Pickup Winder V1 Build...

[BadHorsie]

The drawing of the pulley on the shaft connected by a belt to the motor is spot on an will work well. Your on the right track. Keep up the good work.

[bug music]

Just an idea to build off your last drawing. How about using your existing motor and lowering it like in the drawing. Then you could use a large pulley on the motor to drive a small pulley on the shaft. This should increase your torque to the shaft if I remember my college physics correctly. Then again, I may have it backwards , but I think that's right.

- Jay

[BadHorsie]

That should work but it is going to take him forever to wind one bobbin.

[bug music]

Originally Posted by BadHorsie

That should work but it is going to take him forever to wind one bobbin.

Yeah, you're right. Maybe if the pulleys were swapped though, the larger one on the shaft and the smaller one on the motor, the speed could be increased without losing any torque.

That was the original problem, wasn't it ? Not enough torque, or was it not enough speed ? Hmm... I have to re-read some here.

- Jay

[bug music]

Ah ha. Just re-read some. Sorry for my confusion, lack of speed seems to be the problem not so much the torque. It may still be possible to use the same motor with a large pulley (or gear) on the motor, driving a small pulley (or gear) on the winder shaft. You said it stopped when you touched it, that shouldn't be a problem, there shouldn't be much drag from the wire being wound so it may still work. The fact it is easily stopped by hand may not be a bad thing. Just my guess, but might be worth trying a pulley before you ditch your current motor setup. Hopefully this helps.

- Jay

[JasonRobert]

Originally Posted by bug music

Just an idea to build off your last drawing. How about using your existing motor and lowering it like in the drawing. Then you could use a large pulley on the motor to drive a small pulley on the shaft. This should increase your torque to the shaft if I remember my college physics correctly. Then again, I may have it backwards , but I think that's right.

- Jay

having a large wheel on the motor, and small wheel on the shaft would increase speed, but i thought it would reduce torque.


power = torque * motor speed

(this is the no load measurements, so I am not sure what the measurments would be by adding weight will do to the torque... and its not supposed to represent what I am doing, just to try to explain what I mean)

Power = 2.14 * 13360 = 28590.4


If i re arrange that...


torque = power / motor speed

2.14 = 28590.4 / 13360


So now if I increase the speed to say 20000...

power / motor speed = torque

28590.4 / 20000 = 1.42952


So according to my calculations increasing speed, decreases torque. By decreasing the torque it probably wouldnt be able to even turn the shaft because of the weight of the shaft and wheels. So what I am trying to say is that If I do it the other way (big wheel on shaft, little wheel on motor) I *should* be able to get more torque.

(Now this all may be completly wrong as I am remembering this from the last time I did physics about a year ago, and even then I wasnt very good at it.)

Originally Posted by bug music

Ah ha. Just re-read some. Sorry for my confusion, lack of speed seems to be the problem not so much the torque. It may still be possible to use the same motor with a large pulley (or gear) on the motor, driving a small pulley (or gear) on the winder shaft. You said it stopped when you touched it, that shouldn't be a problem, there shouldn't be much drag from the wire being wound so it may still work. The fact it is easily stopped by hand may not be a bad thing. Just my guess, but might be worth trying a pulley before you ditch your current motor setup. Hopefully this helps.

- Jay

The lack of speed is because the motor cannot turn the weight of the shaft fast enough, which means I need more torque. I know this because the motor turns fast enough when there is no load on it.

So carrying on from the above, what I need is more torque AND more speed. By using pulleys, I can only transfer torque into speed and the other way around. So by helping the motor by giving it more torque, I wont be getting anywhere, because increasing torque reduces speed. And by trying to increase the speed I will be decreasing torque which means it wont be able to turn the shaft at all.

I have still got to think of the next route. I will just add that this is only Version 1.1 . There will most likely be a version two next year once I get this one up and running, and it will most likely incorperate a sewing machine motor, as I will have started an electricians course at college and hopefully be more confident with working with mains voltages.

[reddogbass]

You got it right Jason-

Smaller pulley on motor shaft, and larger pulley on pickup shaft increases torque, but also reduces speed. You can't do both without a motor change.

As one who also built a winder and got into winding pickups myself, I wouldn't be looking for too much speed to start with. If you can achieve 150-200 RPMs, it will be plenty.

[JasonRobert]

Originally Posted by reddogbass

You got it right Jason-

Smaller pulley on motor shaft, and larger pulley on pickup shaft increases torque, but also reduces speed. You can't do both without a motor change.

As one who also built a winder and got into winding pickups myself, I wouldn't be looking for too much speed to start with. If you can achieve 150-200 RPMs, it will be plenty.

From what I understand the pickup winder wont make good pickups if it is very fast anyway, because the windings wont be as tight at higher speeds.


I have got a few things in mind for running this on DC. Firstly I have found out today that you can make a 12vdc power supply from an atx computer psu. And I have a spare atx power supply. It also has a 5vdc output which will be perfect for the counter.http://web2.murraystate.edu/andy.bat...owersupply.htm

also, there are various heater blower motors, and windscreen wiper motors on ebay going for very low prices.

[bug music]

Originally Posted by JasonRobert

power = torque * motor speed

(this is the no load measurements, so I am not sure what the measurments would be by adding weight will do to the torque... and its not supposed to represent what I am doing, just to try to explain what I mean)

Power = 2.14 * 13360 = 28590.4


If i re arrange that...


torque = power / motor speed

2.14 = 28590.4 / 13360


So now if I increase the speed to say 20000...

power / motor speed = torque

28590.4 / 20000 = 1.42952

Umm... yeah... yeah, sure... that's it.

Like I said it's been about 25 yrs. since I took physics .
Too bad you can't use your motor, but I reckon the ultimate law of physics applies here. "Bigger is better".

- Jay

[mowcheeba]

Awesome job, Jason. This thread is great. Good luck
with the winder, when do you start taking order?

[JasonRobert]

Originally Posted by mowcheeba

Awesome job, Jason. This thread is great. Good luck
with the winder, when do you start taking order?

thanks!

well once I get this motor issue sorted out...


a little progress has been made since my last post. I am starting to get ready for the new motor. whatever I do it will need to either be belt or pulley driven, so I have taken the other bearing and put it on the other end of the shaft so it doesnt flop around when a pulley is added.... I am rather pleased with the mounting. its all square and fitted first time without any drilling out or shimming.

[BadHorsie]

Now that's what I was talking about son. Those mounts are proper and will stand up to some abuse. I think you have plenty of room to mount a motor. Are you going to extend the shaft through the other end to get the opposite rotation. Awesome job.

[JasonRobert]

Originally Posted by BadHorsie

Now that's what I was talking about son. Those mounts are proper and will stand up to some abuse. I think you have plenty of room to mount a motor. Are you going to extend the shaft through the other end to get the opposite rotation. Awesome job.

no not at the moment. I have found a few DC motors which can be reversed with the on-off-on dpdt switch which I will be testing later on this week, but by simply drilling a couple of holes I have the option of doing this if I need to.

I am going to mount the motor on the lid, and have a slot for the pulley to go down to the shaft this gives me almost unlimited possibilties for the motor as it can be as big as it needs to be. mounting will also be easier because I wont be working inside the box. and there is lots of room for adjustment.

[BadHorsie]

Great idea.

[JasonRobert]

I just purchased a ford mondeo heater blower motor from ebay for £9.99 including postage. It should be a matter of bolting it to some angled metal and running a pulley through the top.

I will also just say that the bearings are lubricated with white grease. Oil is ok for lubrication as well, but the grease doesnt "run out" like oil does; it holds better in the bearing casing better. Because of this I wont have to lubricate as often. I have also rubbed a little bit of wd40 on all other metal parts which will rust such as the screws, to help prevent rust.


I have used an offcut for the top which sort of fits. It will be ok for now, as I may have to try a few different motors with different mounting holes.


You may also notice from this picture I have painted it. there is no particular reason I have painted it, and on this build where looks dont really come into the design process, it makes no difference if I painted the pieces at the start or at the end. Now seemed like a good time because I have nothing else to do on it, and while parts are arriving I can let it dry.

The paint process is as follows:

Undercoat/sealer - I used an emulsion paint as that is what I have lots of. I have also used varnish and proper undercoat... but I usually only use the proper undercoat on guitars as it is quite expensive.

a coat of white gloss paint - This is basically what I want as the final coat, but this can be messy as after this had dried I sanded it down flat to achieve at little flatness. I used water-based gloss paint as it is easy to clean, dries quickly and is easy to brush. Oil-based could also have been used... it seems to be harder once it has dried to me, but the only problem is the oil-based I have takes ages to dry, and I dont have any brush cleaner, or paint thinner left

Final coat of white gloss paint
Final coat is the same as the first coat but re-brushed so there is a better finish.



The reason I have painted it is mainly to give the wood protection, and so that I can see the wire when it is being wound.

[JasonRobert]

The motor should be arriving tomorrow, so I have just cut out a "letterbox" for the pulley to run through.

First I mark out the hole to be cut.


Then I drill four 10mm holes in each corner (because the jigsaw blade is just under 10mm)


And finally a jigsaw is used to join up the holes along the lines. I could have used a router, but it would take longer and my jigsawing skills are far better than my routing skills.


Here is a view from the top to prove my measurments I did "by eye" are correct. As you can see there is lots of room for adjustment (and for incorrect measurements lol)

[JasonRobert]

So I took the thing to work (car garage) with me so I would have some more time to work on it.
Sorry if this is a bit long, but as the forum was down yesterday I couldnt post! and at work I didnt have a camera, sorry again!
Ok basically what has happened is....

- recieved new motor, which was a ford mondeo heater blower.
- fitted new motor.
- new motor worked fine on a car battery as it was designed for running off a 380amp 12v battery. It draws around 6-7 amps and just a bit more to get it going. The whole thing ran very smoothly but it was very fast, and had masses of torque. It would need massive 10amp resistors of around 10ohms just to slow it down to a reasonable speed.
- As you know I was going to use a computer power supply, which has 5v (for the counter) and 12v (for the motor) and a load of other outputs I wont be using at this time.
- So I wired it into the motor to have a test run. And there is something inside the power supply that trips when a lot of power is used, and tripped about a second after the motor got going. So I either had to get another power supply, or another motor. I managed to find another motor, but this time I got a motor designed for producing torque, not speed.... a window motor; for winding the windows down in cars. It didnt trip the power supply and had plenty of torque.
- So I had to convert the torque into speed, which is easy. All I need is a large wheel on the motor, and a small wheel on the shaft.
- I have also got the counter and reed switch working, and the motor spins the shaft at a reasonably fast speed.

Pictures to come later tonight...

[BadHorsie]

I am very anxious to see the pictures. Did you make brackets to mount the motor?

[JasonRobert]

Originally Posted by BadHorsie

I am very anxious to see the pictures. Did you make brackets to mount the motor?

yes, on the heater blower, it had a mounting plastic thing, and I bolted the new motor straight to that.

Its almost finished now, just got to tie all the cables up and things like that.







As you can see it is very dirty now, because of all the oil and things in the garage. I will rub this down and re paint once everything is finished.

It actually runs very well, and if keep on making the motor shaft bigger I will acheive more speed.

I will measure the speed tomorrow by seeing how many times it turns in a minute. Which will give me the rpm! it seems to be around 150rpm to me, but I will do an accurate measurement. I want to get it up to 400-600 rpm and then slow it down with resistors and a 5way rotary switch. I will use high power resistors on a heatsink and with a fan running to cool them down.


And here is a quick video of it running.

[JasonRobert]

So today I didnt have much time to do anything to it, but I have measured the speed and it runs at an average of 164rpm.

The motor shaft is build up of rubber car hoses which fit tightly together. I will add another next week and see what kind of speed I am upto then. If I need more I will use some gaffer tape which some electrical insulation tape over the top to give it some grip to hold the pulley.

The motor runs in both directions, and the counter actually remembers the number it last counted, so I could infact stop winding for a cup of tea and restart. and in power cuts it wont forget the number. When I tried the counter for the first time yesterday, it had remembered a number that it was possibly tested on. This means it can hold a number for quite a long time.

tomorrow I will wipe down the whole thing (This is the reason I used gloss paint. It can wipe down easily) and then I will fill all the little holes with filler and give it a final coat of paint. I will also get the fan running which will eventually cool all the resistors, and tie up all the cables, give it a grease and then I will be finished the pickup winder V1.1 ... for now. Pics and a proper video tomorrow of it running, and hopefully winding a pickup using double sided tape to hold it on.

In the future I may build some sort of thing to move the wire sideways, so I dont have to. I will most probably use cams and a spring loaded shaft.

[JasonRobert]

Pickup winder : V1.2

I have successfully wound a couple of humbucking pickups, and they work fine. One has a dc resistance of about 8k, and the other 10k. two humbucking coils take around 20-30 minutes to wind at 164rpm.

over the next couple of weeks I shall be making it faster (max speed to be around 300rpm) and using some resistors on a rotary switch to slow it down, and I will have a push button somewhere for extreemly slow running so I can start the wind without doing it by hand.

also what I will be doing is some sort of automatic sideways movement. I have a few ideas floating around in my head which I will draw up and be posting later on.



EDIT: I am also having a problem with the power supply tripping when the direction switch is switched.... I reckon it is the switch that is tripping it... but cant think why, or how to fix this.... any help is appreciated!

[clevengerguitar]

Hello all,

I've been lurking for quite a while. This thread really sparked my interest in building my own winder, so I did it...and for only $25. It still requires me to hand feed the wire, but I'm mentally working on an automatic traverse unit.

Would appreciate your comments.

Here's a video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2gtN-xqQBPY

[benbo]

Originally Posted by JasonRobert

I may be wrong, but I am sure sewing machine motors cannot be reversed?

This is correct, a good D/C motor is what you need, it can be reversed, also a speed control would be really good for you. I small tidbit about the reed switch, they work ok until you start getting some speed up then they skip counts and stuff, not real good for winding with any speed at all. Also with the sewing machine motor, you can always build a jig to hold a strat bobbin reversed so you dont have to turn the machine or any of that stuff.

[spankdplank]

Outstanding winder, CLEVENGERGUITAR!, and welcome to the Forum. Your rig looks very professional. After being inspired by this thread, I recently built a hand cranked winder from an open faced fishing real, a spray can cap, a 1'' X 6'' and some tape. It actually works well and the pickups I have wound sound good, but I haven't figured out a way to rig a counter to it. I have to guess when the bobbin is full and then measure the DC and peel off some wire, as needed. Do any of you winding gurus have a suggestions for a simple, cheap yet functional counter?

[clevengerguitar]

Thanks for the good comments guys. A couple of quick responses.

The round, white switch is a dimmer switch that provides speed control. I've noticed the reed switch is accurate to about 1500 rpms. I would have preferred to use an optical switch, as I have a couple from past projects, but the were not compatible with the zero voltage input trigger on the counter I used.

You're right about the sewing machine motor not being reversible, but because of the way I mount bobbins to the mahogany shoes on either side of the shaft, I can just mount the pickup bobbin upside-down to unwind.

I've gained a lot of insight from this forum. Kudos to all of you!

ClevengerGuitars

[clevengerguitar]

Originally Posted by spankdplank

Outstanding winder, CLEVENGERGUITAR!, and welcome to the Forum. Your rig looks very professional. After being inspired by this thread, I recently built a hand cranked winder from an open faced fishing real, a spray can cap, a 1'' X 6'' and some tape. It actually works well and the pickups I have wound sound good, but I haven't figured out a way to rig a counter to it. I have to guess when the bobbin is full and then measure the DC and peel off some wire, as needed. Do any of you winding gurus have a suggestions for a simple, cheap yet functional counter?

I saw a video on Youtube - (after viewing so many, I'm afraid I would never find the link again), anyway, a guy had a simple winder with an offset wheel on the shaft. The wheel acted very much like a cam that bumped a pedometer on every revolution, advancing the count by 1. If you don't want to try the calculator method (which, btw can't handle more than about 3 counts per second) try having your fishing reel bump a pedometer with every revolution. Just a thought, but I'll bet you can make it work.

BC

[clevengerguitar]

Originally Posted by JasonRobert

Pickup winder : V1.2

I have successfully wound a couple of humbucking pickups, and they work fine. One has a dc resistance of about 8k, and the other 10k. two humbucking coils take around 20-30 minutes to wind at 164rpm.

over the next couple of weeks I shall be making it faster (max speed to be around 300rpm) and using some resistors on a rotary switch to slow it down, and I will have a push button somewhere for extreemly slow running so I can start the wind without doing it by hand.

also what I will be doing is some sort of automatic sideways movement. I have a few ideas floating around in my head which I will draw up and be posting later on.



EDIT: I am also having a problem with the power supply tripping when the direction switch is switched.... I reckon it is the switch that is tripping it... but cant think why, or how to fix this.... any help is appreciated!

Hey Jason - great project. Yours is one of the threads that encouraged me to build my own.

BTW, I didn't intend to hijack your thread. Being a newbie, I didn't realize I could've started a thread of my own.

Great work..Keep it up.

BC

[spankdplank]

I tried a digital pedometer attached to the side of the drum (OK, paint can cap) that holds the bobbin. It would not count at any reasonable speed. Perhaps I could figure out a way where the drum bumps the pedometer with each revolution. I will break out the striker mechanism and adhesives (OK, popsicle sticks and tape) and give it a go. Thanks for the suggestion.

[ne4tt]

Have you considered a foot control pedal for modulating the motor speed?

Congrats on the documentation of your workmanship.

Jamie

[JasonRobert]

Originally Posted by clevengerguitar

Hey Jason - great project. Yours is one of the threads that encouraged me to build my own.

BTW, I didn't intend to hijack your thread. Being a newbie, I didn't realize I could've started a thread of my own.

Great work..Keep it up.

BC

Thanks clevengerguitar...

its ok, anybody can hijack my thread if they want - (I actually thought it was dead, which is why I have taken a while to reply ). This place is all about helping each other, and posting about your winder in my thread it has certainly helped me. You should start your own thread and post the pics, then we can have a really good look at it!

Oh and is the dimmer switch you used a standard dimmer switch?

[clevengerguitar]

Hey Jason,

Yes it is a standard light dimmer switch I bought from the clearance aisle at our local Walmart. If I remember correctly you're using a DC motor. I think your speed control circuit is probably more appropriate for your machine.

Another advantage you have is reversing the motor. I can't do that with mine, but I'm already mentally working on V 2.0 that will incorporate a DC motor and a counter triggered by an optical switch. It's likely to be a while for that one gets built though. Saving my pennies for presents for the family.

Keep up the good work!

Cheers!

Bert- Clevenger Guitars

Originally Posted by JasonRobert

Thanks clevengerguitar...

its ok, anybody can hijack my thread if they want - (I actually thought it was dead, which is why I have taken a while to reply ). This place is all about helping each other, and posting about your winder in my thread it has certainly helped me. You should start your own thread and post the pics, then we can have a really good look at it!

Oh and is the dimmer switch you used a standard dimmer switch?

[shadowfan]

Hi Jason

A few remarks that may help:

I think your motor is OK; the problem is that because of your speed control it is running too slowly and thus is way outside its power curve.

I see the brand on it is COMO DRILL; this company also makes small gearboxes that you can configure into a variety of gear ratios (I am in the US and I got them through Hobby Lobby, brentwood Tennesse, but it is a British product and you might find them locally--try Google; in fact I think Maplin may have something similar).

Also your speed controller may be just a voltage variator; it would be better to use a pulse width modulator; this just pulses full voltage on and off at variable rates. If you are handy with elecronics, it's not a complicated circuit and you could build it on perfboard like you used for the reed switch.
Let me see if I can find some links for you; will get back

Finally, you can't run the winder too fast as you won't be able to control your winding and will risk an undue amount of wire breakage.

[shadowfan]

How many amps is your power supply rated for?

Here are some links you might find useful

http://www.maplin.co.uk/Search.aspx?...gear&source=15
http://www.hobby-lobby.com/universal...QueryId=192608 (the type of gearbox I had in mind is no longer listed)

....Edit: but it's here; http://www.mfacomodrills.com/pdfs/ge...chure_1-15.pdf


Still looking for a speed controller circuit

Edit: this might be of help for the motor controller
http://www.aaroncake.net/CIRCUITS/motorcon.asp