer tone.

[ron jeffreys]

Originally Posted by markesquire

Bottom line question: do the new Bill Lawrence pickups offer a cost-effective alternative to Bardens?

If you say no, give a reason, all I hear is that "there's no alternative"!

I will gladly give you a reason and a solution but will you do what is needed??O.K here it is The solution is to trust Your Ears and dont listen with your eyes.And formost quit listening to all the hype.Usually from someone whos playing you like and they use brand a or c and you and your friends have been led to think that you cant play any thing like your idol with out his trusted brand of pickups.In that case you'll never get the girl or do any of the things you want to dn without the right color car and the right guitar with the right pickups If you want THAT sound try the Bill Lawrence Blades pluged into a good Fender Tube amp turn the treble up louder than usual and remember IT DON"T NEED NO REVERB AND TURN IT UP this doesn't work as well wit a 10 or 20 watt solid or digital amp and if you dont have the chops or the desire to develop them remember we can always use more REALY GOOD BASS PLAYERS and DRUMMERS that dont drag or rush.Cmon you can do it trust your ears you have 2 of them and practice your chops.I think then you'll make the right pickup choice.I have confidence in you thanks Ron Jeffreys

[markesquire]

No offense, Ron, but I'm not sure I followed you. I am not seeking to emulate any certain player. I just hear a big difference between absolute vintage tele pickups (alnico 3 with brass cover) and Bardens. I like both for what they bring to the table. Accordingly, I would like to try out a set of Bardens, but wondered if the Lawrence set is close b/c $300 is objectively a lot of money for pickups when you have a family, regardless of whether they're legitimately worth it. Some people say yes, some say, no because their design goals were different. Just trying to get an opinion with real reasons instead of the hype that you're talking about.

[Flashback]

I dont know if you saw the videos with him playing the Lawrences. but at this point in the game I love my Keystones and WILL buy a set of the new Lawrence blade pickups cause they sound so clear.

I am never interested in coping others tones. More about playing. But damn if the tone in those recent vids are not ****ing AMAZING.

[Bardenstruck]

Originally Posted by markesquire

Accordingly, I would like to try out a set of Bardens, but wondered if the Lawrence set is close b/c $300 is objectively a lot of money for pickups when you have a family, regardless of whether they're legitimately worth it. Some people say yes, some say, no because their design goals were different. Just trying to get an opinion with real reasons instead of the hype that you're talking about.

:) Well, you see, when it comes to "real reasons" in music and tone, sometimes the Real Reasons are just impossible to put in words :) What I mean here is that I tried probably all well known Tele pups you can imagine, and finally chose Bardens because... they have that "Real Reason" in their tone :) Lawrence pickups are good, as are many others. But after trying them I didn't have that feeling that I will remember their tone and feel forever. Bardens are kind of like listening to a very special and original band, while other pickups are like just listening to whatever it is right now on the radio. Not sure this helps.. :)

[Twangmeister]

Apples and oranges. See if someone near you has a Tele with Bardens in it, play it with your rig and your style and see what they do for you. No offense intended regarding cost and family (I have those factors, too), but if you're serious about your tone, if you make part or all of your living from your playing, if playing the guitar is more than a hobby around the house, then you have to spend the money to find out. I think of it as a "rental fee" or "tuition" Don't like the gear you bought? Re-sell it at a bit of a loss in money, but for the gain in knowledge. I decided on the Bardens having been through numerous p/ups, guitars, amps, and pedals.

I agree. Trust your ears. But trying to talk about the sound of pickups, isolated from all the other factors in your rig and playing style, is a fun time-filler, but doesn't substitute for physically playing and listening.

[Bardenstruck]

Originally Posted by markesquire

Does anyone have any clips of the Bardens sounding truly authentic and vintage sounding? All the videos I see are highly-processed smooth jazz stuff that doesn't even sound like it was recorded with an amp, just straight into a processor.

I just found this youtube video, the Tele has a Barden Gatton in the bridge (at 4:11 and 6:05): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O-3iTCHAUsg

This might be a good example because overall sound is not hi-end really.

[Mr.Reed]

Well I just ordered the Bill Lawrence over the Barden on price alone, but I'll tell you how it sounds verses the videos of the Bardens.

[JD0x0]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2B1s_...eature=related

[Bardenstruck]

Originally Posted by Mr.Reed

Well I just ordered the Bill Lawrence over the Barden on price alone, but I'll tell you how it sounds verses the videos of the Bardens.

Would be cool if you could post a video with approximately the same sound setting as the Bardens videos to compare them. I think Lawrence and Barden pickups are two completely different animals though.

[Ronnyth]

I just installed a new pair of Bardens in my American Deluxe Telecaster and I still can't believe my ears! Even before the upgrade this was a very good guitar. Now it's phenomenal. SOOO responsive and the sound is so musical. I only stopped for five minutes to post this. I'm gonna be playing all night! =)

[Pete Gorilla]

I just got them installed yesterday and I am still hypnotized. I think to compare Bardens to other replicas is pointless. Bardens are a different universe.

[Pete Gorilla]

Very soon I will create a detailed demo video with my new bardens on a Fender Super-Sonic amp. I will make a tour through the Vibrolux, Bassman, Burn channels, from crystal clear vintage rockabilly sound to the dirty rock sound in every pu position.

[Pete Gorilla]

Bardens helping you reach the next level, but they need you as well. Bardens cannot give you good sound if the DNA is not in your hands.

[Pete Gorilla]

[Bardenstruck]

Originally Posted by Pete Gorilla

Your Tele looks gorgeous, my friend!

Can hardly wait to hear how it sounds!

[SushiDanWah]

Any opinions about using Bardens in an Esquire? A lot of the talk here is about the neck - is the bridge Barden "too much" to use on it's own? Thinking about trying one with a cocked wah wiring set-up...

[Bob Davis]

Here's a link to a clip of me playing Sleepwalk on my '52 Re-issue which has Joe Barden pickups. For people who say you can't get sweet-tone with Bardens because they're too sterile, I disasgree 100%
You can also get that very cool Bill Kirchen tone with Bardens as well......!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m7YcBaZQUn8

Bob D.

[Doug 54]

Just Paypal'd a used- newer set of Barden pups for a good $$.

Couldn't see paying nearly $300 new for em!

have had em b-4 but gave the guitar to a friend ( 80's Fernandes refretted by Mark Kaiser here in SW OH)

[Bardenstruck]

Originally Posted by Doug 54

Just Paypal'd a used- newer set of Barden pups for a good $$.
Couldn't see paying nearly $300 new for em!
have had em b-4 but gave the guitar to a friend ( 80's Fernandes refretted by Mark Kaiser here in SW OH)

One good reason to buy them new though is the lifetime warranty JB provides to the original owner.


http://www.joebarden.com/main.php?se...etime Warranty

-

[Bardenstruck]

Another youtube demo: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KkCAsdRMqcQ
Approx. from 1:48 I think it gives a pretty good idea of how they sound in this Strat.

[Doug 54]

will take a gamble on warranty issues!
Got mine for almost $100 less than new,
they look like they haven't even been used!!

With the high $$ of Barden's, the current economy and what the future holds, AND Barden's history of closing shop when times get tuff as he did a few yrs ago....

I gots a good deal

[KT88]

I do have a couple of thoughts as I come back to scan this thread: I am surprised at the lengths people will go to buy something other than a Barden...hoping to get a Barden sound and then asking all about if the non-Barden pickup sounds like a Barden. I totally understand the price factor, but buying something else with two steel blades is not going to mean that it sounds like a Joe Barden pickup! Don't get me wrong - I know they are expensive and asking questions and wanting samples is totally cool. It's the part about buying something else and then wanted them to be a Barden that I am referring to.

On Price: I have gotten mine new but often used or from stores that were willing to (quietly) let them go new for cheap. I just got a Jazz-Bass set for $190 from a place going out of business for example. I had to save up for my first set. That's just how it goes.

I have the 70's or early 80's OBL (German made "Original Bill Lawrence") L450 dual blade in a Strat form factor pickups (all types - the L,S, and XL and others). The new Wilde L45S or whatever it's called is not the same design (and Becky will tell you that as well). Just an FYI. The new one is cooler sounding. Also the Lawrence design uses Alnico magnets (Bardens are ceramic). I don't want to get into a debate about ceramic vs alnico in a steel dual blade design (example, Barden himself says magnets to not affect sound but I disagree - they affect feel to a degree. Kind of like the debates people have about the "sound" of a tube rectifier) but the fact that there are different materials, winds, etc. - I assure you the BL's and JB's are not that close.

I know they are expensive, and I had to save up for my first set - in fact I remember the day I ordered them - I was like what the hell am I doing, $130 per pickup? (this was back in 2002 or something). So I took the risk, Bardens sound very much in the single coil ballpark but they do have more punch and can be bright expecially when close to the strings. I did an A/B test myself against Fralin Vintage Hots and honestly - I could not tell them apart in the recordings save for when I palm muted in a particular passage - the extra punch gave the Barden away. Now, if I was using a softer more easily compressed single coil to compare the Barden to, it would have been more obvious. Bardens do not get pushed into compression like some alnico rod pickups can with heavy picking. Also I purposely se the Barden height to be in a position where I got a familiar single coil sound (set higher they sound more distinctive, bright, and to some - annoying.

[Pete Gorilla]

I think there is no such a thing as "Joe Barden clone"... may be "Joe Barden look-alike"

[surfco]

Didn't Bill Lawrence invent the Twin Blade design?
Wouldn't Joe Barden pups be a clone of Bill Lawrence's pickups?
Not meant to offend Barden products. I'm just curious.

[Pete Gorilla]

Originally Posted by surfco

Didn't Bill Lawrence invent the Twin Blade design?
Wouldn't Joe Barden pups be a clone of Bill Lawrence's pickups?
Not meant to offend Barden products. I'm just curious.

look and sound is not the same thing. Lots of pu company is making twin blade or hot rail or similar looking pups. But bardens have a special sound that nobody can clone. Just like the finish on the stradivarius string ismtruments. They know the wood, the age of it, the laquer ingrediens but they cannot make a same sounding instrument so far.

[callaway]

Will people please get this in their heads... no one is claiming that Joe Barden invented the blade design. WE ALL KNOW it was Bill Lawrence.

This is akin to someone talking about Bare Knuckle covered humbuckers and having someone chime in with the daft remark, "didn't Seth Lover invent the covered humbucker with Gibson?"

Believe me... Bardens sound different than other bladed humbuckers. I'm not going to claim better or worse, just different and unique. No one else has voiced them to sound like a bright, punchy, full single coil quite like Joe Barden has.

So please, no more remarks about "Lawrence invented... blah, blah."

[KT88]

>Didn't Bill Lawrence invent the Twin Blade design?
>Wouldn't Joe Barden pups be a clone of Bill Lawrence's pickups?


I see your point. Here is what I am thinking. Even though a pickup is a simple device, the materials you use (the grades and exact composition of the magnets, wire, and other parts) effect the sound. One maker's Alnico 5 is actually...not the same in most cases as the other maker's Alnico5. A "Clone" is most commonly defined as an exact copy of something. Have you heard of Blockhead amps or Metropolous amps? They clone Marshalls. Blockhead for example were trying to reverse engineer the Radio Spares transformers, duplicate everything about an original Marshall even down to the specific welding style of the chassis and the Bulgin style power plug on the back. They really wanted someone to have as close an example to a Marshall as it is possible to have.

Then there are other amp builders that will make a JTM45 amp for example but refine minor points about the circuit, or purposely use metal film resisters instead of the old carbon comp stuff. The latter is not a clone but it's pretty close.

Then you have the guys who make amps inspired by the priginal circuits but even more changes - maybe more filtering or beefier transformers or eq tweaks - maybe a master volume.

So Bill Lawrence did a dual blade pickup that fits in a strat body - true.
Joe Barden did not clone those pickups if you look at the JB design though. Chances are that the components - even ones that seem basic like the steel blades - are different (different composition). The magnets are definitely different. The winding is different (perhaps the wire guage as well). The Lawrence seems to be fully potted, the JB is not.

When Bardens were not available for a period, Fender went to Bill Lawrence and asked him to make a pickup that they could install in the Danny Gatton Tele. Bill remarked with surprise at the sound of the Barden (he did not like it). He designed a pickup for the Tele that was his own design and in his opinion sounded better. That's another indication that the JB was not cloned from a Lawrence design considering Bill's response. He did not slam the JB too harshly but it was clear that he did not like it.

Hope that helps. The term clone usually means "exact copy for the purpose of the exact same product".

[Tele295]

Originally Posted by SushiDanWah

Any opinions about using Bardens in an Esquire? A lot of the talk here is about the neck - is the bridge Barden "too much" to use on it's own? Thinking about trying one with a cocked wah wiring set-up...

Absolutely! I played a single Barden Esquire as my main guitar for several years. Very versatile. I ran it into a Vibrolux Reverb with Celestions speakers, set Vol 4 treble 4 and bass 4. Just a good, all-purpose bar band sound that covered all the bases - rock, blues, country, jazz, surf, etc.. When I needed a little more dirt, I kicked on a Rat pedal and that was it - big Santana tone in the bassy position. The Leslie/Motion Sound shown below was fun on selected occasions, but not essential.

[Tele295]

Another Bardenized Esquire. Both have Barden bridges as well

[Bardenstruck]

Originally Posted by Tele295

Absolutely! I played a single Barden Esquire as my main guitar for several years. Very versatile. I ran it into a Vibrolux Reverb with Celestions speakers, set Vol 4 treble 4 and bass 4. Just a good, all-purpose bar band sound that covered all the bases - rock, blues, country, jazz, surf, etc.. When I needed a little more dirt, I kicked on a Rat pedal and that was it - big Santana tone in the bassy position. The Leslie/Motion Sound shown below was fun on selected occasions, but not essential.

Bardens are very hard to outplay - it says it all. Their versatility and range make it impossible to describe the tone in two words: the better you play, the more new sides of the pickups you discover. One cannot judge the Bardens after playing a couple of open chords, that's for sure :) And this actually makes them different to most any other pickups, they tend to uncover the player's character and skills rather than provide some particular preset sound.

P.S. Awesome axes you have here!

[Pete Gorilla]

My new Bardens first time on stage. The sound was breathtaking...

[markesquire]

Petergorilla:

Where are those clips?!!!!!!!!! I have a 62RI and have been battling over whether to get Bardens as well. It would be nice to hear them in the same guitar.

[Pete Gorilla]

I didn't have the chance to record it so far, because the Supersonic amp is so loud so the neighbors will call the police on me when I turn it up. I have to find a rehearsal room to record it.