Neck pickup placement/harmonic node? (CC Rider)

[RomanS]

I just ordered a CC Rider pickup from Vintage Vibe Guitars; since those are wider than Tele neck pickups, I'll have to do some routing...

Now, on all pics I've seen of Teles with CC Riders, the poles of that neck pickup sit farther back (closer to the bridge pickup) than they would on a regular Tele neck pickup (where they sit exactly on the harmonic node where the 24th fret would be).
Is that done for purely practical reasons (so you don't have to change the front edge of that pickup route, just enlarge it on the sides and in the back)?

What are the tonal differences between a neck pickup placed underneath a harmonic node (like the 24th fret), or not there, but farther back (I know that was a controversial question for SG players, too, but can't remember the details).

[RomanS]

Anybody?

[Stewart Ward]

Originally Posted by RomanS

I just ordered a CC Rider pickup from Vintage Vibe Guitars; since those are wider than Tele neck pickups, I'll have to do some routing...

Now, on all pics I've seen of Teles with CC Riders, the poles of that neck pickup sit farther back (closer to the bridge pickup) than they would on a regular Tele neck pickup (where they sit exactly on the harmonic node where the 24th fret would be).
Is that done for purely practical reasons (so you don't have to change the front edge of that pickup route, just enlarge it on the sides and in the back)?

What are the tonal differences between a neck pickup placed underneath a harmonic node (like the 24th fret), or not there, but farther back (I know that was a controversial question for SG players, too, but can't remember the details).

Hi,

That's a very interesting question on a topic I've done a lot of experimenting with. In fact, I have even moved the two outside PUs on a Strat to the same locations as a Jazzmaster... and guess what... the Strat sounded remakably close to a Jazzmaster. I was not at all surprised! Note however, that the neck PU does not 'look' like it's moved very much because the neck is a 22 fret jobbie... not the usual 21 fret type you'd normally see on a Strat or Jazzmaster. Photo below.

Basically, as you move the neck PU towards the bridge, then it will sound progressively similar to the centre PU on a Strat.

Measurements should be taken from the 12th fret to the centre line of the pole pieces for SC PUs and only compared between guitars of the same scale length. From the 12th fret: a Tele neck PU is 165mm... a Strat is 168mm and a Jazzmaster is 175mm. All approx, I have not seen many that are all exactly the same so can vary + or - by 1mm (2mm overall) on Fender/Squier instruments.

On the Strat, the neck PU is only 3mm closer to the bridge than a Tele... but most players can hear the difference easily! So, this means that fitting a Strat PU to a Tele will not make the Tele sound like a Strat unless you move the PU as described.

I have made guitars with compound angles on the bridge PU. That is, the 1st string pole piece is in Strat position and the 6th string pole piece is in the Tele position. This resulted in the 'classic' Tele 6th string twang and the less bright/piercing Strat 1st string sound. I absolutely loved it! See the Genus J6M3 guitar pic attached. This has the Tele/Strat compound bridge PU angle.

Have a look at the photo and PDF attached and we can discuss further later.

[RomanS]

Interesting experiments!

So, what do you think would happen when moving the neck pickup on a Tele closer to the bridge, away from the 24th fret node (which is not a node when fretting the string on most ohter frets, anyway...)? Would it simply be slightly brighter (because it is closer to the bridge)?

[Stewart Ward]

Originally Posted by RomanS

Interesting experiments!

So, what do you think would happen when moving the neck pickup on a Tele closer to the bridge, away from the 24th fret node (which is not a node when fretting the string on most ohter frets, anyway...)? Would it simply be slightly brighter (because it is closer to the bridge)?

Hi,

Well that depends on how far you move it! I can only reiterate what I posted earlier... "Basically, as you move the neck PU towards the bridge, then it will sound progressively similar to the centre PU on a Strat."

Whilst most of the different Fender models look different, they are made from basically the same materials. The PUs do 'look' different, but if you open up a Tele neck job, you'll find it's just like a strat PU. I have not found that any PU can alter the harmonic structure of the instrument. That is purely down to the materials and fittings used, IMHO. So the major contributor to the diffeing sounds of each model, I believe, is 'mostly' down to the locations of the PUs. If you've ever studied the string motion, then you will understand that there is a varying harmonic content as you move along the string... so moving the PU will sense these changes, naturally.

Moving the neck PU will reduce the bass progressively as you slide it closer to the bridge... but also, the harmonic content will alter as well. Then, by the time the PU is in the Strat centre PU position, it will sound just like the sound you would expect from that position. Move that neck PU only 10mm towards the bridge, then it will sound like the neck PU of a Jazzmaster! Except, the wide coil of a Jazzmaster will make it less bright/focused... but you'll still be able to recognise the Jazzmaster vibe from it. That's exactly what I've done to the white/tortoise Strat in the photo.

The funny thing is, most players think it still sounds like a Strat... because that's what they can 'see'. But I promise, the sound is very Jazzmaster like!

Line6 used to make some software which enabled you to do this on a PC, without having to do it physically. It may be still around and worth checking out. It had all the popular PU models and guitars to experiment on. Pretty good idea I reckon.

[RomanS]

Well, that CC Rider pickup I'm going to put in there is quite different from a regular Tele neck pickup - it's got a wide coil like a P90, but with a single blade polepiece.
I'm not sure whether it would fit at all with the polepieces in the same place like they would on a Tele neck pickup - it might get too close to the neck pocket, so I might have to move it back a bit to make it fit, anyway - I guess 10mm sound about right, if this gives a bit of a Jazzmaster vibe - all the better!

[Stewart Ward]

Originally Posted by RomanS

I guess 10mm sound about right, if this gives a bit of a Jazzmaster vibe - all the better!

Well that's exactly it! Work out how to best safely fit it and then measure to the centre blade from the 12th fret. If it's 175mm, then you're spot on for a Jazzmaster! But 178mm will still be fine.

[Graeme]

Interesting comments, Stew ;-)

Ignoring harmonic nodes for a moment, the overall tone balance (ie the balance of lows, mids and highs) changes logarithmically as you approach the bridge. So a small movement of the neck pickup will make little noticeable difference, while the same movement of a bridge pickup will make a huge difference. One way to confirm this is to compare the 2 coils of a humbucking p'up guitar: you'll hear a big difference between the bridge coils, and little between the neck coils.

There's a reason why people notice the position of the neck pickup if it's moved from the standard strat position of 1/4 of the string length from the bridge. A single coil pickup with it's narrow focus on string vibration will not pick up any vibration of the 4th harmonic on an open string at all. You can even tap that harmonic right over the pickup, showing that this is a node for that harmonic - it doesn't vibrate at that part of the string. This gives a unique sound to open strings (alos notes fretted at the 12th fret). So if you move the neck pickup a little, you lose that unique tone, even though the overall tone balance doesn't change much.

There's more on this at my page:
http://users.sa.chariot.net.au/~gmarts/picktimb.htm

[Stewart Ward]

Originally Posted by Graeme

Interesting comments, Stew ;-)

Ignoring harmonic nodes for a moment, the overall tone balance (ie the balance of lows, mids and highs) changes logarithmically as you approach the bridge. So a small movement of the neck pickup will make little noticeable difference, while the same movement of a bridge pickup will make a huge difference. One way to confirm this is to compare the 2 coils of a humbucking p'up guitar: you'll hear a big difference between the bridge coils, and little between the neck coils.

There's a reason why people notice the position of the neck pickup if it's moved from the standard strat position of 1/4 of the string length from the bridge. A single coil pickup with it's narrow focus on string vibration will not pick up any vibration of the 4th harmonic on an open string at all. You can even tap that harmonic right over the pickup, showing that this is a node for that harmonic - it doesn't vibrate at that part of the string. This gives a unique sound to open strings (alos notes fretted at the 12th fret). So if you move the neck pickup a little, you lose that unique tone, even though the overall tone balance doesn't change much.

There's more on this at my page:
http://users.sa.chariot.net.au/~gmarts/picktimb.htm

Hi,

Nicely put. Without focussing on the physics, my contribution is to simply predict an outcome for the OP. Which is what he was asking.

I am a relatively new member here too, so treading the path carefully! My main experience is designing solid state guitar amps (SESSION), although I grew up with valves. But I am now dedicated to showing how good that technology can really be, when you take the trouble to really understand it and how to tame it. It's no where as easy as working with valves!

It is a delight to read your 'correct' use of the term 'tone'. Well done! It is so often wrongly used in the world of guitar. Amp makers say their products make "Great Tones", leading the player to believe that it is doing something to the sound that only they can by some clever and secret method! So, I wonder if they really mean "Great Sounds", as the amp is claiming to be altering the harmonic content of the signal, thus changing it into a different sound... not merely an adjustment of the ratios of bass, middle and treble... tone?

[Graeme]

Thankyou, Stew. I should have added that I think your reply was is really helpful to the OP. And on re-reading my post, it looks like my comments are directed specifically at you, but they were intended as general info for anyone. Sorry about that.

Even though I have my own understanding, I'm not really sure what the correct use of the word "tone" is, because you're right, it means different things to different people. Then marketing teams get hold of it, and it means nothing anymore :-(

And my best wishes with your solid state designs. I think the technology can be better than it is, too, but it's eluded me.

[Zhangliqun]

Originally Posted by Stewart Ward

Whilst most of the different Fender models look different, they are made from basically the same materials. The PUs do 'look' different, but if you open up a Tele neck job, you'll find it's just like a strat PU.

Close, but not 100% true. A Tele neck pu is smaller, both in width and length, than a Strat pu, and uses 43 gauge wire 99% of the time instead of the more common 42 that's used on Strat pu's 99% of the time.

Without the cover, the Tele neck will sound a little thinner and more sparkly than a Strat pu in the same spot because by being more narrow, it sees a shorter length of string than the Strat pu and thus doesn't pick up the lower freq's as well.

The effect of the cover is to suck away some of the highs, and how much varies with the alloy the cover is made of. Some roll it off slightly but most seem to throw a blanket over the amp in my opinion, which is why I prefer a cover-less Tele neck.

While I agree that the position of the pickup relative to the strings is the primary shaper of tone, the Tele neck pu will not quite sound like a Strat neck pu, even if you remove the Tele neck cover. A pickup can't alter the harmonic structure of the string, but it can "interpret" said structure differently.

[e-merlin]

Well, this is an interesting discussion. Mind if I eavesdrop?

[Stewart Ward]

Originally Posted by Zhangliqun

Close, but not 100% true. A Tele neck pu is smaller, both in width and length, than a Strat pu, and uses 43 gauge wire 99% of the time instead of the more common 42 that's used on Strat pu's 99% of the time.

Without the cover, the Tele neck will sound a little thinner and more sparkly than a Strat pu in the same spot because by being more narrow, it sees a shorter length of string than the Strat pu and thus doesn't pick up the lower freq's as well.

The effect of the cover is to suck away some of the highs, and how much varies with the alloy the cover is made of. Some roll it off slightly but most seem to throw a blanket over the amp in my opinion, which is why I prefer a cover-less Tele neck.

While I agree that the position of the pickup relative to the strings is the primary shaper of tone, the Tele neck pu will not quite sound like a Strat neck pu, even if you remove the Tele neck cover. A pickup can't alter the harmonic structure of the string, but it can "interpret" said structure differently.

That is, of course all true, but what I was pointing out is that it's the location of the PU which is the primary contributor to the 'sound'... with which you seem to agree.

Tonal balance, or interpretation as you put it, ratios of bass to treble - the limitaions of influence a PU can contribute, as you agree - were not considered in my post because the OP was interested in the difference in 'sound' (harmonic structure), if any, by installing different PUs. For the purpose of simplicity, I would treat the 'tonal' aspect as a different topic, for the purpose of this thread.

As a side issue, the meaning of the word 'tone' seems to have been corrupted somewhat in recent years in the guitar market. According to my education, tone is the balances of bass and treble applied to a sound. A 'sound' relates to the harmonic structure of different noises... like a 747 does not sound like a Farrari for example. We would not really refer to them as having different 'tones' would we? So, what I am saying is, that there are two clearly separate but linked divisions to this discussion, one of which I did not consider relevant.

Anyway, that's just my take on the matter. But yes, your assertions are valid on a wider basis.

[RomanS]

Stew,
frankly, I wasn't even aware of the differences between "tone" & "sound" - quite interesting subject, first time I ever heard about it.

From my personal experience, different pickup types (even in the same "family" of pickups - like Tele neck pickups) do make a big diference - and different wood/body types also do, I've got some pickups that sound great in one Tele, and are really bad in another one.
And I do like the sound (tone?) of certain types of pickups, like the CC Rider mentioned above, that's the mainreason why I want to use it; however, from building lap steels and experimenting with pickup positions on those, I've noticed that a few mm sometimes make a big difference, that's why I was asking.

[Stewart Ward]

Originally Posted by RomanS

Stew,
frankly, I wasn't even aware of the differences between "tone" & "sound" - quite interesting subject, first time I ever heard about it.

From my personal experience, different pickup types (even in the same "family" of pickups - like Tele neck pickups) do make a big diference - and different wood/body types also do, I've got some pickups that sound great in one Tele, and are really bad in another one.

And I do like the sound (tone?) of certain types of pickups, like the CC Rider mentioned above, that's the mainreason why I want to use it; however, from building lap steels and experimenting with pickup positions on those, I've noticed that a few mm sometimes make a big difference, that's why I was asking.

This is just my view on the subject...

If you are a designer, it's important to be precise. The word ‘tone’ has any number of meanings according to what is being discussed. And, it is true that 'tone' and 'sound' have meanings which can overlap, but for engineering reasons it is important for me to be able to separate the two.

For example: Your voice and my voice are instantly recognisable by anyone who knows us reasonably well... even over the telephone. That's because they have a different harmonic structure - 'sound' describes this in a single word. If I 'colour' that 'sound' with more or less bass and treble, then those voices will still be recognisable as you and me - we have only altered the 'tone'.

Fitting a differently wound pickup (of the same physical design) to a Telecaster will not alter the harmonic content of a sound that is produced, except for increasing or decreasing the intensity of any 'band' or 'group' of harmonics. It cannot single out individual harmonics and alter their intensity so as to make it a different 'sound'. This can only be achieved by moving the PU slightly or a lot, because the harmonics generated by the string alter progressively along the string's length. As ably pointed out in another post.

As you have correctly pointed out, you have fitted alternative PUs to your guitars and have altered the tone. But they have not changed the fundamental harmonic structure of the sound... unless of course, by fitting the different PU it has also slighty moved the epicentre of the fields of view of that particular pickup. If that new PU is wider or different in shape, then it is possible that it is not able to be fitted in exactly the same location as the original PU, in which case, the 'sound' will have changed. Like fitting a P90 or humbucker are good examples of this.

As a designer, it is so important to be accurate and fully understand what musicians are trying to say when they describe what they are searching for. Language is the only way we can learn, so perhaps, we technical chaps have to be a little pedantic about how words and technical terms are used in order to get to the real point being made by the musician. I am sure this is true of many fields of engieering, not just music.

Any amplifier or guitar can have a great 'tone'... but that's not the right word to describe the 'effect' that an amplifier can have on a guitar sound which makes using that particular amplifier special That 'special' amplifier alters the harmonic structure of a guitar sound in a particular way, to make a uniquely identifiable 'new' sound. Like the Marshall or Fender amp sound maybe.

An amplifier and speakers can alter the harmonics in a sound easily by adding distortions or 'cone breakup modes' to the sound only when it reaches the speaker, whereas a PU cannot influence any sound to that degree! In fact, I would suggest that changing speakers in your amplifier will be far more rewarding and less costly than to keep trying different PUs. But changing speakers is not such a highy developed 'after market' business... yet... so not always thought of as a viable route for many guitarists!

This is just how I see things and how I 'compartmentalise' technical stuff in order to find the real truth. Sorry if any find it heavy or pedantic... but it's the basis of how I work and make my living. It works for me!!