Joe Barden clones ?

[ramseybella]

Originally Posted by GuloGulo

Thanks for the info. I just wanted to know because that ohm reading tells me its a low impudence pickup similar to G&L's, which explains the bardens hi-fi sound. I've known for a long time low resistance pickups have a better sound its just the nature of magnetism. I've been at a crossroads buying them or not. I mean I'd only be getting them because I love Gattons sound and since I play a lot of his tunes I thought why not have the same sound. I still can't justify that 200+ price tag, considering you can get really good pickups for half that.

Same reason Audiophile gurus prefer low wattage speakers to high output ones; they retain the Hi Fi value of the true sound. I have a set of old KLH speakers and the bass response is so sweet.

[GuitarJonz]

Originally Posted by GuloGulo

Thanks for the info. I just wanted to know because that ohm reading tells me its a low impudence pickup similar to G&L's, which explains the bardens hi-fi sound. I've known for a long time low resistance pickups have a better sound its just the nature of magnetism. I've been at a crossroads buying them or not. I mean I'd only be getting them because I love Gattons sound and since I play a lot of his tunes I thought why not have the same sound. I still can't justify that 200+ price tag, considering you can get really good pickups for half that.

Bardens are the perfect example of how a resistance reading, by itself, means absuloutely nothing about the actual output of a pickup. Despite the low Barden reading of about 4.5k, they have a strong signal, and there is never a problem getting a good output from them, and they are easy to balance, no wimpy neck pickup problems.

As you say, it is possible to get excellent sounding pickups for about $100, but they will not perform like Bardens, which are rather unique, nobody's come close to cloning them yet.

[Ronkirn]

Bardens are the perfect example of how a resistance reading, by itself, means absolutely nothing about the actual output of a pickup.

absolutely correct, as Bill Lawrence says, ". . . the DC resistance of a pickup is about as significant as what color shoes a person is wearing." relative to the sound/output of a pickup.

the resistance is measured in a DC (direct current) scale... interesting since all the voltages present in a passive guitar are AC (Alternating Current).*

* This is the basic concept, there is no need to explore the advanced theory.

Ron Kirn

[bgator]

Originally Posted by Ronkirn

absolutely correct, as Bill Lawrence says, ". . . the DC resistance of a pickup is about as significant as what color shoes a person is wearing." relative to the sound/output of a pickup.

I agree that DC resistance is an odd way to try and quantify pickup output, but I don't agree with you that DC resistance provides no indication of the output of a pickup.

Between different manufacturers, DC resistance isn't so helpful in comparing pickups. There are many factors (e.g., magnet strength and wire thickness) that also affect the output so as to make DC resistance useless in isolation. But I often look at different pickups from the same manufacturer. Assuming that manufacturer is using the same magnets and wire type (which is a fair assumption in many cases), I think it's possible to glean some useful information about the sound differences between two pickups just based on their DC resistances.

[Bardenstruck]

Originally Posted by bgator

I don't agree with you that DC resistance provides no indication of the output of a pickup.

It's useful to consider three parameters together: 1)resistance 2)inductance 3)frequency range.

[crawdad]

IF you are considering Bardens, be aware that they are bright pickups. I had a set that went to several guitars. In all guitars, they were bright, rather trebly and yes--punchy. Unfortunately, I could not dial out the harshness in the high end. I also lost the piano like twang in the low E string too, in every guitar I installed them in. Bummer for me.

There were things I liked about them--the power and the silence. The neck pickup alone is pretty nice overall. In the end, I gave up on them and moved on, like I did with EMG's, which also sounded good to me at first, but eventually had a sterile vibe that I couldn't get past. I greatly prefer the pickups that Dave Bubinski at Budz pickups has been winding for me, but I grew up with the vintage sound and to me it sounds better--Budz pickups give me that wonderful vibe.

While I am not totally anti-noiseless, due to certain environments where I have to have hum-canceling (lights, room wiring, running the guitar through comps and overdrives, etc), I much prefer a pickup that has a good tonal balance between low, mid and high frequencies and that certain greasy/twangy mojo that a single coil still does best.

If you listen to a bunch of later Danny Gatton CD's and you are in love with his tone, you might like the Bardens. Just remember, in the studio his tracks were probably compressed and EQ'd. Listen to some live stuff--that will get you closest. Turn your bright switch off or your presence control down, watch your treble knob and choose a warm amp, since all these things interact.

And yeah--though the output is like 3.7 k ohms, they are medium high output pickups. I don't know beans about the theory, but I know what I hear.

[KT88]

great informative thread. - so Clapointe (original thread starter) - what did you do?

[Ronkirn]

Many already know this, but it’s an often overlooked factor, the metal the bridge is made of can directly impact the sound emanating from the pickups,

As a “rule of thumb” Single coils tend toward a more Traditional Tele sound when installed in a ferrous bridge, and are a bit brighter, clearer, or articulate when used with a non ferrous bridge. And note too, not all alloys of Stainless are non-ferrous. Most DO impact the Magnetic field to some degree. If I recall Bill Lawrence mentioned there is only one SS alloy that is “invisible” to the magnetic field.

With the Bardens or about any Humbucker type (dual coil side by side) pickup, they tend to do far better in a non ferrous bridge. The opposing magnetic fields are “confused” by ferrous bridges which tends to muddy the quality of such superb pickups.

Also note, the absence of a bridge, equals a non ferrous environment for the pickup.

However, to further complicate the matter, many non ferrous metals can influence the magnetic field too. So ya slap a bridge on there and takes yer chances…

As I mentioned in another thread… everything you do, changes something.

Ron Kirn

[Bardenstruck]

Bardens in a Chinese Squire:

[Bardenstruck]

Originally Posted by crawdad

they are bright pickups

I thought Bardens sounded better with warmer all-tube amps. With one of my Bardens-equipped guitars I managed to nail a 100%-vintage Tele tone with no hum. Play with your setup, guys, these are much more versatile that they seem!

[Bardenstruck]

[Bardenstruck]

!
This is exactly what my Tele sounds like with Bardens!

[Tele295]

Originally Posted by KT88

Gatton said that the first ones were too dark, so they kept unwinding them and unwinding them until they sounded right. My understanding is that they are wound to be very efficient so while the dc resistence is low, they sound stronger than a typicl singlecoild would with those readings.

I'm not sure of the exact quote you are referring to, but I believe Danny only unwould the earlier Barden single coil/single blade pickups. Those were very dark, overwound, and noisy, but they were trying to capture the sound of a Charlie Christian pickup in a Tele-sized slot, with a matching bridge pickup. That design really has very little in common with the modern, double-blade Barden pickup.

[KT88]

i am talking about the development of the double blade pickup. It went from idea to the final verion. During that time, there was some development, as is normal for any product.

[Bardenstruck]

Originally Posted by KT88

i am talking about the development of the double blade pickup. It went from idea to the final verion. During that time, there was some development, as is normal for any product.

Well, there's a bunch of different double-blades out there, all sounding quite different. I don't think that this particular design itself dictates any specific tone. Ever tried SD blades? They sound nothing like Bardens!

[KT88]

"Well, there's a bunch of different double-blades out there, all sounding quite different. I don't think that this particular design itself dictates any specific tone. Ever tried SD blades? They sound nothing like Bardens! "

I was responding to something someone else said. I was referring to the tweaking of the Joe Barden pickups, but since the other guy said early JB's had a single blade, I clarified that I was referring to Joe Barden's double blade design. The interview with Gatton about it is on youtube. Yes, not all double blades sound the same just as not all alnico rod single coils sound the same, etc. etc.

[Ronkirn]

Didja know. . . a pickup, any pickup, should have no sound of it’s on…. Note the “Should”.

If all pickups were “made as well as they could be” in theory the output from any of them would be a “flat line” across the audio spectrum, thus contributing nothing to the sonic characteristics of the composite of the guitar. You would hear the sonic signature of the guitar devoid of any manipulation from the anomalies of the pickup.

That’s if it were possible to make the perfect pickup.

Therefore when any pickup displays a characteristic “tone”, what you are hearing are the “imperfections” across its audio spectrum.

If a pickup is “twangy” it typically will show a “peak” at certain frequency bands in the upper end. Say, around 2000 Hz (for sake of discussion). On that sounds like “cats fighting” may have those “peaks” at higher or slightly different higher frequencies.

Pickups with a “darker tone” will display peaks at more midrange frequencies, say, again for sake of discussion 800 Hz. With pickups that are more articulate just better able to “resolve” the harmonics, when compared to those that tend “blur” those same harmonics.

And it goes on and on… with each transducer (correct name for the class of instrument called guitar pickups) displaying a characteristic line across the audio spectrum ranging from 20 Hz to 20 KHz. It will be as “wiggly” as a mountain range, even in the best of circumstances.. but….

Lets say your guitar, is particularly resonant at say… 2000 Hz, and you have a “Twangy” pickup that “spikes” at 2000 Hz, the two working together will create a very large peak at that range and the resulting sound may be very, very grating,.. Oh unless the room, or the amp show a “valley” at 2000hz. But, what if you hearing is diminished at 2000 Hz…. You won’t hear it, but your “buddy” that has hearing particularly sensitive at 2000 Hz will be “tearing up” because the spike is so piercing to him.

What I’m saying is everything works in concert to produce a specific sound. There are NO perfect pickups.

Some of the audio anomalies recognized as characteristic of specific pickups may sound “good” . . . to SOME… and hideous to others. That does not make them good, or bad, except to the guy that owns ‘em or those that have to hear ‘em.

Achieving a “perfect” pickup requires the quantum application of applied physics. There is only one pickup manufacturer that does so that I know of. That is works out the end “sound” on paper (or computer) before ever poking a magnet through a bobbin, and … funny thing is, whatever pickup you’re playing, he almost certainly is responsible for initiating its design.

Now, credit, where credit is due…. Since there is no perfect pickup, there is only the pickups YOU like. Believe me, the audience couldn’t “give a sh**” about the pickups you choose, it’s only important to you, thus there are many pickup makers that make pickups with many sounds when analyzed on audio spectrum analyzers, and all will deliver a substantial and complete voltage to the amp. That’s all they are supposed to do.

This is why I don’t argue with people when they suggest a certain pickup, and I don’t make recommendations unless such is requested.

Anyone suggesting that their pickups sound better than some other make is possibly just ignorant of exactly what happens when you wind wire around a magnet, and wiggle a ferrous wire in the magnetic field.

Any good quality pickup is only going to sound as good as you are on the guitar. No one ever went instantly from rank amateur to guitar virtuoso in the half hour it would take to change the pickups…. So once again….. It ain’t the gear; it’s never going to be the gear. It’s the 6 inches of grey matter between your ears. Get that in shape and all the discussion about “good tone” fades to insignificance.

Ron Kirn

[evilBOXevil]

Originally Posted by Ronkirn

Didja know. . . a pickup, any pickup, should have no sound of it’s on…. Note the “Should”.

If all pickups were “made as well as they could be” in theory the output from any of them would be a “flat line” across the audio spectrum, thus contributing nothing to the sonic characteristics of the composite of the guitar. You would hear the sonic signature of the guitar devoid of any manipulation from the anomalies of the pickup.

That’s if it were possible to make the perfect pickup.

Therefore when any pickup displays a characteristic “tone”, what you are hearing are the “imperfections” across its audio spectrum.

If a pickup is “twangy” it typically will show a “peak” at certain frequency bands in the upper end. Say, around 2000 Hz (for sake of discussion). On that sounds like “cats fighting” may have those “peaks” at higher or slightly different higher frequencies.

Pickups with a “darker tone” will display peaks at more midrange frequencies, say, again for sake of discussion 800 Hz. With pickups that are more articulate just better able to “resolve” the harmonics, when compared to those that tend “blur” those same harmonics.

And it goes on and on… with each transducer (correct name for the class of instrument called guitar pickups) displaying a characteristic line across the audio spectrum ranging from 20 Hz to 20 KHz. It will be as “wiggly” as a mountain range, even in the best of circumstances.. but….

Lets say your guitar, is particularly resonant at say… 2000 Hz, and you have a “Twangy” pickup that “spikes” at 2000 Hz, the two working together will create a very large peak at that range and the resulting sound may be very, very grating,.. Oh unless the room, or the amp show a “valley” at 2000hz. But, what if you hearing is diminished at 2000 Hz…. You won’t hear it, but your “buddy” that has hearing particularly sensitive at 2000 Hz will be “tearing up” because the spike is so piercing to him.

What I’m saying is everything works in concert to produce a specific sound. There are NO perfect pickups.

Some of the audio anomalies recognized as characteristic of specific pickups may sound “good” . . . to SOME… and hideous to others. That does not make them good, or bad, except to the guy that owns ‘em or those that have to hear ‘em.

Achieving a “perfect” pickup requires the quantum application of applied physics. There is only one pickup manufacturer that does so that I know of. That is works out the end “sound” on paper (or computer) before ever poking a magnet through a bobbin, and … funny thing is, whatever pickup you’re playing, he almost certainly is responsible for initiating its design.

Now, credit, where credit is due…. Since there is no perfect pickup, there is only the pickups YOU like. Believe me, the audience couldn’t “give a sh**” about the pickups you choose, it’s only important to you, thus there are many pickup makers that make pickups with many sounds when analyzed on audio spectrum analyzers, and all will deliver a substantial and complete voltage to the amp. That’s all they are supposed to do.

This is why I don’t argue with people when they suggest a certain pickup, and I don’t make recommendations unless such is requested.

Anyone suggesting that their pickups sound better than some other make is possibly just ignorant of exactly what happens when you wind wire around a magnet, and wiggle a ferrous wire in the magnetic field.

Any good quality pickup is only going to sound as good as you are on the guitar. No one ever went instantly from rank amateur to guitar virtuoso in the half hour it would take to change the pickups…. So once again….. It ain’t the gear; it’s never going to be the gear. It’s the 6 inches of grey matter between your ears. Get that in shape and all the discussion about “good tone” fades to insignificance.

Ron Kirn

+1 on that, Ron.

A good guitar player makes good sounds from the guitar in his hands. Not the other way around.

(...and +1 on your Jefferson quote at the bottom!)

[evilBOXevil]

Sorry to double post in the same thread, but I'm copying something down here that I had posted elsewhere:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"I took an old SD hotrail that I'd had in an old strat, taped off the bottom (there are exposed solder points on the bottom of the hotrails), dremeled of the out mounting areas, and mounted it to an old brass bridge pickup underplate that I had laying around. I grounded off the brass plate completely separate from the PU.

It no longer sounds like a hotrail at all. It still has it's bass, but now it has the brightest top end I've ever heard from an SD pickup.
I'm no pickup expert, but I'm guessing that the bottom brass plate, and the tele bridgeplate have a lot to do with the change in sound from this pickup.

I do know that I love it's sound. It is loud as anything, and at least as bright a top end as the single it replaced. I t gives off no hum, but definitely has some microphonics in there.
I may offend some people here, but this thing sounds as close as I've ever heard to the old Barden bridge PU that I used to have (someone stole the guitar that it was in). And just like the Barden- with an overdrive and with the amp cranked up, I can yell into it and it comes out my amp ( just to give an idea of the microphonics).

I made this thing out of boredom and a box full of guitar parts, but I think I may have accidentally discovered my poor man's version of the Barden bridge PU."

I did find with the bardens that I had before that they were extremely microphonic, yet still had no hum. I think the microphonics have alot to do with the "touch sensitive" qualities that people talk about, and with the trebly bite that they seem to have. Some may say that microphonics are bad, but a bit of it suits my playing just fine.

[Doug 54]

I want a new drug----

a Rail Tele pup that....
IS forgiving !!!!

unforgiving... hi-fi...!!!! hahahahahahahaha!!
those descriptions of Bardens get me.
I HAVE had 'em b4-- they sounded very nice.

with its gauss, wire wrappings, magnet, rail material and the angle of the dangle -- Joe Barden has achieved soemthing that evidently even a Reddy Kilowatt with the snooping skills of a Jonathan Pollard still can't master.

Yes- it is also capital related.
Who wants to go forth on a venture that would be 'sub-niche' at best ??

GFS reverse-engineer folk-- "hunker down in SECTOR 16 !!"

IT CAN BE DONE-- and for < $$ !
$ 300.00 + new-- or a little less used is not for me-- now

[callaway]

If you want the Bardens, just pick them up. New or used, whatever your budget can do. Don't be fooled that there's other blade pickups that are similar. None of them sound as pure and single-coil as the Bardens. As far as the "Hi-Fi" sound, just roll down your tone knob and you have all the warmth of the Lawrence's (the only other blade pickups I would consider).

Some responses to previous posts:

1. The pickups on that Peavey do not look like Bardens to me. Joe Barden uses staggered rails on the bridge pickup (no one else does this) so that both E strings see both magnets.

2. The new Bardens are just as great as the originals. If anything, they are more reliable (apparently the old ones were susceptible to poor winding construction that would short or open). I have heard a bunch of old and new Bardens on my teacher's guitars, one of my guitars, and a few guitars in my local shop.

[Bardenstruck]

Originally Posted by Ronkirn

If all pickups were “made as well as they could be” in theory the output from any of them would be a “flat line” across the audio spectrum, thus contributing nothing to the sonic characteristics of the composite of the guitar.
...

There are some good points in what you said, but pickups are not microphones. If a pickup has a “flat” frequency response, it doesn't automatically mean it will sound just like any other “flat” pickup.

Harmonics are also an important subject to consider. Also, my experience shows that a pickup frequency chart is not “static”, meaning it interacts with many elements of the guitar it's installed in in a pretty unpredictable and not simply “proportional” way. I think you slightly oversimplified the process of tone creation. :)

[teleyouk]

Recently , I discovered the site of this Brazilian maker, specialized in dual blade stuff:

http://www.sergiorosar.com/

Perhaps an alternative...

[teleyouk]

...and I posted a thread to see if anyone could know these PU's. No reply until now...
But maybe they deserve to be known...

[rhomco]

if you look hard enough. In fact I listed a used set right here on the TDPRI Classified a month or so ago for as low as $199.00 and could not find a buyer. Hang in there and you will find some you can afford. There is no substitute.
Rob

[Doug 54]

as the economy does its thang...

will wait to see IF they go lower




dey better!!!

[Bardenstruck]

Originally Posted by Doug 54

as the economy does its thang...
will wait to see IF they go lower

Unfortunately some brands only got more expensive so far... Like Fender.

We will probably see more "promo deals" or combos like this one:
http://splitrockguitars.com/JoeBarde...l#JoeBardenHSS
but I really doubt any good boutique pickups will go lower.

[maestrovert]

Originally Posted by crawdad

IF you are considering Bardens, be aware that they are bright pickups.
...../.....Unfortunately, I could not dial out the harshness in the high end. I also lost the piano like twang in the low E string too, in every guitar I installed them in.

An astute observation, this has been my experience with Bardens as well....

[markesquire]

Originally Posted by Bardenstruck

I've played Barden T pickups before and was impressed with many attributes, but noticed a slight lack of vintage authenticity/grit that true single coils have. This video makes them sound even worse (imo) in that regard, very little vintage grit, almost like a computer-generated synthesizer guitar sound to me. Maybe he's just plugged straight in though, and they'd sound closer to vintage through an amp. Again, I really liked them through my amp, didn't notice a HUGE difference, but thought they lacked some of the vintage character.

[Bardenstruck]

Originally Posted by markesquire

I really liked them through my amp, didn't notice a HUGE difference, but thought they lacked some of the vintage character.

I think Bardens got closer to the vintage vibe than other hum-free alternatives. I do agree with you, they're not 100% your vintage Fenders. But if you wish to go noiseless Bardens are so far the best on the market.

Plus they have some vibe of their own which many players find attractive.

[Twangmeister]

I think Bardens got closer to the vintage vibe than other hum-free alternatives. I do agree with you, they're not 100% your vintage Fenders. But if you wish to go noiseless Bardens are so far the best on the market.

Plus they have some vibe of their own which many players find attractive.

+1. I find those attributes very attractive. Your ears are always your best arbiter.

[markesquire]

What are these attributes?

The best / only clip I can find that I really like is this one. Anyone know of any recordings they know were recorded with Bardens?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-LndRj_XqgA

[Twangmeister]

Markesquire: Not trying to sell you anything here, but I used my CS gold sparkle Tele w/ Bardens on probably 75% of my CD, which you can listen to via the link in my signature. Here's a mini-guide to some of the guitar/amp combinations:

"Falling Out Of Love With You": Bardens into an original '59 Bassman for the rhythm parts, solo is the Bardens through a late-70s 50w Marshall head into a 4x12 w/Celestion "greenbacks"

"Love Ain't The Only Thing": Bardens into a Tone King Meteor II head using the "tweed" side, Tone King speakers. All the parts were cut with this setup.

"Top of The World": Bardens into a cranked Vox AC30 w/Alnico blues, (all parts).

These were all cut with a Sure SM57 stuck in front of the various speakers, straight in with no pedals.

There are other examples on the album, but this'll give you a variety of tones I like with these pickups. I think for the tonality and variety of sounds available they're in a class by themselves. Hope this helps.

[thrashmetl]

Those are some kickass tones, I like how they break up, especially with the AC-30.

[rangercaster]

IMO, the noise that everybody is trying to get rid of is a major part of the vintage Fender sound ... would you want to ride a Harley that didn't make noise ???

[Bardenstruck]

Originally Posted by Twangmeister

Markesquire: Not trying to sell you anything here, but I used my CS gold sparkle Tele w/ Bardens on probably 75% of my CD, which you can listen to via the link in my signature. Here's a mini-guide to some of the guitar/amp combinations:

"Falling Out Of Love With You": Bardens into an original '59 Bassman for the rhythm parts, solo is the Bardens through a late-70s 50w Marshall head into a 4x12 w/Celestion "greenbacks"

"Love Ain't The Only Thing": Bardens into a Tone King Meteor II head using the "tweed" side, Tone King speakers. All the parts were cut with this setup.

"Top of The World": Bardens into a cranked Vox AC30 w/Alnico blues, (all parts).

These were all cut with a Sure SM57 stuck in front of the various speakers, straight in with no pedals.

There are other examples on the album, but this'll give you a variety of tones I like with these pickups. I think for the tonality and variety of sounds available they're in a class by themselves. Hope this helps.

Wow, that's an awesome album, man! Great job.

A very illustrative representation of both, Bardens and the amps you used too.

Dunno about the importance of noise mentioned in the previous post, but to me personally your tone has much more guts and character than the typical vintage Fender single coil sound. Good stuff.

[Twangmeister]

Thanks, guys. We tried to do a lot with limited time and budget. But that was the easy part-now I just have to figure out the marketing part.

Anyway, I posted these to illustrate the versatility in the Bardens that I haven't really found with the standard or "vintage" p/ups (although I have, and do utilize those when appropriate for the project). I don't get the "noise is part of the experience" philosophy either- I'm pretty sure Don Rich had to stand in the right direction to keep the buzz down. My point is that the Bardens work for me and the kinds of musical pallet I like to work from, whereas the standard p/ups, regardless of the noise factor, don't give me the same versatility. But, to each his/her own, right? FWIW, I bought all of my Bardens used off the 'Net or in trade, but if I had to buy them new I would simply because they're the best at what they do. But hey, if 60hz buzz is part of your sound's "vibe," by all means, go for it!

[markesquire]

1) How in the world do they have so much output? (I know that resistance isn't determinative, but man alive!)

2) Are they REALLY super bright? I've only played them in person once, and they were a bit too bright. BUT almost all of the clips that I've heard are way too bright. For example, the first clip below is Danny Gatton playing sleepwalk. The neck pickup is tolerable but sounds like a bridge, then when he flips to the real bridge pickup, it is absolutely painful. The second clip is the new Lawrence ones, not quite as bright

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RyjtW-rvWoQ


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ywZoNlbiFtw

[callaway]

Nothing rolling down the tone knob can't fix.

[Bardenstruck]

Originally Posted by callaway

Nothing rolling down the tone knob can't fix.

Exactly. Bardens high-end level on "10" simply makes them more versatile. But you'll find some totally different tones just by playing around with the knobs...