Pickup output measurements

superbadj · June 20th, 2008, 11:33 AM

Can anyone point me to an article or whatever that gives a good overview of understanding (and how to measure) pickup output?

You know, the 7.7k, 10k...whatever ratings that are given to pickups.

I seem to understand that higher numbers mean more output, potentially muddier, and likely darker.

Why are they darker? That's one question.

I guess partly, I'm trying to figure out what sorts of measurements I like, without buying 50 pickups. And, I just like to know about my stuff.

Zhangliqun · June 20th, 2008, 05:38 PM

The number of turns on a coil is the general indicator of how much output and, on a basic level, the tone. And this is assuming the same magnet and same coil geometry (shape), etc.

But you can't look at a pickup and count how many turns of wire it has, and the manufacturer isn't about to tell you (trade secret) so the next best thing is DCR (direct current resistance, e.g., 7.7k/10k as you said), which gives you some idea about the amount of wire on the coil(s).

DCR will also vary with the temperature of the environment and can even move noticeably on your multi-meter just from your body temperature in your hands while handling it. It goes up when it's hotter and vice versa. So it's a nice spec for pickup makers, gives a buyer an idea what's under the hood, but a squishy enough figure to deceive competitors.

Anyway, past a certain point (I say in the 6.5-7.0k range, with 42 gauge wire), you start to lose both top end and bottom (though I think the loss of bottom starts at a higher spec) and you get more and more midrange. Exactly why, I don't know. Real electronics gurus would have to chime in on that. But it does, and that's why ceramics are often used on high output pu's, to add some bass and highs back in.

Magnet type and charge are a huge factor, as are the aforementioned coil geometry (shape, size, etc.), and even polepiece size and shape. But all other things being equal, more turns of wire means more output and midrange.

Different wire gauge also matters. Vintage range pu's are wound with 42 awg wire. Your typical high output pu (14k and above) is wound with 43 gauge wire (some with 44 or smaller) which is thinner, and thus creates a somewhat deceptively high DCR reading. A 14k pickup wound with 43 wire is roughly equivalent to a 11.5k pu with 42 wire.

Hopefully that clears some things up for you.

robt57 · June 20th, 2008, 05:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zhangliqun

A 14k pickup wound with 43 wire is roughly equivalent to a 11.5k pu with 42 wire.

Equivalent in output?

Zhangliqun · June 20th, 2008, 05:54 PM

Output, yes, all other things (magnet, coil geometry, etc.) being equal. 43 gauge wire also sounds slightly different, in a way that's hard to describe. It may be in part due to the thinner gauge having less "air" between the turns than 42, but I'm just speculating there.

Ethical · June 20th, 2008, 06:09 PM

Here's a primer on Farady's Law of Induction - the first example demonstrates the basic relationship between number of turns and voltage generated.

Ted

robt57 · June 20th, 2008, 07:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zhangliqun

Output, yes, all other things (magnet, coil geometry, etc.) being equal. 43 gauge wire also sounds slightly different, in a way that's hard to describe. It may be in part due to the thinner gauge having less "air" between the turns than 42, but I'm just speculating there.

Air, OK. How would you say potting effects that?

Zhangliqun · June 20th, 2008, 07:43 PM

Potting doesn't have much of an effect on output. But if the mix is too thick and/or you leave it in the pot too long, it can suck the treble and detail out of it.

robt57 · June 20th, 2008, 07:56 PM

You typed:

"43 gauge wire also sounds slightly different, in a way that's hard to describe. It may be in part due to the thinner gauge having less "air" between the turns than 42"

I did not mean output but was addressing your opinion regarding sounding slightly different.

And how about lacquer vs wax potting?

MBradford6288 · June 20th, 2008, 08:59 PM

Also, just to make things more confusing, the way the wire is wound plays a part in tone too. Scatterwinding,which is mainly found on handmade pickups, although machines can do it also, tends to be brighter and have more clarity than a machinewound parallel winding type pickup.

YMMV
Matt

superbadj · June 21st, 2008, 07:39 AM

Really interesting stuff, guys.

Just trying to learn as much as I can, of course, And yes, Zhang, that was very helpful. Some of it I knew a little bit, but you gave a LOT more info. I knew that as output increases, the treble and clarity tend to decrease. I did NOT know that bottom-end decreased as well, leaving you with more mid-tones. That's an interesting fact that is totally knew to me.

I could have discovered that through trial-and-error, but you just saved me several hundred dollars.

Thanks!

Feel free to chime in if anyone else as more info to add to the discussion. Cool stuff.

Telenator · June 21st, 2008, 08:27 AM

Please forgive me for over-simplifying but, the absolute best way I have found to judge pickups is to just play the guitar and only buy guitars that sound perfect to me as they come off the shelf. A little more time spent selecting a great guitar avoids much of the need to understand alot of this stuff.

If I have just built a new guitar, or a pickup goes dead on me, that's another story and I have often found myself trying several different pickups before determining that I've found THE ONE.

Output is one factor. You'll often see high output pickups made with alnico 5 magnets because they help create a brighter sound. Alnico 2 magnets are often used in to help give a pickup a smoother sound. Then there are ceramic magnets and all the different types of pickup constructions that have their own character.

If you have a guitar with a somewhat whimpy sound, you might try a hotter pickup. If you have a guitar with a bright sound, you might try something with an alnico 2 magnet, and so on,.............

There's no exact formula unfortunately because we all hear things differently.

Have fun!

Zhangliqun · June 21st, 2008, 03:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Telenator

Please forgive me for over-simplifying but, the absolute best way I have found to judge pickups is to just play the guitar and only buy guitars that sound perfect to me as they come off the shelf. A little more time spent selecting a great guitar avoids much of the need to understand alot of this stuff.

At best, that's a trade-off because then you have to have as much intimate knowledge of guitars/wood/etc as pickups and electronics. Part of selecting a great guitar is being able to pick one that has lousy electronics but the good wood comes through enough that you can imagine what it would be like with this or that pickup upgrade.

This means you have a wider range of great guitars to choose from because you're not limited only to those that happen to have the ideal pickups for that particular guitar -- of which there may well be as many as three such guitars in your state or region, all already bought by somebody else who ain't selling.

So at the end of the day, to me it doesn't make sense to know all there is to know about what constitutes a great electric guitar EXCEPT the electronics. Learn-learn-learn about it ALL...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Telenator

If I have just built a new guitar, or a pickup goes dead on me, that's another story and I have often found myself trying several different pickups before determining that I've found THE ONE.

Isn't that how everything is in life? You have to try things and learn about them until you know what you want. That said, I understand the frustrations with buying pu's and having them fall just short in this or that category and having to turn around and sell them and keep looking for the holy grail, all the while you keep trading $75 for $40. That's why I started making my own.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Telenator

Output is one factor. You'll often see high output pickups made with alnico 5 magnets because they help create a brighter sound.

Brighter than A2, yes. But not brighter than ceramic. Hot wound coils with A5 or below is really a medium output pickup. The true high output pu's use ceramic, or some of us will occasionally swap in an Alnico 8 for ceramic heat with A2/vintage attitude.

But back to the original intent of the post, we aren't talking about tone except tangentially as how more turns of wire affect tone. But it's mostly what makes this pickup louder than that one. As you can see in our discussion so far, there are several factors that determine output. If you want to get into tone (and why not), the number of factors is infinitely more.

Telenator · June 21st, 2008, 04:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zhangliqun

If you want to get into tone (and why not), the number of factors is infinitely more.

And at the end of the day, I'll pick up a guitar and play it. I may like it. I may not. To me, "output" or changing pickups doesn't even enter the picture. I suppose what I'm really trying to say, and forgot to mention in my previous post is, "output" is of little or no consequence if I like the way a guitar sounds. I don't have to know why, and don't have to study the subject. Just plug in, play and decide. Isn't that ultimately what we're after? A great sound?

Zhangliqun · June 21st, 2008, 06:00 PM

Yes, a great sound is what we're all after and I seem to have this same conversation over and over with folks at every guitar-oriented forum who think they're saving time and hassle by avoiding changing pickups or other components when all they're doing is spending a lot more time and hassle trying to find the right guitar/pickup combo.

It's a lot easier to find a great sound if you know how to mix the right wood with the right electronics -- because suddenly there are a lot more "right guitars" to choose from. At the end of the day you will overlook some seriously wonderful pieces of wood because they are hidden by crummy electronics. So unless you have your own personal guitar tech or some phobia of solder irons, I just don't see the wisdom of remaining willfully ignorant about the very simple electronics of the electric guitar that are very easily tinkered and modded.

But it's a free country and you can do things the hard way if you want to.

Zhangliqun · June 21st, 2008, 06:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by robt57

You typed:

"43 gauge wire also sounds slightly different, in a way that's hard to describe. It may be in part due to the thinner gauge having less "air" between the turns than 42"

I did not mean output but was addressing your opinion regarding sounding slightly different.

And how about lacquer vs wax potting?

I've never used lacquer, only wax so I'm the wrong guy to ask. As for the difference, I'd really have to A/B a bunch of 42 and 43 pu's to be able to lay it out for you because it's not really possible to make "identical" 42 and 43 pickups. But there does seem to be a difference, even beyond the differences resulting from unavoidable coil geometry and layer spacing differences, etc. If you put a gun to my head, I'd say the 42 is a bit more grunty in the mids.

Telenator · June 21st, 2008, 07:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zhangliqun

Yes, a great sound is what we're all after and I seem to have this same conversation over and over with folks at every guitar-oriented forum who think they're saving time and hassle by avoiding changing pickups or other components when all they're doing is spending a lot more time and hassle trying to find the right guitar/pickup combo.

It's a lot easier to find a great sound if you know how to mix the right wood with the right electronics -- because suddenly there are a lot more "right guitars" to choose from. At the end of the day you will overlook some seriously wonderful pieces of wood because they are hidden by crummy electronics. So unless you have your own personal guitar tech or some phobia of solder irons, I just don't see the wisdom of remaining willfully ignorant about the very simple electronics of the electric guitar that are very easily tinkered and modded.

But it's a free country and you can do things the hard way if you want to.

LOL! OK, um, I do my own own scratch built guitars and do try several pickup combinations before settling on the ones that work. There have been times when nothing worked and the guitar was abandoned. I totally understand what you're saying and I completely agree with you. But you're missing one very important thing, (as this all applies to me anyway), and that is, I love to shop! I love getting in the car with a couple gearhead buddies and driving two hours to a really cool music store and then playing everything in sight! I often have no intention of buying anything and then *BOOM* something strikes me as being exceptional!

There are many ways of going about this process and my intent was to share an alternative method that works very well for me and quite possibly others. I never buy a guitar with the intention of modding it, ever. So, when I buy a stock guitar, it has to sound terrific right off the shelf and I don't need to concern myself with pickup output or magnet types, or any of that stuff. In this era there are just so many exceptional guitars hanging right on the wall that there's just no need to get all on into it.

But when I build something from scratch, I realize it often takes a few months of playing, tweaking and listening to get a new guitar dialed in. I'm not ignorant or ill informed. I just have a differnet method of getting to the same point as you and others and I'm not sure why this is starting to feel a bit adverserial. I'm not saying that you or anyone else is wrong in their approach. I'm just offering a different perspective to achieve the same end.

Zhangliqun · June 22nd, 2008, 02:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Telenator

LOL! OK, um, I do my own own scratch built guitars and do try several pickup combinations before settling on the ones that work. There have been times when nothing worked and the guitar was abandoned. I totally understand what you're saying and I completely agree with you. But you're missing one very important thing, (as this all applies to me anyway), and that is, I love to shop! I love getting in the car with a couple gearhead buddies and driving two hours to a really cool music store and then playing everything in sight! I often have no intention of buying anything and then *BOOM* something strikes me as being exceptional!

There is a lot to be said for going down to some killer guitar place and hanging a bit. That is a genuine pleasure...

Quote:

Originally Posted by telenator

There are many ways of going about this process and my intent was to share an alternative method that works very well for me and quite possibly others. I never buy a guitar with the intention of modding it, ever. So, when I buy a stock guitar, it has to sound terrific right off the shelf and I don't need to concern myself with pickup output or magnet types, or any of that stuff. In this era there are just so many exceptional guitars hanging right on the wall that there's just no need to get all on into it.

The average guitar on the wall is definitely a quantum leap or two above what it was when I started. But it's still a BIG plus to know about Alnico grades and potting and coil mismatches, etc., etc. Mods and hotrodding are just part of the fun of owning electric guitars to me. You can make what you or your friends thought was a hopeless piece of firewood sound serviceable to downright great with just a few minutes under the hood.

Quote:

Originally Posted by telenator

But when I build something from scratch, I realize it often takes a few months of playing, tweaking and listening to get a new guitar dialed in. I'm not ignorant or ill informed. I just have a differnet method of getting to the same point as you and others and I'm not sure why this is starting to feel a bit adverserial. I'm not saying that you or anyone else is wrong in their approach. I'm just offering a different perspective to achieve the same end.

No need for it to be adversarial. You say there's no need to have this knowledge, I say you're a lot better off if you do have it -- even if you decide not to mod the guitar you just bought.

Telenator · June 22nd, 2008, 06:13 PM

I never said you don't need this knowledge in ALL cases. And while this only applies to me, I find that buying a great guitar is simply that. Buying a great guitar. It doesn't matter what makes it great. I don't know why the fog rises off the lake on an autumn morning,......., but I like it!

I think that having an in depth knowledge of guitar mechanics is far more important when I'm building a guitar and trying to uncover the sound the guitar most wants to reveal. I never try to make any of my guitars sound like anything in particular. I just try to work them until they give up the best sound they can.

Over the next week or two I will be testing a retro-fit for MIM wide range humbuckers where I have designed a new set of bobbins and had them machined to replace the existing bobbins in these pickups. In essence, I will be taking MIM WRHB's apart, installing my coils and magnets, and soldering the covers back on for appearance. I think the MIM re-issue WRHB sound very good but I want to make something that gets closer to the sound of the original.

These new bobbins are wide, like Tele bridge p'up bobbins but they're shorter in height and not quite as long so the poles will line up with the holes in the chrome covers. These are going in a '72 Re-issue partsocaster I put together from a MIM body and an American Standard neck. In this case, I have chosen alnico v magnets to start with and will come up with a custom stagger to get the best sound. No, these won't have the CuNiFe screw magnets but my research has turned up that Seth Lover was in favor of alnico v magnets for this pickup in the first place but it couldn't be machined.

Anyway, there ya have it. I'm not against knowledge. I just think it has it's place and that there are thousands and thousands of people who might benefit from not being so concerned over specs as they are about playing the dang guitar! In my estimation, no one needs to be a knowledgeable to buy a great guitar and make awesome sounds with it.

Then there's all this other stuff us techno psychopaths enjoy talking about!!!

It's all good man!

Zhangliqun · June 22nd, 2008, 09:23 PM

I rewound a Wide Range reissue for a guy. FWIW I think they're totally crummy pickups, really muddy, so if you're trying to alter them some, you're probably on the right track.

The first thing that needs to go is the cover -- it appears to be designed to withstand a direct hit from a 37mm round, but it throws a blanket over the amp. Then it's wound to 9k which may be find for the bridge but way too hot for the neck. 6.8 to 7.2k is plenty for the neck at least. The Wide Range bobbins are pretty wide, about 1-2mm wider than a standard humbucker bobbin. Has a lot of potential for use as an extra beefy PAF wind.

Alnico is a wonderful magnet material but its weakness is it can't be machined into complicated shapes, just simple bars and rods, because it is too brittle. Hence the use of Cunife for the originals.

Anyway, the whole point of a forum like this is to be "concerned" over specs, to share just this kind of knowledge that can save folks a lot of time and money in their search for the killer tone that fits them just right. Why we should be concerned about wood quality, Callaham bridges, B-benders, proper set-ups, fret size, truss rod adjustments, fret dresses etc., but NOT about the nature and construction of pickups I just don't get. Anyone who would let any kind of technical specs get in the way of practicing and playing doesn't have a musical vision or passion worth preserving anyway.

Telenator · June 23rd, 2008, 05:43 AM

I'm using 500k pots with my MIM WRHB's and I actually like the sound alot.

My new bobbins are .75 wide like a Tele bridge p'up bobbin and the poles line up with the holes in the covers. I had 8 of these machined to test.

Here's a drawing with dimensions. My machinist ended up making these in one piece instead of two. They're machined from black delrin.

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2004-...ecials.jpg.jpg

I agree with you about knowing specs and such when building something but I guess we part company when it comes to simply buying a guitar. No biggie I respect your approach. We just have different methods. At the end of the day it just has to sound good!

johnhe · June 24th, 2008, 08:43 AM

One of the original posters questions was how to measure the impedance of the pickups. I simply plug a short lead into the guitar and measure the resistance from the output using a standard multimeter. I don't know if the other electronics connected to the lead (vol and tone pots etc in the wiring harness) will impact the reading, but I think it gets a good feel for the approximate pickups output.

Regarding output, there is an interesting short interview with Gerry Amalfitano in a recent Tonequest Report where he wanted more output than his standard vintage set, but didn't want to sacrifice the top end, so he used the same wire as on Gibson PAF's but used a different magnets to brighten the sound. Pickups definitely seem to be a dark art, and the more I read the less I seeem to know!

However, in general I've found that although hotter pickups sound exciting in the short term, especially when used with lots of overdrive, over time I've been appreciating the less powerful pickups in my strats more. I've found that pickups with less than 6k ohm ratings tend to have a much more delicate, hollow sound with more highs and lows which sound better when played clean, but still take distortion well.

By contrast, I've found that pickups with 6.4k or above tend to sound a little lifeless and midrangey in the bridge position.

Zhangliqun · June 24th, 2008, 11:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnhe

One of the original posters questions was how to measure the impedance of the pickups. I simply plug a short lead into the guitar and measure the resistance from the output using a standard multimeter. I don't know if the other electronics connected to the lead (vol and tone pots etc in the wiring harness) will impact the reading, but I think it gets a good feel for the approximate pickups output.

The other electronics do affect the reading some. On a vintage range pu it tends to read about 0.2k lower "in-circuit" (in your guitar) than sitting naked on the work bench. So if it reads, say 6.6k right

June 20th, 2008, 11:33 AM	#1 (permalink)
superbadj Tele-Meister Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: roanoke, va Age: 34 Posts: 429	Pickup output measurements Can anyone point me to an article or whatever that gives a good overview of understanding (and how to measure) pickup output? You know, the 7.7k, 10k...whatever ratings that are given to pickups. I seem to understand that higher numbers mean more output, potentially muddier, and likely darker. Why are they darker? That's one question. I guess partly, I'm trying to figure out what sorts of measurements I like, without buying 50 pickups. And, I just like to know about my stuff.

June 20th, 2008, 06:09 PM	#5 (permalink)
Ethical Tele-Meister Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Norfolk, UK Age: 52 Posts: 316 1 Photos	Here's a primer on Farady's Law of Induction - the first example demonstrates the basic relationship between number of turns and voltage generated. Ted __________________ If it wasn't for bad luck, I'd have no luck at all

June 20th, 2008, 07:56 PM	#8 (permalink)
robt57 Friend of Leo's Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Lost Yankee in Nashville Age: 51 Posts: 3,230 18 Photos	You typed: "43 gauge wire also sounds slightly different, in a way that's hard to describe. It may be in part due to the thinner gauge having less "air" between the turns than 42" I did not mean output but was addressing your opinion regarding sounding slightly different. And how about lacquer vs wax potting? __________________ Leo's Great, Leo's Good, let us thank him for our... Twang!

June 20th, 2008, 08:59 PM	#9 (permalink)
MBradford6288 Tele-Meister Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 137	Also, just to make things more confusing, the way the wire is wound plays a part in tone too. Scatterwinding,which is mainly found on handmade pickups, although machines can do it also, tends to be brighter and have more clarity than a machinewound parallel winding type pickup. YMMV Matt __________________ Classical music is the kind we keep thinking will turn into a tune. -Kin Hubbard (1868 - 1930) Music makes one feel so romantic - at least it always gets on one's nerves - which is the same thing nowadays. -Oscar Wilde (1854 - 1900)

June 21st, 2008, 08:27 AM	#11 (permalink)
Telenator Friend of Leo's Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Connecticut Posts: 4,480	Please forgive me for over-simplifying but, the absolute best way I have found to judge pickups is to just play the guitar and only buy guitars that sound perfect to me as they come off the shelf. A little more time spent selecting a great guitar avoids much of the need to understand alot of this stuff. If I have just built a new guitar, or a pickup goes dead on me, that's another story and I have often found myself trying several different pickups before determining that I've found THE ONE. Output is one factor. You'll often see high output pickups made with alnico 5 magnets because they help create a brighter sound. Alnico 2 magnets are often used in to help give a pickup a smoother sound. Then there are ceramic magnets and all the different types of pickup constructions that have their own character. If you have a guitar with a somewhat whimpy sound, you might try a hotter pickup. If you have a guitar with a bright sound, you might try something with an alnico 2 magnet, and so on,............. There's no exact formula unfortunately because we all hear things differently. Have fun! __________________ Dogs have the right idea!

June 20th, 2008, 05:38 PM	#2 (permalink)
Zhangliqun TDPRI Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Los Angeles Age: 44 Posts: 66	The number of turns on a coil is the general indicator of how much output and, on a basic level, the tone. And this is assuming the same magnet and same coil geometry (shape), etc. But you can't look at a pickup and count how many turns of wire it has, and the manufacturer isn't about to tell you (trade secret) so the next best thing is DCR (direct current resistance, e.g., 7.7k/10k as you said), which gives you some idea about the amount of wire on the coil(s). DCR will also vary with the temperature of the environment and can even move noticeably on your multi-meter just from your body temperature in your hands while handling it. It goes up when it's hotter and vice versa. So it's a nice spec for pickup makers, gives a buyer an idea what's under the hood, but a squishy enough figure to deceive competitors. Anyway, past a certain point (I say in the 6.5-7.0k range, with 42 gauge wire), you start to lose both top end and bottom (though I think the loss of bottom starts at a higher spec) and you get more and more midrange. Exactly why, I don't know. Real electronics gurus would have to chime in on that. But it does, and that's why ceramics are often used on high output pu's, to add some bass and highs back in. Magnet type and charge are a huge factor, as are the aforementioned coil geometry (shape, size, etc.), and even polepiece size and shape. But all other things being equal, more turns of wire means more output and midrange. Different wire gauge also matters. Vintage range pu's are wound with 42 awg wire. Your typical high output pu (14k and above) is wound with 43 gauge wire (some with 44 or smaller) which is thinner, and thus creates a somewhat deceptively high DCR reading. A 14k pickup wound with 43 wire is roughly equivalent to a 11.5k pu with 42 wire. Hopefully that clears some things up for you.

June 20th, 2008, 05:54 PM	#4 (permalink)
Zhangliqun TDPRI Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Los Angeles Age: 44 Posts: 66	Output, yes, all other things (magnet, coil geometry, etc.) being equal. 43 gauge wire also sounds slightly different, in a way that's hard to describe. It may be in part due to the thinner gauge having less "air" between the turns than 42, but I'm just speculating there.

June 20th, 2008, 07:43 PM	#7 (permalink)
Zhangliqun TDPRI Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Los Angeles Age: 44 Posts: 66	Potting doesn't have much of an effect on output. But if the mix is too thick and/or you leave it in the pot too long, it can suck the treble and detail out of it.

June 21st, 2008, 07:39 AM	#10 (permalink)
superbadj Tele-Meister Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: roanoke, va Age: 34 Posts: 429	Really interesting stuff, guys. Just trying to learn as much as I can, of course, And yes, Zhang, that was very helpful. Some of it I knew a little bit, but you gave a LOT more info. I knew that as output increases, the treble and clarity tend to decrease. I did NOT know that bottom-end decreased as well, leaving you with more mid-tones. That's an interesting fact that is totally knew to me. I could have discovered that through trial-and-error, but you just saved me several hundred dollars. Thanks! Feel free to chime in if anyone else as more info to add to the discussion. Cool stuff.

June 21st, 2008, 06:00 PM	#14 (permalink)
Zhangliqun TDPRI Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Los Angeles Age: 44 Posts: 66	Yes, a great sound is what we're all after and I seem to have this same conversation over and over with folks at every guitar-oriented forum who think they're saving time and hassle by avoiding changing pickups or other components when all they're doing is spending a lot more time and hassle trying to find the right guitar/pickup combo. It's a lot easier to find a great sound if you know how to mix the right wood with the right electronics -- because suddenly there are a lot more "right guitars" to choose from. At the end of the day you will overlook some seriously wonderful pieces of wood because they are hidden by crummy electronics. So unless you have your own personal guitar tech or some phobia of solder irons, I just don't see the wisdom of remaining willfully ignorant about the very simple electronics of the electric guitar that are very easily tinkered and modded. But it's a free country and you can do things the hard way if you want to.

June 22nd, 2008, 06:13 PM	#18 (permalink)
Telenator Friend of Leo's Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Connecticut Posts: 4,480	I never said you don't need this knowledge in ALL cases. And while this only applies to me, I find that buying a great guitar is simply that. Buying a great guitar. It doesn't matter what makes it great. I don't know why the fog rises off the lake on an autumn morning,......., but I like it! I think that having an in depth knowledge of guitar mechanics is far more important when I'm building a guitar and trying to uncover the sound the guitar most wants to reveal. I never try to make any of my guitars sound like anything in particular. I just try to work them until they give up the best sound they can. Over the next week or two I will be testing a retro-fit for MIM wide range humbuckers where I have designed a new set of bobbins and had them machined to replace the existing bobbins in these pickups. In essence, I will be taking MIM WRHB's apart, installing my coils and magnets, and soldering the covers back on for appearance. I think the MIM re-issue WRHB sound very good but I want to make something that gets closer to the sound of the original. These new bobbins are wide, like Tele bridge p'up bobbins but they're shorter in height and not quite as long so the poles will line up with the holes in the chrome covers. These are going in a '72 Re-issue partsocaster I put together from a MIM body and an American Standard neck. In this case, I have chosen alnico v magnets to start with and will come up with a custom stagger to get the best sound. No, these won't have the CuNiFe screw magnets but my research has turned up that Seth Lover was in favor of alnico v magnets for this pickup in the first place but it couldn't be machined. Anyway, there ya have it. I'm not against knowledge. I just think it has it's place and that there are thousands and thousands of people who might benefit from not being so concerned over specs as they are about playing the dang guitar! In my estimation, no one needs to be a knowledgeable to buy a great guitar and make awesome sounds with it. Then there's all this other stuff us techno psychopaths enjoy talking about!!! It's all good man! __________________ Dogs have the right idea!

June 22nd, 2008, 09:23 PM	#19 (permalink)
Zhangliqun TDPRI Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Los Angeles Age: 44 Posts: 66	I rewound a Wide Range reissue for a guy. FWIW I think they're totally crummy pickups, really muddy, so if you're trying to alter them some, you're probably on the right track. The first thing that needs to go is the cover -- it appears to be designed to withstand a direct hit from a 37mm round, but it throws a blanket over the amp. Then it's wound to 9k which may be find for the bridge but way too hot for the neck. 6.8 to 7.2k is plenty for the neck at least. The Wide Range bobbins are pretty wide, about 1-2mm wider than a standard humbucker bobbin. Has a lot of potential for use as an extra beefy PAF wind. Alnico is a wonderful magnet material but its weakness is it can't be machined into complicated shapes, just simple bars and rods, because it is too brittle. Hence the use of Cunife for the originals. Anyway, the whole point of a forum like this is to be "concerned" over specs, to share just this kind of knowledge that can save folks a lot of time and money in their search for the killer tone that fits them just right. Why we should be concerned about wood quality, Callaham bridges, B-benders, proper set-ups, fret size, truss rod adjustments, fret dresses etc., but NOT about the nature and construction of pickups I just don't get. Anyone who would let any kind of technical specs get in the way of practicing and playing doesn't have a musical vision or passion worth preserving anyway.

June 23rd, 2008, 05:43 AM	#20 (permalink)
Telenator Friend of Leo's Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Connecticut Posts: 4,480	I'm using 500k pots with my MIM WRHB's and I actually like the sound alot. My new bobbins are .75 wide like a Tele bridge p'up bobbin and the poles line up with the holes in the covers. I had 8 of these machined to test. Here's a drawing with dimensions. My machinist ended up making these in one piece instead of two. They're machined from black delrin. http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2004-...ecials.jpg.jpg I agree with you about knowing specs and such when building something but I guess we part company when it comes to simply buying a guitar. No biggie I respect your approach. We just have different methods. At the end of the day it just has to sound good! __________________ Dogs have the right idea!

June 24th, 2008, 08:43 AM	#21 (permalink)
johnhe TDPRI Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Belfast, UK Posts: 26	One of the original posters questions was how to measure the impedance of the pickups. I simply plug a short lead into the guitar and measure the resistance from the output using a standard multimeter. I don't know if the other electronics connected to the lead (vol and tone pots etc in the wiring harness) will impact the reading, but I think it gets a good feel for the approximate pickups output. Regarding output, there is an interesting short interview with Gerry Amalfitano in a recent Tonequest Report where he wanted more output than his standard vintage set, but didn't want to sacrifice the top end, so he used the same wire as on Gibson PAF's but used a different magnets to brighten the sound. Pickups definitely seem to be a dark art, and the more I read the less I seeem to know! However, in general I've found that although hotter pickups sound exciting in the short term, especially when used with lots of overdrive, over time I've been appreciating the less powerful pickups in my strats more. I've found that pickups with less than 6k ohm ratings tend to have a much more delicate, hollow sound with more highs and lows which sound better when played clean, but still take distortion well. By contrast, I've found that pickups with 6.4k or above tend to sound a little lifeless and midrangey in the bridge position.