Anyone tried Callaham's Cryogenic Fralin pickups?

[altouchet]

Has anyone tried Callaham Cryogenic Lindy Fralin pickups? Are the claims they make true?

[JKjr]

There's a jazz bar across the lot from my favorite pub. I heard a sound , had to go see what it was. A guy playing old school jazz and swing on a hardtail strat with Callahams through a homemade amp. Clear, round ringing sound. It was a mile wide, but you could see through it...very open and airy, but not weak or wimpy in the least. Sounded good enough to make me abandon my pint to investigate!The guy said they'll wail with a hot amp, but I didn't hear that. If the tele set sounds half that good you're in for a treat!

[boris bubbanov]

I've got a set of the Callaham special wind Fralins on a one piece alder Tele, but other Fralins are wound to different specs so there's no true way to A/B them. Took a while to learn them, but I sure love them now.

[rhinocaster]

I tried them and it just clarified that Fralin Tele pickups are not for me. I have found a set of Fralin Tele Pups that I would use.

Now, his Strat pickups and Humbuckers have blown me away. Love them.

[JAMilrod]

I've been using the Callaham cyro Fralins in my Partscaster for about a year now, and I thoroughly love them. Note, however, that I haven't had any other p'up in this guitar, so it's hard to compare. I also used a 4-way switch, and I feel that I can get an amazing range of tones from really warm/dark jazzy stuff, to ballsy blues, to twangy country. I'm also very impressed with the clarity and distinction I feel that I get with them. Also note, that I have a very heavy right hand technique and I live and die by dynamics and tonal changes from my pick/fingers - these P'ups are as responsive as any I've played (and I've owned and played a lot of great guitars... but not a ton of Teles).

They don't have a strong distinctive voice, but IMHO, they are well-balanced, spacious and versatile. As with all p'ups - height adjustment changes the tone and responsiveness tremendously.

[Chris Leger]

I freeze all the electronic parts of my guitars. It gives them a piquant, morsellated quality, with none of the unctuousness of more garrigue components.

[boneyguy]

Originally Posted by Chris Leger

I freeze all the electronic parts of my guitars. It gives them a piquant, morsellated quality, with none of the unctuousness of more garrigue components.

That goes without saying.

[Vizcaster]

Originally Posted by Chris Leger

I freeze all the electronic parts of my guitars. It gives them a piquant, morsellated quality, with none of the unctuousness of more garrigue components.

Yes, but what about the nose and the finish? I like my pickups with hints of heather and oak.

[Don Mare]

heres a few Quotes I found online about this treatment

Cryogenic Processing
Electronics - Audio components

Cryogenics changes the way current flows in a conductor. Aluminum, brass, copper, tin, and lead used in the electron- ics industry are affected by cryogenics. All of these materials exhibit longer wear, and more durability, but they also exhibit a better conductivity rating. When these materials are in the molten state during the metal-making process, as the solidification takes place, some molecules get caught in a random pattern. And we know that molecules do move about at sub- zero and deep cryogenic temperatures, albeit slowly. Liken it if you will to water freezing or crystallizing as it turns to ice. The molecules move to form into a tighter, realigned pattern. Upon returning to room temperature, the molecules stay in this new relationship, producing less random, more even spacing, which in turn reduces the open areas between the grid matrixes to one another. The resulting product exhibits a better electrical current flow. It also strengthens solder to make their joints stronger and less subject to lifting. The printed circuit board material itself loses the stress it has, which helps the board last longer and puts less strain on component parts. The increase in conductivity has been measured between 5% and 10%. This helps cabling, wire, solder runs, and transformers to operate more efficiently.

Cryogenic treatment of stereo components produces a permanent change to the component that allows your system to transmit much more information. The result is improved sound reproduction without sacrificing any sound quality you presently enjoy, better imaging and staging, greater separation of individual voices, richer coloring, more presence and impact, greater clarity without loss of warmth, more definition in the upper and lower registers without added shrillness or boominess.

For stereo speakers, the same stress that limits a trumpet from resonating properly is removed to allow the speaker to vibrate evenly. The proper combination is to treat the speaker and the metal support structure as a unit to allow the stresses to release in both parts, taking the tugs and pulls out of the system. Music from CDs is richer and deeper in tonal attributes. Transformer magnetic cores saturate to a lesser extent, and there is a lower hysteresis in transformers.

Tests by major companies found advantages

Tests done by Boeing/Sunstrand demonstrated cryogenic processing extended the life of circuit boards in military applications, specifically boards used in cruise missiles. Tests done by Honeywell on experimental thin film magnetic memory wafers showed increased conductivity of metallic layers, reduced residual stress between layers, and possible (but not fully confirmed) "healing" of vacancies in the layers. Tests on transformers showed treated transformers had significantly less hysteresis. The magnetic core saturated less. Tests on transistors showed a decrease in rise time. Other tests indicate greatly increased contact life on relays, switches, and circuit breakers.

Parts with plastic fascias should have the fascia loosened to prevent breakage due to differential contraction between the plastic and the metal chassis.

Please note that deep cryogenic treatment of audio components is still considered an experimental process. We cannot guarantee that all products mentioned are suitable for this process due to differences in quality and type.

Audio components will require a break-in period before optimum sound is achieved and may extend longer than the manufacturer suggests. All items that have previous break-in must have a second break-in period. We will take every precaution possible to assure your satisfaction, but due to the wide variety types and quality of components that exist, we cannot guarantee that all are suitable to be cryogenically processed. We will be happy to work with you and discuss each individual situation to help assess its suitability. All handling is done with the utmost of care.

Some components the we Cryogenic process

Stereo speakers, Transformers, Cabling and Cords, Electronic components, Printed circuit boards, vacuum tubes, Amplifiers, Power supplies, CD players, CD's, DVD players, Power cords, Interconnect cables, Speaker cables, Isolation tables, Switches, Contacts, Flexible Circuits, AC receptacles

The Cryogentic treatment we use is a industrial process which stress relieves and modifies the molecular structure of metal to a far more uniform grain alignment. We have been using it since 1996 to increase our cutting tool life and on all our electronic components. Nearly all major manufacturing industries use this process on their tooling to increase performance of their products. Every major NASCAR team treats their engine components and parts of their electrical system for added horsepower.

Cryogenically treating our pickups has made such a difference that now I cannot listen to untreated pickups without it bothering me. We can measure an 18% increase in output but more importantly the tone especially overdriven is smoother and has more sustain. Overtones are produced in tune and thus create a fuller rounded sound. Overtones from untreated pickups are dissonant and create a beating that drives me crazy especially when playing overdriven.

Why is this important? Because single coil pickups do not sound good when they are overwound. Strat and Tele players especially those who play blues and rock are looking for more sustain and volume without having to work their fingers to the bone to get it. Playing with Humbucking pickups is easy, not so with single coils. Cryogenic treatment makes single coils play easy with faster response and feel. So many people make the mistake of trying "hotter" pickups and buying something that has a large (over 7.0k) resistance value, thinking that this will give them sustain.

First, the resistance measurement of a pickup DOES NOT indicate how "powerful" or "hot" the pickup will perform. For some reason pickup manufacturers do not relate performance in terms of voltage, current, or watts. I'm not going to try to buck the system, but do not get caught up in the idea resistance as a measure of power.

What does happen when traditional single coils become overwound is response is slowed (because of increased resistance), bass response becomes muddy (because of increased inductance) and lastly highs become thin and bright (because of a decrease in capacitance). All of which are bad in terms of musical tone. It doesn't matter if you are playing 50's country or hard rock, a muddy bass and thin high end does not work.

The pickups I have Fralin wind for us are done specifically to have a clear bass and a warm high end with a wide flat frequency response. The cryo treatment is the icing on the cake. Our bridge pickup with the base plate is as close to a humbucker for sustain and feel as you can get with a single coil. And with a roll of the volume knob everything cleans up for the piano like tones and clarity associated with great single coil pickups.

Cryogenics started with the Super Conductor / Super Collider to accelerate particles to the speed of light. Like many discoveries made by science it works its way down to the common man, or in this case, guitar players and improved guitar tone.

[boris bubbanov]

Holy Smokes, Don!

Thanks mostly kindly. Great read.

[Chris Leger]

Don, I know you're in the biz, and I know you didn't write it...

I'll call BS on 98% of the claims made in the quoted text.

And the BS itself is 99.99% pure.

[Ricky D.]

Originally Posted by Chris Leger

Don, I know you're in the biz, and I know you didn't write it...

I'll call BS on 98% of the claims made in the quoted text.

And the BS itself is 99.99% pure.

Would it be better BS if it were cryo-treated?

[Chris Leger]

Originally Posted by Ricky D.

Would it be better BS if it were cryo-treated?

Cryo-treated BS is every bit as much improved compared to untreated BS, as cryo-treated pickups are improved compared to untreated ones.

[Phaze]

Tastes great and less filling!
Smoother, clearer, cleaner, brighter, mellower, longer, stronger, I'll love you forever and your check is in the mail. Honest.

WARNING, WARNING: HYPE-METER PEGGED!

On the other hand, I sent them 70 buh for a "cold-rolled" steel trem-block for my MIM Strat and found it well worth the price for what it did for the "toan" compared to that melted-down-hubcap sliver of potmetal it came with. Ya pays yer money, 'n' ya takes yer chances, I guess.

[boris bubbanov]

Sounds like somebody who likes overwound pickups got his feelings hurt.

Always wait until all the evidence is in before forming indelible conclusions.

[Phaze]

I cryogenically treated my truck last week when it was -5F. It sounds really great now. More airy, defined, with a crisper finish. I think I'll leave my Gretsch Americana Showdown out on the deck tomorrow night, just as a test case. Worst that could happen is I'll relic the hell out of it, thereby increasing it's mojo.

[Don Mare]

FWIW
this shootout came up at The Weber Pickup makers Forum
If I remember correctly - it was said that Cryogenically treating Alnico type magnets was only ever done to degauss them to a preferred Gauss level - that seems logical in large magnet batches for machinery etc.. but for pickups thats going about things the hard way - we all have much easier ways to degauss them to the desired levels.

Then just today I read that for Earth Magnets they freeze and heat the metals to align them
North and south and it works better then other methods .

so all I can gather thats going on is a possibility of aligning "one direction" within the magnet more consistently ( but not the other - IE, North or South? ) and next would be some degaussing happening - but I may be wrong?

Also: freezing the coils - especially with the super freeze of Cryogenics's - could prove "costly" as metals ( copper in this case ) can expand and contract a thousands of a inch - a properly wound ("tight") coil could literally snap its own wires internally - I know this because I've left coils in my Home Fridge too long and lost them!! -- this is similar to bending a beer can in the middle till it breaks
Heat and Freeze coils and they can break at the pressure points - especially the tighter ends of the coil..


Note: disclaimer _ I'll state that i do not care what they say or do to their pickups - its their call - I just would like to know "what if anything" is really changing tone?

secondly I have no interest in doing anything that Leo "Did not do" & thats been my firm policy here - I just do what Leo did - I'll never try to second guess the best & the best was and still is--> Leo Fenders Hand Wound pickups from 1948 to 1964 era.. some of those pickups were the best this planet will ever see ( hear) and thats all I care about... nothing else concerns me... Don Mare

[Chris Leger]

One of these days I'm going to start a guitar parts business selling kiln-dried strings and vulcanised fret wire.

I could sit here and pick apart the claims Don quoted (and once more Don, I know you didn't write that stuff and you're clear that you're not making any claims for the process) but if you look at that copy with a jaundiced eye, you'll see that they aren't really making any claims at all.

Boris, cryogenics has been around a long time. We've been waiting for the evidence for 40 years. There's none in the copy above. There is some empirical evidence that cryo is useful in certain hardening operations, and it is helpful as part of a tool making or machining process when you want to stabilise your work or tooling.

But increasing the conductivity by 5%=10%?!?! Of metals with practically zero R? No. You'd be better-off working on a new solder formulation. Or using thicker wire. Or working out pot tolerances.

Metals in this context are not properly considered to have a "molecular structure." They have a crystalline structure. Cryogenics companies (follow the money) claim that the process yields more uniform precipitation and reduces residual stress in martensitic transformation. The "belief" is that you get a more uniform austenite/martensite transition when you quench to super low temps. But that belief is not supported by any evidence from analysis (e.g. TEM/STEM [electron microscope]) of the treated material. And it's been tried.

Don, the "pole alignment" stuff you mention has to do with the properties of magnets. They're either isotropic or anisotropic, and this is determined by their material, and/or their heat treatment, but only up near the "Curie point," which for Alnico is in the thousands of degrees. Cooling them further has no effect on their orientation.

The jury has been out for decades re: the usefulness of cryo treatment for things like tool steel and gun barrels. At times, it "seems" to work, but the differences in treated (mostly ferrous, which Alnico could be loosely termed) materials can not be observed or measured.

Where pickups are concerned, it's snake oil.

[Muddybuchfan]

I am going to cryogenically freeze a set of the Don Mare fabulous tele PUPS alongside Ted Williams head so that my Grandchildren will enjoy the great tone and great baseball that we all love.

[HighTower]

Originally Posted by Don Mare

FWIW
and thats all I care about... nothing else concerns me... Don Mare

Except taking a laundry detergent P can on your next road trip !

[Armo]

No

[GuitarJonz]

What's so hard about taking 2 identical sets of pickups, 1 cryo, 1 not, and installing in the same guitar, at the same settings, and taking some readings on electronic gear? I assume you'd be able to measure any differences, if any.

[Chris Leger]

Why install them in a guitar? Just get some metrics off the pickups themselves.

The obstacle is the cost of independent testing, and monitoring the manufacturing and cryo processes to eliminate variables.

And the pickup marketers and cryo guys are not going to do that for you. They have an opposite, competing interest.

[boris bubbanov]

Thanks, Chris.

I apologize; I just wanted to know a little of what you knew, that made you react so decisively. I hope you'll forgive me for trying to push buttons.

[Jim Nardi]

That's funny!

[Chris Leger]

Originally Posted by boris bubbanov

Thanks, Chris.

I apologize; I just wanted to know a little of what you knew, that made you react so decisively. I hope you'll forgive me for trying to push buttons.

Boris, no need to apologise to me - I guess I didn't even realise your post was directed at me.

I should probably apologise for my often-strident posts here - the thing is though, when it comes to cryo, there is so little in the way of evidence that it's particularly good for *anything* that I bristle a bit when I read claims that it will improve the performance of a speaker (?!?) when I assume we're talking about ordinary motor/cone drivers?

I mean, what the h___ is this supposed to mean?

Tests done by Honeywell on experimental thin film magnetic memory wafers showed increased conductivity of metallic layers, reduced residual stress between layers, and possible (but not fully confirmed) "healing" of vacancies in the layers.

Was it supposed to mean nothing? Because I think it means nothing. What are "vacancies?" Is such a result even desirable in memory wafers? And even if it is, what does that have to do with guitar pickups, or anything else? Why not "Martinize" them? It seems to work on my shirts.

On the other hand, I know what this means:

Please note that deep cryogenic treatment of audio components is still considered an experimental process. We cannot guarantee that all products mentioned are suitable for this process due to differences in quality and type.

Hmm... experimental, even after all these years? I would think the market would be saturated with cryo-treated audio drivers by now, since music from CDs is "richer and deeper." Cryogenics improves PAPER now? I wonder what it would do for a plastic horn lens? Do Klipsch and JBL know about this?

And even though it's "experimental," they've processed:

Stereo speakers, Transformers, Cabling and Cords, Electronic components, Printed circuit boards, vacuum tubes, Amplifiers, Power supplies, CD players, CD's, DVD players, Power cords, Interconnect cables, Speaker cables, Isolation tables, Switches, Contacts, Flexible Circuits, AC receptacles

CDs ?!?!?!?!?!?!?!? Someone paid for that?

Where can I get some of those cryo-treated AC receptacles?!? I've been using those crummy made-at-ambient-temperature Leviton ones for years now. WAIT - I think there may even still be some recording studios out there that have not made the switch to cryo-treated AC receptacles. Great business opportunity for the right guy! Hopefully a struggling used car salesman will read this.

I don't think there's much more I can say about any of this. I'm going to paste in one more quote, because this one really cracks me up:

Cryogenics started with the Super Conductor / Super Collider to accelerate particles to the speed of light. Like many discoveries made by science it works its way down to the common man, or in this case, guitar players and improved guitar tone.

OK, granted, some "scientist" somewhere seems to have confused superconductivity with freezing a part and subsequently packaging it for sale, but "Super Conductor" sure sounds cool, doesn't it?

Thank you, science!

[johnnytronics]

Originally Posted by Phaze

I cryogenically treated my truck last week when it was -5F. It sounds really great now. More airy, defined, with a crisper finish. I think I'll leave my Gretsch Americana Showdown out on the deck tomorrow night, just as a test case. Worst that could happen is I'll relic the hell out of it, thereby increasing it's mojo.

Too funny!!!!!

[Chris Leger]

I missed something in my own post. Where it says they've treated "isolation tables," I'm not sure what that means.

Is an "isolation table" some kind of actual table? I mean, the kind with legs?

[Old Cane]

Chris, I'm still confused why you are jumping this so hard. Were you frozen as a child? That's meant to be funny.

Bill Callaham was shown these threads and said he didn't do forums just for this reason. He then said he offers customers their money back if they don't like them. I just don't see problem. Whether it makes sense or not, if someone can hear a difference and like it, why do you really care? I have some that were potted in toe jam and it gives mine a real earthy sound. You just have to get used to the smell.

[Chris Leger]

Oh no... Bill Callaham has seen my posts?

I hope he isn't mad at me. And I guess I can't blame him for keeping his head down.

I'm only "jumping on this" because there isn't a shred of quantitative evidence out there anywhere that suggests cryo-treatment yields the benefits claimed in the copy quoted above, particularly when applied to guitar pickups or components thereof.

I agree with you though - anyone who happens to have these pickups and likes them should not take any of what I'm saying as a condemnation of Callaham or his products. Not at all. Taste is all in the ears, or the brain, or somewhere in between. If you like the pickups, that's really all that matters. And I admire Callaham for his bold marketing. Likening guitar pickups to superconductors and the "Super Collider" is one of the most ballsy marketing ploys I've ever seen. My hat is off to him.

But this forum is a "record" and reference of sorts. Others will visit these pages in the future, I like to stick to straight-talk when it comes to things that are not well-understood.

Anyone know what an "isolation table" is?

[HighTower]

Originally Posted by Chris Leger

Oh no..

Anyone know what an "isolation table" is?

Thats where Bill is going to strap you before he puts you through the process

[Chris Leger]

Touché.

[castpolymer]

Originally Posted by altouchet

Has anyone tried Callaham Cryogenic Lindy Fralin pickups? Are the claims they make true?

I left a set of Tele pickups in my car over the weekend when it was about 10 degrees. Does this count?

[Ricky D.]

I'll speak up for Bill Callaham a little here. I bought a bright finish bridge plate and some brass enhanced vintage saddles from him a while back. The workmanship of these parts was of the highest standard. I would expect that of any of the products Callaham makes.

As far as cryo treated pots, switches, pickups, etc., I'm skeptical about the benefits. I remember enough from my mechanical engineering days at MIT about materials. I would have to hear it under sufficiently controlled conditions to believe it was beneficial in any way.

I also don't see any possible disadvantage to it either. Bill is starting out with first rate components. I'd be glad to use any of it (except I really like my Don Mare Supersports).

[tdu]

Originally Posted by Old Cane

Chris, I'm still confused why you are jumping this so hard. Were you frozen as a child? That's meant to be funny.

Bill Callaham was shown these threads and said he didn't do forums just for this reason. He then said he offers customers their money back if they don't like them. I just don't see problem. Whether it makes sense or not, if someone can hear a difference and like it, why do you really care? I have some that were potted in toe jam and it gives mine a real earthy sound. You just have to get used to the smell.

You know what the toe jam is and you weren't charged a ridiculous amount of money though.

Chris's posts are harsh but I agree. I don't understand why he even makes pickups using the technology. It's just a bunch a fancy terms with one objective in mine. Have people buy it, and pay more for it. It's different in this case too because the supporting info posted is SO absurd. And again, I can see why Chris jumps on that.

There are people who read that though, get something out of it, and will be convinced the product is something that does sound different, and that they need to pay for before it even gets installed in a guitar. I am not knocking anyone who owns the product and likes it. But I am talking about people like me who don't have all the knowledge users of this forum have, and can be a victim of hype.

I take offense to the comment quoted from Bill Callaham that he doesn't use forums for 'this reason'. What is the reason, to avoid a little common sense before we all go insane? To question things?

I like this forum. And I enjoy learning things here. As someone who doesn't have the tech knowledge a lot of people on the forum have, I appreciate things getting deciphered and explained. And I appreciate learning about potential BS.

[Old Cane]

Yeah, that extra $5 a pair is a deal breaker.

And "the reason" is people blasting him wihtout ever hearing the things. Chris may have heard them. The benefit claims may be BS. I haven't heard them so i don't know but if I wanted to pay him $165 as opposed to paying Lindy $160, and Bill says I can get my money back if I don't hear a difference, well, what's the big deal? The US just bought a line of BS in the last election. So far, no refund.

[HighTower]

Lindy will absolutely refund your money if you are not satisfied

[Old Cane]

I didn't say he wouldn't. I'm just saying Bill is charging $5 more. If you want to try them it ain't gonna break you. I have no desire to buy them. I'm just kind of flabbergasted with the near hatred of these things by some folks.

[Chris Leger]

Originally Posted by Old Cane

Yeah, that extra $5 a pair is a deal breaker.

And "the reason" is people blasting him wihtout ever hearing the things. Chris may have heard them. The benefit claims may be BS. I haven't heard them so i don't know but if I wanted to pay him $165 as opposed to paying Lindy $160, and Bill says I can get my money back if I don't hear a difference, well, what's the big deal?

$5 is no big deal. And I have never heard his pickups. Never been anywhere near one, as far as I know. That's not the point.

Do they sound better than a stock Fralin? My guess is that they do. Callaham hints at a difference between his product and Fralin's standard offering when he says:

The pickups I have Fralin wind for us are done specifically to have a clear bass and a warm high end with a wide flat frequency response.

...and then goes on to describe cryo treatment as "icing on the cake." So it seem this is not merely a frozen Fralin - rather, it's a different pickup. I have no doubt at all that to many people, it will not only "different," but "better." Of course, the same goes for any two pickups when compared.

I also understand that Callaham makes superior parts. I've browsed his site many times. I know that he has earned a reputation for superior craftsmanship and service.

But that does not excuse unadulterated BS in the form of sales collateral. Anyone who engages in such should expect to get called on it. Saying that NASCAR teams crogenically treat "their engine components and parts of their electrical system for added horsepower" in an attempt to market pickups is beyond ridiculous. Then its taken even further with claims related to superconductivity. If the writer of that copy understood what superconductivity was, he would either not make such false comparisons, or else he did so knowing it was BS. Either way, it all adds up to BS.

Saying that his bridges are plated with the same technology used to plate the gimbals on the space shuttle boosters is saying nothing. And plating has a proven utility that is well understood and requires no explanation.

Saying superconductivity has even the most remote relationship with freezing ANY part of ANYTHING, then letting it return to room temperature, putting it in a box and shipping it to a consumer is about the same as saying that the burn rate of rocket fuel has some relationship with a guitar bridge.

If you like his pick-ups, you no doubt have good reason. I suspect I might even like them. But the claims made about cryo-treatment are pure hogwash.

I look forward to any real quantifiable evidence to the contrary. I reserve the right to consult my handbook. If I am wrong, I will eat 1 (one) small hat of my choosing.

[twangcaster1]

I've heard that they're REALLY fast! Almost as fast as a red telecaster.